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The crucifixion of Jesus Christ

PeaceCrusader said:
You are unclear how the month of Nisan where the Passover Festival is presently held gets moved into Summer. No, it was not moved. The Jews were using two calendars during the time of Jesus – a purely lunar calendar where Passover Festival was and a lunisolar calendar. Passover Festival was in the purely lunar calendar so it was wandering through the seasons. When Jesus was crucified, Passover Festival was in August, in the Jewish month of Av, a summer month.
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Ok, so there was the religious, 12 month, Muslim style floating calendar that dictated the timing of Pesach, to be celebrated "in the first month" according to the Bible. That was the first month of the purely lunar year. It wasn't the month of Nisan.

But Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashannah, and Sukhot were all marked by the civic calendar, and occurred in Tishri, which was always a fall month.

So there are a couple of questions that come up. First, is there any evidence outside of the Bible for this purely lunar calendar, which rotates the months through the seasons? There are several documents in existence from before or shortly after the time of Christ in which Nisan is named as the month of the passover. Is there any document that says it was ever at any time other than the spring,or that there was a rotating calendar?

Second, Leviticus does say that Pesach shall be held in the first month, not naming Nisan as the month. However, it also says that Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, and Sukhot are all in the seventh month. So how could Jesus be crucified in the first month, but then, shortly thereafter, ascend into heaven in the seventh month during the Sukhot. Regardless of what season things are in, Sukhot is still six months after Pesach, at least according to Leviticus.
 
PeaceCrusader said:
@Primus, #104

No, Primus, I did not forget the date and time stamp on the post. I find it irrelevant to you but relevant to me. What is relevant for you to know is the poster I am answering and the message number.

You ask Robrob about the “quote” feature. He is the one who is knowledgeable about it.
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There is a button that says "quote" on the bottom right hand corner of the post you want to reply to. When you press it the reply box already has the post you are replying to in the quotation function. You just type your message in below as I have here.

As you can see your message above mine you know I'm replying to you without me having to write @PeaceCrusader at the top of the post.

Why don't you give it a try, it really isn't hard and it's much easier for everyone else reading the thread if they can see what you're replying to.

Putting the E in JREF there for you :)
 
Meadmaker said:
...There are several documents in existence from before or shortly after the time of Christ in which Nisan is named as the month of the passover. Is there any document that says it was ever at any time other than the spring,or that there was a rotating calendar? ...
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Does a transcript of a seance held in the Philippines count?
 
PeaceCrusader said:
Did you know that the crucifixion was symmetrical? The Holy Bible tells us that there were two thieves on either side of Jesus. Jesus was in the middle (Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:33; John 19:18).

Two nails were used for each foot of Jesus. Dimas, the thief who asked Jesus to take him where He was going, was on the right side of Jesus. Only one nail was used to nail Dimas’ right foot over his left foot. Hestas, the thief on the left side of Jesus, even insulted and hurled abuse to Him. Only one nail also was used to nail Hestas’ left foot over his right foot.
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So if I tell you that I parked my Honda between two Toyotas yesterday afternoon, it is logical to infer that both Toyotas were the same year, model and color, and that one of them had left hand drive and the other right hand drive. Also, it goes without saying that my Honda must be a motorcycle or a single-seat open-wheel race car, because logically we have to infer that the simple symmetry found in the only information we have regarding the situation must extend to all aspects of said situation. Right?

But you seem so focussed on, and so certain of your baseless assertion of symmetry that you have completely missed the glaring inconsistency of the gospel accounts that you mention. The author of Mark only mentions that Jesus was executed between two bandits and that "Those who were crucified with him also taunted him". The author of Matthew, who used Mark as a source, mentions the two criminals, and again states that both of them mocked Jesus along with everyone else. The author of Luke, on the other hand, is the only one to report that one of the criminals spoke up to defend Jesus. The author of John merely repeats the detail about two criminals, but says nothing about them mocking or praising Jesus at all.

So which contradictory account is true? Did both criminals mock Jesus for his apparent inability to save himself, or did one of the criminals praise Jesus and speak out in his defense?
 
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And then he popped up hale and hearty three days later and skyballed it to Heaven. Some "sacrifice".

Ever watched an Ethiopian child who suffers every day for 8 years until he starves to death? Seems more worthy of being a sacrifice than Jesus, since he suffered about a thousand times more.
 
Foster Zygote said:
So if I tell you that I parked my Honda between two Toyotas yesterday afternoon, it is logical to infer that both Toyotas were the same year, model and color, and that one of them had left hand drive and the other right hand drive. Also, it goes without saying that my Honda must be a motorcycle or a single-seat open-wheel race car, because logically we have to infer that the simple symmetry found in the only information we have regarding the situation must extend to all aspects of said situation. Right?

But you seem so focussed on, and so certain of your baseless assertion of symmetry that you have completely missed the glaring inconsistency of the gospel accounts that you mention. The author of Mark only mentions that Jesus was executed between two bandits and that "Those who were crucified with him also taunted him". The author of Matthew, who used Mark as a source, mentions the two criminals, and again states that both of them mocked Jesus along with everyone else. The author of Luke, on the other hand, is the only one to report that one of the criminals spoke up to defend Jesus. The author of John merely repeats the detail about two criminals, but says nothing about them mocking or praising Jesus at all.

So which contradictory account is true? Did both criminals mock Jesus for his apparent inability to save himself, or did one of the criminals praise Jesus and speak out in his defense?
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@Foster Zygote, #149

We are not talking here about cars. We are talking here about nails used in the crucifixion. The four gospels tell us that there were three people crucified, with Jesus in the center.

The spirit of Ama told us that there were four nails used to nail Jesus on the cross and three to each of the two thieves; the names of the two thieves and how their feet were nailed; that Saint Helena, the mother of the Roman Emperor Constantine the Great, about 300 years after the crucifixion, found twelve nails in all, eight rusty and four not rusty; that a nail used in Jesus was thrown into the sea when Pontius Pilate was buried to calm the relentless storm. This nail floated and reached Paris which Saint James found. So there was a total of thirteen nails. If ten nails were used to nail the men to their respective crosses, the three were used to nail the signs.

Some of these are also found in His recommended Holy Bible supplement of “Awit at Salaysay ng Pasiong Mahal ni Hesukristong Panginoon Natin” (“Songs and Narratives of the Holy Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ”) or “Pasiong Mahal” or “Pasyon” for short.

I did not know these. Ama revealed them to us which I am sharing to you. Believe it or not.
 
pakeha said:
Does a transcript of a seance held in the Philippines count?
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@pakeha, #148

I share to you what Ama said, the text translated to English to the best of my ability. That is my translation. If you do not understand it, please ask and I will elaborate. “Asking question is way to knowledge.” If you don’t ask, you may remain an ignoramus.

It is your decision to accept or not what Ama say. What I can say is that from 1983 to 1994, I doubted that Ama is the spirit of Jesus Christ Himself, even though He hinted that He is. It was in 1994 that I accepted that He is, based on what I discovered that year which I believe could not have happened had God made it so – the bold letters A-M-A in a published article about the calendar, 888 as the number of Jesus, the post office box configuration, our arrival in Australia in August of 1988. Are these coincidences?

I use the Holy Bible as primary reference. However, I try to use documents other than the Bible or Ama also. For example, the accounts made by the first century AD historian Flavius Josephus.
 
Primus said:
There is a button that says "quote" on the bottom right hand corner of the post you want to reply to. When you press it the reply box already has the post you are replying to in the quotation function. You just type your message in below as I have here.

As you can see your message above mine you know I'm replying to you without me having to write @PeaceCrusader at the top of the post.

Why don't you give it a try, it really isn't hard and it's much easier for everyone else reading the thread if they can see what you're replying to.

Putting the E in JREF there for you :)
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@Primus, #146

I use what you said. But I add the message number so that I may know which among the messages of the poster is being responded to. Please compare what I do with others who just quotes a portion of the message.

I think Robrob does not refer to that quote function but the usage of the quotes. Please ask him because he is very knowedgeable about what he is saying.
 
PeaceCrusader said:
@Foster Zygote, #149

We are not talking here about cars. We are talking here about nails used in the crucifixion. The four gospels tell us that there were three people crucified, with Jesus in the center.

The spirit of Ama told us that there were four nails used to nail Jesus on the cross and three to each of the two thieves; the names of the two thieves and how their feet were nailed; that Saint Helena, the mother of the Roman Emperor Constantine the Great, about 300 years after the crucifixion, found twelve nails in all, eight rusty and four not rusty; that a nail used in Jesus was thrown into the sea when Pontius Pilate was buried to calm the relentless storm. This nail floated and reached Paris which Saint James found. So there was a total of thirteen nails. If ten nails were used to nail the men to their respective crosses, the three were used to nail the signs.

Some of these are also found in His recommended Holy Bible supplement of “Awit at Salaysay ng Pasiong Mahal ni Hesukristong Panginoon Natin” (“Songs and Narratives of the Holy Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ”) or “Pasiong Mahal” or “Pasyon” for short.

I did not know these. Ama revealed them to us which I am sharing to you. Believe it or not.
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we don't. you already showed us how you put words in the mouth of the old lady, her most explicit sentence being " Ummmph" (sic). replace all "ama said" by "i believe" and only then we could have a sane discussion
 
PeaceCrusader said:
@pakeha, #148

It was in 1994 that I accepted that He is, based on what I discovered that year which I believe could not have happened had God made it so – the bold letters A-M-A in a published article about the calendar, 888 as the number of Jesus, the post office box configuration, our arrival in Australia in August of 1988. Are these coincidences?
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Yes.

Hans
 
PeaceCrusader said:
It is your decision to accept or not what Ama say. What I can say is that from 1983 to 1994, I doubted that Ama is the spirit of Jesus Christ Himself, even though He hinted that He is. It was in 1994 that I accepted that He is, based on what I discovered that year which I believe could not have happened had God made it so – the bold letters A-M-A in a published article about the calendar, 888 as the number of Jesus, the post office box configuration, our arrival in Australia in August of 1988. Are these coincidences?
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Yes. This is why they are called coincidences.
 
PeaceCrusader said:
We are not talking here about cars. We are talking here about nails used in the crucifixion. The four gospels tell us that there were three people crucified, with Jesus in the center.
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It's an analogy. It's a means of illustrating the fallacious reasoning of assuming that, just because Jesus is described as being executed between two criminals, all three of them must have been arranged in much greater geometric symmetry beyond that of the gross symmetry of their relative positions.

The spirit of Ama told us...
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And this "spirit" has told you other things which have proved to be false. This "spirit" has been shown to be an unreliable source.
 
Meadmaker said:
Ok, so there was the religious, 12 month, Muslim style floating calendar that dictated the timing of Pesach, to be celebrated "in the first month" according to the Bible. That was the first month of the purely lunar year. It wasn't the month of Nisan.

But Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashannah, and Sukhot were all marked by the civic calendar, and occurred in Tishri, which was always a fall month.

So there are a couple of questions that come up. First, is there any evidence outside of the Bible for this purely lunar calendar, which rotates the months through the seasons? There are several documents in existence from before or shortly after the time of Christ in which Nisan is named as the month of the passover. Is there any document that says it was ever at any time other than the spring,or that there was a rotating calendar?

Second, Leviticus does say that Pesach shall be held in the first month, not naming Nisan as the month. However, it also says that Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, and Sukhot are all in the seventh month. So how could Jesus be crucified in the first month, but then, shortly thereafter, ascend into heaven in the seventh month during the Sukhot. Regardless of what season things are in, Sukhot is still six months after Pesach, at least according to Leviticus.
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@Meadmaker, #145

You are correct, Meadmaker. Rosh Hashannah (New Year’s Day, Tishri 1), Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement, Tishri 10), and Sukkoth (Feast of Tabernacles, Tishri 15) were and are in the lunisolar calendar. This calendar starts the year on Tishri 1. Tishri is a fall or autumn month sometime in September/October in the Gregorian solar calendar.

Pesach (Passover Festival) was in the religious, purely lunar calendar. It was celebrated from 14th to the 21st day of the first month. When Jesus was crucified, the first month fell in the Jewish month of Av, in August, a summer month. There were just twelve months. No intercalation or insertion of a month. Like you said, it is similar to the Muslim calendar with 354/355 days in a 12-lunar month lunar year.

It is only now in the reformed Jewish calendar (since 358/359 AD) that Pesach was fixed on Nisan 14-21. The first month in this religious lunar calendar is in the month of Nisan.

Source outside of the Holy Bible: maybe “War of the Jews” by the first century AD historian Flavius Josephus when he mentioned the Fall of Jerusalem to the Romans, King David, Fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians, and Melchizedek. The number of years mentioned there is using the purely lunar calendar.

Please tell me the documents in existence wherein Nisan is named as the month of the Passover. I am interested to know them. Just bear in mind that Pesach then was wandering through the seasons, so Pesach may have fallen in the month of Nisan.

In the Holy Bible, I can cite to you 1 Kings 4:7-19 and 1 Chronicle 27:1-15 during the time of King Solomon where purely lunar calendar were used. So from the departure from Egypt until the exile to Babylon during the seventh century BC, the Israelites used a purely lunar calendar only. From exile to Babylon to the reformation of the Jewish calendar in 358/359 AD, the Israelites used two calendars: a purely lunar calendar and a lunisolar calendar. It was during this time when Jesus was crucified. From 358/359 AD until today, the lunisolar calendar is used.

As I said, there were two calendar operating when Jesus was crucified – a purely lunar calendar whose first month then fell in the Jewish month of Av, and a lunisolar calendar adopted by the Israelites from the Babylonians when they were exiled in Babylon during the seventh century BC. Rosh Hashannah, Yom Kippur, and Sukkoth were in this month of Tishri now designated as the seventh month and the first month fixed in Nisan as the first month of the year after the reformation of the Jewish calendar in 358/359 AD.
 
Utter nonsense. The intercalation, so that Passover is in spring, has been done at least since the time of Exodus (and probably before); you have not shown otherwise.
 
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