How can peace in Syria be achieved?

[HoverBoarder]

Two videos talking about the bombardment of Homs





The UN has been keeping a large file of war crimes that have been going on in Syria by the regime and some militia groups.

Any peace negotiations will have to determine whether evidence of war crimes will be thrown out, and whether amnesty will be given to everyone, even in cases of mass murder.

Whether or not to try Assad for war crimes (if he is still alive at the time of negotiations) will be a major sticking point between the two sides.

 

[HoverBoarder]

Speaking of war crimes...

As Caustic notes, he does not want evidence of Syrian artillery in areas where artillery attacks have taken place, or pictures of destroyed cities that show clear signs of artillery and air strikes, or witnesses talking about attacks from the regime, or videos of killed civilians. He will only settle for snuff films.

luckily for him.... they are all over youtube. Just not with the side he wants to see them on.


Syrian army executing detainee

Syrian army dragging near dead detainee into the back of a truck by dragging his bloody body face down over concrete.

Video title: Syria. Soldier Shoots Detainee in Cold Blood 1-Oct-12

Raw Video: Amateur Video Shows Syria Violence: aftermath of clashes between police and presumed demonstrators in Izraa

etc. etc. etc.

It is not a matter of finding evidence of Assad regime war crimes. Clearly you can ignore them if you are truly so inclined, but they are still blatant.


So, how do you solve it? Caustic noted before that the best solution he could think of would be for the Russians to give more weapons to Assad.

I would disagree.

 

[IDB87]

Speaking of war crimes...

Hover:

It's so easy to hand-wave away your evidence. All one needs to do is admit that Assad is doing everything in his power to prevent the evil Jihadists from taking over the country and turning it into a terrorist manufacturing plant.
Whatever his forces do to prevent that 'takeover' is legitimate.

 

[Virus]

Hover:

It's so easy to hand-wave away your evidence. All one needs to do is admit that Assad is doing everything in his power to prevent the evil Jihadists from taking over the country and turning it into a terrorist manufacturing plant.
Whatever his forces do to prevent that 'takeover' is legitimate.

And anything that isn't state-controlled media from Syria, Iran or Russia is part of the global Jewspiracy.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Two videos talking about the bombardment of Homs

That propaganda is from February.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Yeah, well the sad part is that many people seriously won't ever look at the images because the US released them.

I guess I'm not completely done. You've annoyed me.

I looked at the images, having no inclination to ignore their most powerful message because of who published them, surprising as that might sound. I asked you what they're supposed to prove. You offered no answer. What am I supposedly ignoring in these amazing satellite images of Syrian armor engaged in, or prepared for, warfare? Do you even know what it's supposed to prove?

I'm not ignoring it, I just need you to specify just what sequence of leaps you've made in order to see in that proof of the distorted pseudo-reality activists are feeding us, and on which the vast majority of us base opinions on how peace can, or rather should, be achieved. If it's a good sequence, I'll give you credit for that, but I need to hear it first.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Speaking of war crimes...

As Caustic notes, he does not want evidence of Syrian artillery in areas where artillery attacks have taken place, or pictures of destroyed cities that show clear signs of artillery and air strikes, or witnesses talking about attacks from the regime, or videos of killed civilians. He will only settle for snuff films.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "only settling for snuff films." I'm all ears here and prepared for self-improvement if you can explain. (note to mods-not taken as a personal attack, but as a possible problem with my arguments I'd like to learn about)

And also, why do you ignore the one area we have brought really detailed information on, the Houla massacre, waving it all away in favor of yet more of these pale montages of out of-context, non-studied, photos, videos, news snippets, sobbing alleged witnesses, all in a blur, when we have at our wiki the main massacre of all of them, up-close, verifiable evidence. All the "shelling" on May 25 is horizontal, facing onto the main streets, leaving bullet holes, holes in walls, roofs intact, mowing down the trees in the middle of the street, knocking over light poles, burning houses, burning crops, attacking army and military intel positions, attacking the Alawite village, seen being fired by some rebel maniac on Saad Street, etc.

Oh, why don't you go do another Google search and hit me with more things I haven't had the time to analyze and rip to shreds just yet. In 20 years or less I'll get to it, and until then you can gloat over another winnity-win.

 

[JihadJane]

Ironically enough, that is also very similar to what occurs when the whole Syrian crisis is just blamed on one 'evil empire' or another without really looking into what is actually going on.

So let me get to the heart of it.

Why do you think there is has been a Syrian civil war in the first place?


That question gets to the heart of the problem, and is also a large part of finding a solltuion.

It helps to know what went wrong in the first place if you want to figure out how to fix it.

I didn't blame it on that soothing, off-the-shelf "one 'evil empire' or another" stereotype. That's your insertion. I said the US was foremost in my mind when thinking about countries engaged in covert warfare against Syria. I was interested as to why you had chosen to exclude Western countries from your list of countries with the power to influence events in Syria.

 

[UTLonghorn]

That propaganda is from February.

Propaganda? According to who? Syrian state television.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Propaganda? According to who?

According to me, genius.

 

[UTLonghorn]

According to me, genius.

So where does this genius intellect of yours gather its facts from? The only source I've heard calling the bombardment of Homs propaganda is Syrian state television. I assume this is where you get your information.

 

[Caustic Logic]

The two vise in question are
1) Alex Thomson filming rebel celebrations and speaking to rebels about the shelling. That part is one-sided propaganda. However, IIRC, that segment also has lower-key talks with local Alawites who say they've had their people murdered by rebels just for their religion, when police were taken prisoner, Sunnis were spared and Alawites killed. Could also be propaganda. (anyone correct me if that's not in there)

2) Khaled Abu Saleh, of all people, standing over the (supposedly) artillery-killed bodies of Marie Colvin and Remy Ochlik. He wouldn't do propaganda, of course, just scientific observation of verifiable facts.

Just by luck, two points out of the (supposed) 0.1% of things I've caught instead of ignoring.

 

[Caustic Logic]

vise meant videos, and I didn't watch them. The first, I have seen. The second, just scanning it now; the freeze-frame tricked me into thinking it was just the Abu Saleh video, but it's only cited, at 3:08, and a different one than I thought, my bad. The other stuff in that, no prior research handy. Some of the damage seen (at 0:55 for example) is IMO beyond rebel armaments and likely the government's work. But it's no secret they were pounding certain targets in Baba Amr in those days, in a concerted effort to drive out the militants.

I might it again watch later with audio to see what the people in the rebel field clinic are saying. But generally, however people get into those elite facilities (like Sari Saoud, a couple districts north and a couple months earlier), they don't ever say on rebel video "these rebels put me here." So I guess it's always the regime.

 

[Caustic Logic]

So where does this genius intellect of yours gather its facts from? The only source I've heard calling the bombardment of Homs propaganda is Syrian state television. I assume this is where you get your information.

Where does Channel 4, or the Guardian, or anyone else in the mainstream media, get its information? Activist networks only. Millions of other Syrians are never asked. When anyone does ask, they're all "brainwashed" apparently, blaming a minority of terrorists (no scare quotes), just like the government does. Poor saps. Their eyes will be liberated eventually, Inshallah.

 

[Virus]

Where does Channel 4, or the Guardian, or anyone else in the mainstream media, get its information?

The 200,000 refugees that you can just walk up to and start talking to.

 

[Caustic Logic]

The 200,000 refugees that you can just walk up to and start talking to.

Maybe some of them, sure. And in this case, Channel 4 talked to some non-rebel Syrians, still inside Homs, who said the rebels were killing off Alawites, so right here we can see there are at least exceptions to the rule. But it's still the rule that the alleged witnesses spoken to are usually contacted through and pre-filtered by opposition networks.

 

[UTLonghorn]

Where does Channel 4, or the Guardian, or anyone else in the mainstream media, get its information? Activist networks only. Millions of other Syrians are never asked. When anyone does ask, they're all "brainwashed" apparently, blaming a minority of terrorists (no scare quotes), just like the government does. Poor saps. Their eyes will be liberated eventually, Inshallah.

So the media around the world have it wrong, and it's the Syrian state that's the bastion of truth. It's a shame that Marie Colvin, an American journalist who was killed during the bombardment, never got this memo. I mean, yes, she was actually there on the ground and said that the Syrian army was shelling a city full of civilians, but maybe she was just part of this conspiracy to make Syria look bad.

 

[Caustic Logic]

As I await more enlightenment from Hover Boarder, I took a look at one of his videos Syria. Soldier Shoots Detainee in Cold Blood 1-Oct-12.

I invite him, or anyone else, to review it and tell me there's not a 50% chance or higher of that scene being faked. Where was he shot? In the blood packet? Why wasn't it shown? What was the intent of the loyalist solider filming this in the first place? Etc.

And what the heck, I'll check the others, real quick. Passing thoughts only.
Russian title, trans: Syria. Shooting.: Possibly real shooting. Possibly real soldier/Shabiha guy in sneakers. Possibly not real. Possibly misattributed until I learn more.

Russian again, trans: Syria. "Arrest." Looks pretty genuine, quite brutal. It seems he's alive that whole time, apparently sobbing at the end, his free arm only maybe shilding his face during the drag. Yikes. The shovel, the kick to the face, and the whole thing suggest he's to be relieved of his suffering quite soon, however. Also, less likely to be misattributed. Violators: Possible loyalist soldiers in camo, boots and sandals (not the famous Shabiha sneakers). Possible FSA defectors, perhaps even trying to impersonate soldiers. Not sure how convincingly. Not sure what the Toyota truck they pile into suggests. The person whose boots were removed, presumably the doomed man, was apparently wearing military-looking boots. Possible soldier, possible defector, maybe even caught trying to impersonate a soldier and treated to this.

Many unknowns, unless you have detailed information to clarify this snuff film someone made and you feel quite sure fits your agenda. It's worth more study, this one. They have a fire truck (1:06). Hm. Looking again at the boots (0:17). What are those funky loops at the top? Fireman's overboots perhaps? How about the pants? What do those suggest? As I said, more study.

But then you could get me for ignoring 99.8% of the data. Everything but this, and the Houla massacre, and Daraya, and Sari Saoud, and a few others... It could get to be like that scene in the Jerk where he's listing exceptions to his not needing anything. Here, for the history-impaired.

Raw Video: Amateur Video Shows Syria Violenc
Dated April 25, FWIW, Dateline Izraa. Some people apparently shot in a city square. Most of it could be fake, but this time it doesn't seem like the case. We don't see the shooters or the shooting, that I saw, just the aftermath, injured being loaded into rebel cars (not ambulances) to go to opposition field clinics.

That's all the time I have for now. HB, maybe you can fill in the rest about just what this shows and how sure we can be of just what's the right response to it?

 

[Virus]

Came across a little article about the German left and their support for Assad.

It is grotesque to see the German left align itself with the reactionary theocracy in Tehran - because it represents a threat to Israeli- American interests in the region. One left-wing publication calls for solidarity with the "Axis of Resistance" (die Achse des Widerstands) consisting of Iran, Syria and Hezbollah.

In light of the German left's support forthe bloody dictatorship in Damascus - as well as the corrupt, authoritarian rule in Moscow -its embrace of 9/11 "Trutherism" seems almost benign by comparison.

Maybe the author knows CE.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Came across a little article about the German left and their support for Assad.



Maybe the author knows CE.

German, including the German left, are far more informed about the Houla massacre, for one thing. Rainer Hermann and Jurgen Todenoeffer both, plus others, have seen to that. Der Spiegel, etc. have tried to correct it, but it hasn't worked totally. Officially, Germany, like Turkey but to lesser degree, is officially wedded to Assad's ouster at whatever cost. But the people in both countries are not quite like the people in the Anglo-American Rupert Murdoch info-sphere you inhabit and I'm surrounded by.

Anyway, the German record on the "Houla massacre," by people most sensitized to the never again mentality best suited for judging alleged holocausts, might have colored their vision of the whole crisis. This would open them to considering the wealth of available info on so many other aspects and events that most of us in this forum and this Western world would wave away with some mumbling about coercion, and would generally never even see or know about.

But the evidence is there, you only have to seek it out, and give it a fair hearing. The Germans are looking at it. But 99.9% of the rest of us refuse to play that dictator-appeasing game of asking questions or getting specific about what's REALLY happening and what we're hellbent on demanding the nation of Syria surrender itself to.


Grudging recognition is acceptable too, you know. You won't go to jail for daring to appease the dictator just the tiniest bit by allowing yourself to stop and really think, rather than rushing back to the mantras and pale montages? Why so reflexive? Etc?