How can peace in Syria be achieved?

[Caustic Logic]

ignoring nearly all of the facts on the ground

What've you got that's not based on "activists say" or "foreign policy expert" says?

 

[JihadJane]

Sure there is covert warfare, but who would run a covert war if it was directly against your National security interests?

As I am no doubt assuming that you are referring to Israel.

No, I wasn't thinking of Israel in particular. The US was foremost in my mind.

'“Seven countries in five years”'

 

[HoverBoarder]

What've you got that's not based on "activists say" or "foreign policy expert" says?

If you seriously wanted to look at the evidence, you would have no trouble finding it.

U.S. publishes satellite images of Syria

 

[HoverBoarder]

No, I wasn't thinking of Israel in particular. The US was foremost in my mind.

'“Seven countries in five years”'

Yeah, about the whole 'evil empire' thing.

Life is a lot more complicated than that. It is easy to just pick out a bad guy, and blame everything on them, but it is much harder to spend the time looking at what really is going on.

 

[HoverBoarder]

Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad backs Syria ceasefire proposal

KUWAIT – Iran backs the idea of a ceasefire in Syria during an Islamic holiday next week and believes free elections are the right way to help resolve the 19-month-old conflict, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said according to Iran’s state news agency.

Lakhdar Brahimi, the international mediator on Syria, has proposed that both Syrian President Bashar al-Assad’s forces and rebel fighters seeking his overthrow stop fighting during the Eid al Adha festival, which starts next week.

Brahimi has appealed to leaders in Iran – Assad’s strongest regional ally – to support the idea.

Ahmadinejad said on Wednesday he had made the same proposal during talks this week with Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan, IRNA reported.

“Of course war cannot be a suitable solution and any group that derives power through war and means to continue war has no future,” Ahmadinejad told reporters after an Asian summit in Kuwait, IRNA reported.

Is Iran seriously, seriously going to back a ceasefire?


I mean, I am all for it if they do, but they have never been serious about it before.

What changed? Are they finally seeing that their best chances to retain some power in the country is to work with the Syrian people to end the conflict? Or is this all smoke and mirrors like before?


I hope for the Syrians sake that they are really actually being genuine this time.

 

[IDB87]

If you seriously wanted to look at the evidence, you would have no trouble finding it.

U.S. publishes satellite images of Syria

Oh, allow me.

>U.S. Publishes satellite images.

>Images are void because it's the U.S that published them.

Well that was easy

 

[HoverBoarder]

Oh, allow me.

>U.S. Publishes satellite images.

>Images are void because it's the U.S that published them.

Well that was easy

Yeah, well the sad part is that many people seriously won't ever look at the images because the US released them.

I was going to post one of the many videos showing Syrian regime artillery firing into cities and civilian areas, but the problem for them is not being able to find the evidence.

The Youtube channel for ghsrmena syriamonitoring alone has 2,191 videos documenting numerous war crimes from the Assad regime.




However, I don't think I want to post any of their videos right now. Although I do encorouge people who are interested in understanding what has been going on in Syria to click on the link and check it out.


It is not about whether or not there is evidence, the only real question is whether you want to look at it or not. Either because it is depressing, or because a person's bias will not allow them to.

A good interview by Channel 4 News went inside free areas of Syria to interview the people there.

 

[trustbutverify]

It seems to work like this:

If credible evidence indicates that thegreatsatan is directly participating in an international conflict, they are.

If no credible evidence indicates that thegreatsatan is directly participating in an international conflict, they still are- it's just covert.

Obviously, this goes double for thezionistentitiy.

 

[Virus]

What've you got that's not based on "activists say" or "foreign policy expert" says?

There's tens of thousands of refugees in Turkey and Jordan. It's not exactly a secret what's going on there.

What they say is that the overwhelming majority of casualties are civilian and caused by regime shelling and air strikes on civilian targets.

That's the regime you set out to cover for with your JAQ off material.

 

[Caustic Logic]

If you seriously wanted to look at the evidence, you would have no trouble finding it.

U.S. publishes satellite images of Syria

Thanks for this excellent set-up, and sorry it took a while to get back to it. I've been pretty busy.

Others, sorry to bust up the back-slapping session, if indeed I am. It is pretty cool that HB found a satellite picture. But really, just how cool?

First off, HB, I recognize that's not everything you have, just an example. What do you think it shows?

News flases, not:
Syrian military has artillery. Tanks too. Usually pointed at hardcore militants, wherever they are.

Possible news, if you had it:
* Evidence the pictured equipment was being used for some specific, inexcusable act like blowing up a functioning and fully staffed hospital.
* Any explanation for these special regime artillery shells that tear up children primarily, striking the neck/chin/jaw area, without coating them in concrete dust? Happens a lot in rebel-held areas.

Simply googling satellite images and Syria to sound fancy and facts-on-the-groundy is not too impressive, really. In contrast, we have established a few facts on the ground in Taldou (Houla). No artillery batteries to show there - maybe a tank at the water plant forward base. There, the famous satellite proof of an artillery barrage (which in turn proved the in-home slaughters must have been government-sanctioned) was just tracks. In case you missed how that satellite imagery-based claim worked out, here's your refresher. They were dirt roads to access trees in a tree farm, and they had been there for at least three months. They proved nothing about what happened the day before, but are still the best satellite-based clues around for that pivotal event.

Facts on the ground, one. Activist-analyst says, zero.

Satellite images of the "shelling" in the most relevant areas is not so clear either. The protest site, shown, nil damage, massacre sites, not shown, gov. posts, generally not shown, damage along random stretches of Main Street shown, all to buildings facing Main Street, and best hit from it. On-the ground clues suggest "shelling" damage that's all horizontal, includes lots of bullet holes and burning of buildings, especially right along main street. All of it, as the UN's inquiry once found, could possibly be the effect of mortars and RPGS, OR light artillery.

We see in the main supporting video of this shelling that it's being done by a rebel-looking guy with an RPG launcher, on the city's other main street, rebel-controlled, with the biggest massacres occurring at its south end. And between two and five of the five security posts were violently overrun by some kind of pretty effective rebel attack the same day, in the early afternoon, just before the massacres started.

But activists-including at the State Dept., UN, media consultants, well, they have their own opinions on what 2+2 equals...

It is not about whether or not there is evidence, the only real question is whether you want to look at it or not. Either because it is depressing, or because a person's bias will not allow them to.

I could only word that slightly better as a response to you. I recognize the futility of trying to engage with you on this, just thought I should take a minute to call that fact out.

 

[Caustic Logic]

There's tens of thousands of refugees in Turkey and Jordan. It's not exactly a secret what's going on there.

What they say is that the overwhelming majority of casualties are civilian and caused by regime shelling and air strikes on civilian targets.

That's not facts on the ground, but people saying things on the ground. Unless you can show all of these refugees have spoken, free of duress, and told the unvarnished truth, it means only so much.

It's not nothing, it's a cluster of evidence that should be considered, not just taken as fact. They could just be selectively channeled by opposition people to have their frinds say Assad is killing us for protesting or being Sunni. Taking that as fact carries dangers most people don't seem to give rip about.

And even if what they say is technically true, how do you know that by civilian they don't mean the well-armed, false-flagging child-slasher civilians of the foreign-backed and Turkey-hosted Free Syrian Army? Or that the people talking aren't members, or family of members?

That's the regime you set out to cover for with your JAQ off material.

And I never said I was just asking questions. It's answers I'm after. You think you've already got yours, supplied ready-made by activists around the world. Fine. I don't. You shouldn't.

 

[Toontown]

It seems to work like this:

If credible evidence indicates that thegreatsatan is directly participating in an international conflict, they are.

If no credible evidence indicates that thegreatsatan is directly participating in an international conflict, they still are- it's just covert.

Obviously, this goes double for thezionistentitiy.

But...but that would be insane, if it worked like that.

So, by saying it works like that, you're suggesting, i.e., that some people are just plain nuts - without naming any names.

I've been thinking that myself, about a lot of forum rats, for a long time. And saying it sometimes. And getting banned sometimes for saying it. And possibly getting banned this time on some wierd technicality like maybe accusing you of calling people crazy when you didn't actually call any specific people crazy in so many words.

 

[HoverBoarder]

Thanks for this excellent set-up, and sorry it took a while to get back to it. I've been pretty busy.

Others, sorry to bust up the back-slapping session, if indeed I am. It is pretty cool that HB found a satellite picture. But really, just how cool?

First off, HB, I recognize that's not everything you have, just an example. What do you think it shows?

News flases, not:
Syrian military has artillery. Tanks too. Usually pointed at hardcore militants, wherever they are.

Possible news, if you had it:
* Evidence the pictured equipment was being used for some specific, inexcusable act like blowing up a functioning and fully staffed hospital.
* Any explanation for these special regime artillery shells that tear up children primarily, striking the neck/chin/jaw area, without coating them in concrete dust? Happens a lot in rebel-held areas.

Simply googling satellite images and Syria to sound fancy and facts-on-the-groundy is not too impressive, really. In contrast, we have established a few facts on the ground in Taldou (Houla). No artillery batteries to show there - maybe a tank at the water plant forward base. There, the famous satellite proof of an artillery barrage (which in turn proved the in-home slaughters must have been government-sanctioned) was just tracks. In case you missed how that satellite imagery-based claim worked out, here's your refresher. They were dirt roads to access trees in a tree farm, and they had been there for at least three months. They proved nothing about what happened the day before, but are still the best satellite-based clues around for that pivotal event.

Facts on the ground, one. Activist-analyst says, zero.

Satellite images of the "shelling" in the most relevant areas is not so clear either. The protest site, shown, nil damage, massacre sites, not shown, gov. posts, generally not shown, damage along random stretches of Main Street shown, all to buildings facing Main Street, and best hit from it. On-the ground clues suggest "shelling" damage that's all horizontal, includes lots of bullet holes and burning of buildings, especially right along main street. All of it, as the UN's inquiry once found, could possibly be the effect of mortars and RPGS, OR light artillery.

We see in the main supporting video of this shelling that it's being done by a rebel-looking guy with an RPG launcher, on the city's other main street, rebel-controlled, with the biggest massacres occurring at its south end. And between two and five of the five security posts were violently overrun by some kind of pretty effective rebel attack the same day, in the early afternoon, just before the massacres started.

But activists-including at the State Dept., UN, media consultants, well, they have their own opinions on what 2+2 equals...



I could only word that slightly better as a response to you.

Listen, I get that you have your own agenda, and that in and of itself is fine.

The problem is that you have to purposefully put in an enormous effort to avoid the information on regime attacks in Syria. There is about 95%-99% of the information coming out of Syria that you ignore because it does not fit the narrative that you would like to believe.

That's definitely your choice, but it has nothing to do with understanding what is going on in Syria.



Syria: Airstrikes leave dozens dead

Syrian warplanes hammered a strategic city captured by rebels, leaving behind scenes of carnage captured Thursday on amateur videos that showed a man holding up two child-sized legs and another carrying a dismembered arm.

Assad ups campaign before Brahimi visit

BEIRUT/MAARET AL-NUMAN, Syria: Syrian fighter jets blasted the strategic rebel-held town of Maaret al-Numan Thursday, killing dozens and adding urgency to truce calls by peace envoy Lakhdar Brahimi, scheduled to arrive in Damascus Friday.

Rescuers said bombs destroyed two residential buildings and a mosque, where many women and children were taking refuge, in the strategic northwestern town, which was captured by rebels Oct. 9 in a push to create a buffer zone along the Turkish border.

“We have recovered 44 corpses from under the rubble,” one worker told an AFP correspondent at the scene.

In a field hospital, the correspondent saw at least 32 bodies wrapped in white sheets, including six children and many mutilated corpses, as well as plastic bags marked “body parts.”

“At the moment it seems only three people survived the attack, including a 2-year-old child,” said medic Jaffar Sharhoub. “He survived in the arms of his dead father.”

Several fighter jets flew over Maaret al-Numan and the surrounding area throughout Thursday morning.

They made short dives to drop at least 10 bombs on the town and its eastern outskirts, near the besieged Wadi Deif army base which came under heavy bombardment by the rebels.

In Cold Blood

Summary Executions by Syrian Security Forces and Pro-Government Militias

I recognize the futility of trying to engage with you on this, just thought I should take a minute to call that fact out.

You can use that as an excuse all you want, but that is not a substitute for real, genuine, and honest information.

Look at the picture of the destroyed houses above, and other pictures of destroyed cities in Syria that have reported being hit by Syrian artillery and air strikes.

What else could honestly have caused that? I am not talking about a claim of some guy with an RPG in Houla, I am talking about serious, honest analysis.

It is all part of the 95%-99% of information that you are choosing to ignore.

 

[HoverBoarder]

There's tens of thousands of refugees in Turkey and Jordan. It's not exactly a secret what's going on there.

What they say is that the overwhelming majority of casualties are civilian and caused by regime shelling and air strikes on civilian targets.

That's the regime you set out to cover for with your [bad] material.

I disagree with your word choice, but the point you bring up is actually a very good one. There are hundreds of thousands of Syrian refugees.

The majority of those interviewed describe many cases of mass killings and abuses from the Syrian regime.

You have to seriously go out of your way to find those people who are in favor of the government, and who also disagree with the mass number of people who describe the war crime actions of the Assad regime.

At some point it has to become apparant that if someone is working that hard to ignore over 95%-99% of the information coming out of Syria, than they are nowhere close to being honest.


I would note again that:

We all have bias.

It is our ability to be honest about our own bias and put forth fact based, rational arguments that decides whether our ideas are substantive or not.

 

[HoverBoarder]

It is good that Brahimi has been working on a path towards peace, but it looks like he will have to work harder to get a plan together that is more solid.

The regime has ruled out a ceasfire form occuring:

Syria dismisses cease-fire without rebel leaders

The Syrian government says the international envoy's call for a holiday cease-fire is pointless because the rebels have no unified leadership to sign it.

Lakhdar Brahimi asked Iranian officials to help broker a truce during the Muslim holiday Eid al-Adha later this month.

The excuse provided by the regime for why they would not agree to a ceasefire required that the FSA not be in existence before they would halt, or even reduce the regime attacks on Syrian cities.

 

[JihadJane]

Yeah, about the whole 'evil empire' thing.

Life is a lot more complicated than that. It is easy to just pick out a bad guy, and blame everything on them, but it is much harder to spend the time looking at what really is going on.

Bland, empty hand wave.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Yeah, that was about all the time I could spare for futility. It's HB's thread, and I'll just let him have, explain, and gloat over his amazing winnity-win. I've got too many things to 99.9% ignore, and agendas to fulfill!

 

[HoverBoarder]

Yeah, that was about all the time I could spare for futility. It's HB's thread, and I'll just let him have, explain, and gloat over his amazing winnity-win. I've got too many things to 99.9% ignore, and agendas to fulfill!

Another excuse.

That does not provide a rebuttal for any of the information about regime attacks. Including the air/artillery attacks I noted on this page.

Your choice, but your response was not serious.

 

[HoverBoarder]

Bland, empty hand wave.

Ironically enough, that is also very similar to what occurs when the whole Syrian crisis is just blamed on one 'evil empire' or another without really looking into what is actually going on.

So let me get to the heart of it.

Why do you think there is has been a Syrian civil war in the first place?


That question gets to the heart of the problem, and is also a large part of finding a solltuion.

It helps to know what went wrong in the first place if you want to figure out how to fix it.

 

[HoverBoarder]

One of the largest hindrances to peace is what would be done with all of the detained Syrians who at best hope are being tortured in the Regime's many large detention centers.

Their families hope that they are just being tortured, because the alternative would mean that they would be dead.


Up to 28,000 Syrians have 'disappeared' since uprising began

Many civilians abducted by government forces are believed to be dead or being tortured in detention, rights groups claim

Up to 28,000 Syrians have disappeared over the past 19 months, with civilians snatched from the streets or forcibly abducted by government troops or security forces, human rights groups say.

Relatives had been unable to discover the fate of their loved ones. Many of those abducted were almost certainly dead, while others were alive and being held in Syrian prisons or secret detention centres where they were tortured, the groups claimed.

Since the uprising against President Bashar al-Assad began in March 2011, government forces had "disappeared" peaceful protesters on an unprecedented scale, the groups said. Some campaigners have estimated the number of those who have vanished could be as high as 80,000.

A harrowing film released on Thursday by the global campaign network Avaaz shows disturbing footage of forced disappearances. In one incident, three soldiers grab two women dressed in black abayas walking down a street. They hit them and drag them away. In another, soldiers abduct a Syrian man, yanking him by the hair past a tank.

Alice Jay, Avaaz's campaign director, said: "Syrians are being plucked off the street by Syrian security forces and paramilitaries and being 'disappeared' into torture cells. Whether it is women buying groceries or farmers going for fuel, nobody is safe.