Gillard labels Abbott a misogynist

[Akhenaten]



 

[Hallo Alfie]

I generally like Tony Jones, but that man gets way too carried away sometimes. At the end of the day, who cares what one definition says? We create the dictionary, and we change the meaning of words at our whim. If there's grounds to argue that a word is being used arrantly incorrectly, then it's a good reference tool for correction. However, when a word has been observed to have quite clearly morphed from referring exclusively to someone who hates women to someone who believes men are superior to women, diving into a dictionary and having a whinge is a petty and utterly desperate reaction, like playing Pictionary with a really over-sensitive person; "Actually, that image of a butterfly reminds me of the swastika. Take it back, immediately."

You go in for the humpty dumpty doctrine too I see.

Lewis Carroll
http://sabian.org/looking_glass6.php

'I don't know what you mean by "glory",' Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. 'Of course you don't — till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'
'But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.''The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all.'

But do feel free to keep on changing the rules.

 

[Krikkiter]

Does this mean that any thread on Australian politics will end up with "Juliar" insertions?

 

[Locknar]

Please remember to stay on topic (which is not Poe or horses) and address the argument vs attack the arguer.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Locknar

 

[Legend]

You go in for the humpty dumpty doctrine too I see.

You should really keep reading so that you don't entirely miss the point of the passage.

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that’s all."
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again.

"They've a temper, some of them—particularly verbs, they're the proudest—adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs—however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That’s what I say!"

This exchange essentially poses a question: does language control us, or do we control language? As I said, the "word has been observed to have quite clearly morphed from referring exclusively to someone who hates women to someone who believes men are superior to women". If you are going to ignore this so that you can scrounge together the skeleton of a defence, which I add is an infinitely childish approach, you're just being stubborn. It's not like we're reinventing words freely, you're just 100 metres behind the play.

I'm not quite done yet, though.

You seem to operate under this illusion that Humpty Dumpty's arbitrary assignment of meaning to words was intended by Carroll to label those who use words in a malleable fashion as foolish or lazy. While this issue per se is the cause of many a tussle between logophiles, Lewis Carroll was digging at a satirical meaning that you have missed.

"I maintain that any writer of a book is fully authorised in attaching any meaning he likes to a word or phrase he intends to use. If I find an author saying, at the beginning of his book, "Let it be understood that by the word 'black' I shall always mean 'white,' and by the word 'white' I shall always mean 'black,'" I meekly accept his ruling, however injudicious I think it."

You see? After all the theatrics, Lewis Carroll is just asking for specification, not denying people the ability to use words in a way that is a little removed from the original meaning.

You've got to at least try, Alfie.

But do feel free to keep on changing the rules.

They aren't rules, but if they were, humans would be the ones writing them. You're trying to pretend that the rules haven't been changed.

 

[Damien Evans]

I swear if I didn't know better I'd think you are channeling Joh Bjelke-Petersen

 

[Hallo Alfie]

They aren't rules, but if they were, humans would be the ones writing them. You're trying to pretend that the rules haven't been changed.

Not at all. What I am saying is that people are making things up as they go along, allowing words to mean whatever they like: That this word 'misogynist' has been used in a way that it was not intended nor defined, and the attempts to change its meaning, after the fact, are rather desperate.

In every dictionary and google search I have made so far, I find "woman (or girl) hater" or similar, as the definition.

Like I said, desperate is the sound of the Gillard apologists and the backpedaling is deafening.

And still nothing that shows Abbott to be a woman hater - I guess Gillard was lying again - she does have form you know.

 

[Laton]

In every dictionary and google search I have made so far, I find "woman (or girl) hater" or similar, as the definition.

How hard did you look? The first link I got doing a search for 'dictionary' in Google took me too Dictionary.com:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/misogyny

mi·sog·y·ny
noun
hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women.

Another good one from http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/misogyny

Misogyny is the hatred of women. Whenever someone thinks that all women share one trait — usually something negative — that’s misogyny.

The noun misogyny, pronounced "miss-AH-jih-nee," comes from the Greek word misogynia, which means “woman-hater.” Misogyny is prejudice — like bigotry or racism — that’s directed toward women. Misogyny takes many forms, from hiring a less-qualified male job candidate instead of a woman to excluding women from joining a club, just because of their gender.

Bolding mine - thats sounds an awful lot like Abbotts' men being more suitable for the exercise of authority attitude.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/american-english/misogynist

someone, usually a man, who hates women or believes that men are much better than women

Just found this on the ABC website

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-17/misogyny-redefined-after-gillard-speech/4317468

Ms Gillard accused Opposition Leader Tony Abbott of being a misogynist during a speech last week in the Lower House.

The current edition of the dictionary defines misogyny as "hatred of women".

But the dictionary's editor, Sue Butler, says the definition will be broadened because usage of the word has evolved over the past few decades.

She says it no longer refers just to a pathological hatred of women, and the definition will be changed to include an entrenched prejudice against women.

Emphasis mine.

 

[Magenta]

Cunning feminist plot succeeds:

Macquarie Dictionary has last word on misogyny

Ms Gillard branded Mr Abbott a hypocritical misogynist last week in the debate over the fate of former speaker Peter Slipper in a vigorous speech widely noticed overseas. Part of the criticism related to her use of the word, as well as her defence of Mr Slipper, author of salacious phone texts about women.

So the Macquarie Dictionary’s five core authors decided on Tuesday the word needed two definitions, seeing as the continuing political debate on “misogyny and sexism” had catapulted it into the vernacular.

When finalised, the new definition will appear in the online version of the Macquarie this year and in the printed version in late 2013.

“Misogyny was strict hatred of women and it probably does need a second definition to cover entrenched prejudices of women, as opposed to an out and out fundamental horror at women,” dictionary editor Sue Butler told The Australian Financial Review.

“We need to add a second definition, which is slightly stronger than sexist but heading in that direction towards entrenched prejudice rather than a visceral hatred.”

Link

In case anyone actually thinks this is a feminist plot, I pointed out in an earlier post that the Oxford English Dictionary included the expanded definition in their 2002 update. The value of the OED is that, unlike most dictionaries, it shows how the meaning of words changes over time and around the world.


Ha, Laton beat me to it!

 

[bit_pattern]

Cunning feminist plot succeeds:




In case anyone actually thinks this is a feminist plot, I pointed out in an earlier post that the Oxford English Dictionary included the expanded definition in their 2002 update. The value of the OED is that, unlike most dictionaries, it shows how the meaning of words changes over time and around the world.


Ha, Laton beat me to it!

The online version still has the technical definition as far as I can see. Do you have an online source, would like it for another forum

 

[Magenta]

The online version still has the technical definition as far as I can see. Do you have an online source, would like it for another forum

The OED? Subscription only, I'm afraid. I accessed it through the State Library of Queensland using my public library membership.

There are different Oxford dictionaries, which may create some confusion.

 

[Magenta]

Well, no one could have seen this coming:

THE opposition has attacked the Macquarie Dictionary for deciding to water down the meaning of the word "misogyny" following Julia Gillard’s use of the term to attack Tony Abbott.

Manager of Opposition Business Christopher Pyne told The Australian the decision to broaden the meaning from the "hatred of women" to include a "deep prejudice against females" did not reflect well on the national dictionary.

“If Macquarie changes its definition of misogyny to something other than what it is, it undermines Macquarie Dictionary in its entirety,” he said.

Link

 

[bit_pattern]

Well, no one could have seen this coming:

Because language never changes

 

[Legend]

Not at all. What I am saying is that people are making things up as they go along, allowing words to mean whatever they like: That this word 'misogynist' has been used in a way that it was not intended nor defined, and the attempts to change its meaning, after the fact, are rather desperate.

In every dictionary and google search I have made so far, I find "woman (or girl) hater" or similar, as the definition.

Like I said, desperate is the sound of the Gillard apologists and the backpedaling is deafening.

And still nothing that shows Abbott to be a woman hater - I guess Gillard was lying again - she does have form you know.

At this stage, this discussion is about 35-nil.

 

[Laton]

Pyne, after hearing about the Macquarie Dictionary change:

 

[bit_pattern]

The OED? Subscription only, I'm afraid. I accessed it through the State Library of Queensland using my public library membership.

There are different Oxford dictionaries, which may create some confusion.

Found this, is an interesting read

http://www.theglobalmail.org/mobile/feature/word-of-the-day/421/

 

[MG1962]

Just a point of order. The Oxford English Dictionary is not the official dictionary of Australian English. You all need to pull out your Macquaries and see what it has to say on the subject

 

[MG1962]

And still nothing that shows Abbott to be a woman hater - I guess Gillard was lying again - she does have form you know.

Was it a core or non core statement?

 

[Magenta]

Found this, is an interesting read

http://www.theglobalmail.org/mobile/feature/word-of-the-day/421/

It is, yes. That's where I came across the Safire article.

over the past couple of days — ever since Julia Gillard flayed Abbott for his undeniable sexism — even the sober types at the ABC were singing from the same song sheet as the right wing claquers like Piers Akerman, Andrew Bolt and Paul Sheehan. Or, more correctly reciting from the same page of an abridged dictionary.

New dictionaries for everyone!

Just a point of order. The Oxford English Dictionary is not the official dictionary of Australian English. You all need to pull out your Macquaries and see what it has to say on the subject

Did you see posts 308 & 309?

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Now all that's needed is a case to show Abbott guilty under the brand new definition.

What were they? Hate, extreme distrust or dislike.

Back to you guys.

For the record, I don't think he is any of these. I think he probably dislikes a few women, I think he may even hate (although that is a strong word) one or two and I think he even mistrusts one in particular. But you are talking about a massive prejudice against all women, that just isn't anywhere in evidence.

I am still on very firm ground.