The crucifixion of Jesus Christ

[Akhenaten]

<drivel>

The cross was turned over to bend the nails to secure the nailing. So Jesus was underneath the cross while the nails were being bent.

But wherever they go, and whatever happens to them on the way, in that enchanted place on the top of the Forest, a little boy and his Bear will always be playing.

 

[Akuma Tennou]

You don't really expect more than PC's rote response to this type of question, do you?

I'll even save him the trouble of typing it:

20121004.2202

@Agatha #100


Everything Ama said is proven to be incorrect, too vague, too common, or contradictory? Pick out what is good for your soul (if you believe you have one) and discard what is evil.​

B+ for your effort, but as we don't know if it's plural or anything...

 

[Astreja]

I am imparting to you what I heard and learned from the spirit of Ama. It is not a joke. You, I, and others discuss to check it out if it is true or not.

We've already done exactly that, Aristeo -- Repeatedly. We have determined that your beliefs do not appear to be true.

We do not believe you, we do not believe Ka Apaz, and we do not believe "Ama." Kindly stop repeating the things that we have already rejected, and answer the following question:

Do you have any supporting evidence that would qualify as primary historical evidence? In other words, we are looking for actual written historical records that are not from "Ama," not from the Bible or any other religious work and not from your website, and which are first-person reports from individuals who actually witnessed the events you are claiming to be true?

 

[Stomatopoda]

You ask Robrob about the “quote” feature. He is the one who is knowledgeable about it.

Everyone but you understands it.

...

The cross was turned over to bend the nails to secure the nailing. So Jesus was underneath the cross while the nails were being bent.

Good job showing that neither you nor your actress friend know how actual crucifixions worked!

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Reading the OP and the linked page, the whole line of "reasoning" seems to derive from the idea that John in his gospel referred to the sabbath before which Jesus was crucified was some sort of "special" sabbath, which made it doubly important to make sure Jesus' body wasn't hanging there. Then, it goes on to assert that the sabbath during Pesach wasn't special enough to qualify, so he has thrown it to Yom Kippur, making the miracle of the Holy Spirit happen during Sukkoth instead of Shavuot.

To support this rather questionable interpretation, he then throws history on its head, inventiing some sort of Muslim-style rotating calendar for some, but not all, of the Jewish holidays.

It's....weird.

@Meadmaker, #116

You are correct, Meadmaker. John 19:31 states: “The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was a high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.”

That sabbath day, according to John, was a high day, a “special” sabbath as you say.

Preparation Day is the day before a sabbath day. When Jesus was crucified, it was on Preparation Day.

According to the spirit of Ama, Jesus was crucified and died on August 17. I got the year from the tenth paragraph of “Panambitan” or “Pleading” (http://aristean.org/pahayag001.htm ). It means 1,974 years from death. If it was recorded in 1974, the death must be in 1 BC. So I checked the equivalent of August 17, 1 BC in the Jewish calendar. It says Av 30, 3760. The following day is Elul 1, 3760, the beginning of the month. The Jews had a sabbath day every beginning of month called “Rosh Hodesh” or New Moon Festival. It is in Numbers 28:11-15. The preparation done in this festival was more than the ordinary weekly Saturday Sabbath. That is why before, it was a high day.

On the fortieth day, Jesus ascended to Heaven. I found this to be September 29, 1 BC, equivalent to Tishri 14, 3761. The fifteenth of Tishri is the first day of the Festival of Tabernacles (Sukkoth). This was the day when the speaking in tongues happened and not at Shavuoth or Pentecost. There is no Yom Kippur.

 

[Astreja]

To all: I would like to propose a little experiment, and request your input as to how to 'blind' it for proper scientific rigor.

I suggest that Aristeo ask "Ama" to make itself known to Me, in a 3-hour window to be determined.

And at the end of that 3-hour window I'll conduct a retaliatory complementary outburst of woo-woo using My own (admittedly non-empirical and subjective and outright barmy) methods. What say you?

 

[Akhenaten]

Go you!

 

[I Ratant]

Everyone but you understands it.



Good job showing that neither you nor your actress friend know how actual crucifixions worked!

.
Do any of the 100 or so "True Nails" show signs of clinching, the technical term for beating over the end of the nail protruding from something?
Oh, and how many nails will a JW witness to?

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Did you know that the crucifixion was symmetrical? The Holy Bible tells us that there were two thieves on either side of Jesus. Jesus was in the middle (Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:33; John 19:18).

Two nails were used for each foot of Jesus. Dimas, the thief who asked Jesus to take him where He was going, was on the right side of Jesus. Only one nail was used to nail Dimas’ right foot over his left foot. Hestas, the thief on the left side of Jesus, even insulted and hurled abuse to Him. Only one nail also was used to nail Hestas’ left foot over his right foot.

 

[Akhenaten]

Did you know that the crucifixion was symmetrical?

No, and neither do you.

Two nails were used for each foot of Jesus.

The number of nails used to fasten your imaginary hero to some planks is increasing at a most surprising rate.

There'll be more iron up there than either wood or Jesus soon.

 

[Naddig74]

This is not in the Holy Bible but was revealed to us by Ama.

Not good enough!

The cross was turned over to bend the nails to secure the nailing. So Jesus was underneath the cross while the nails were being bent.

At which point there would have been a faint squelching noise and the unfortunate agonised saviour would have fallen off...we can add anatomy and physiology to the list of things you really don't understand...

<snip>

According to the spirit of Ama...

<snip>

Not good enough! We will not suddenly believe it if you say it often enough...

 

[Rincewind]

Two nails were used for each foot of Jesus.

Didn't you write that JC was something like seven feet tall?

So that makes 14 nails....

 

[pakeha]

Who knows? After all, Tiberius adopted Caligula, so why not a robot moulded from clay by a Galilean carpenter's son. I'd rather have ten golems than one Caligula.

Also, Tiberius kept as a pet in his villa on Capri a "wingless dragon", thought to have been a giant lizard of some kind, which he fed on vermin. He was a rather strange fellow in later life.

Well, yes, rather strange, yes.
But my point was that this golem apparently grew from a 12 year old to adulthood, married and so on.
The wife never notice hubby was made of clay?

There is no Augustus Tiberius.

I am imparting to you what I heard and learned from the spirit of Ama. It is not a joke. You, I, and others discuss to check it out if it is true or not.

If you want, I can let you listen to the revelation of Ama regarding Pontius Pilate or read its transcription and translation.

You know that Pontius Pilate was the Prefect (or Governor) of Judea. The Roman Emperor then, Tiberius Caesar, was the one who installed him [Pontius Pilate] there.

Augustus was a title voted Tiberius.
I feel your medium has gone around the bend, but sure, I'd like to listen to what she said about Ponitus Pilate.
Post it up here, please.

This is not in the Holy Bible but was revealed to us by Ama.

The cross was lying on the ground. The right hand of Jesus was nailed first. Then the right foot, the left hand, the left foot. The fifth nail is for the INRI sign.

The names of the four nails (except the sign) are: “Propram Anacnom”, “Sumaclorde”, “Nasarte Rasiom”, and “Salbuluray Cabaladoc”.

When the left hand was to be nailed, the hole was further away. So they have to pull the hand to reach the hole. For example, the hole was five inches away whereas only four inches with outstretched hands. Because of the pulling, it dislocated the joint.

The cross was turned over to bend the nails to secure the nailing. So Jesus was underneath the cross while the nails were being bent.

PC, have you ever seen a crucifixion during holy week in the Philippines?
What you've described makes no sense at all.
I think your medium was aware of the necessity of shark jumping.

To all: I would like to propose a little experiment, and request your input as to how to 'blind' it for proper scientific rigor.

I suggest that Aristeo ask "Ama" to make itself known to Me, in a 3-hour window to be determined.

And at the end of that 3-hour window I'll conduct a retaliatory complementary outburst of woo-woo using My own (admittedly non-empirical and subjective and outright barmy) methods. What say you?

Go for it, o goddess!

 

[Akhenaten]

The wife never notice hubby was made of clay?

She'd always hoped for a perfect marriage, but alas, it was only a pipe dream.

 

[Astreja]

Go for it, o goddess!

Okay, that's 2 "Yea" and none opposed. Motion carried.

I'll ponder this a bit more and start a new thread sometime in the next day or so, so as to keep this thread on track.

Inasmuch as a train wreck can be considered 'on track,' that is...

...By the way, should I start the thread in R&P, General Skepticism and Paranormal, or Humor?

 

[Agatha]

Did you know that the crucifixion was symmetrical? The Holy Bible tells us that there were two thieves on either side of Jesus. Jesus was in the middle (Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:33; John 19:18).

Two nails were used for each foot of Jesus. Dimas, the thief who asked Jesus to take him where He was going, was on the right side of Jesus. Only one nail was used to nail Dimas’ right foot over his left foot. Hestas, the thief on the left side of Jesus, even insulted and hurled abuse to Him. Only one nail also was used to nail Hestas’ left foot over his right foot.

And what is your evidence for any of this nonsense? Or evidence for Pilate being a golem?

By 'evidence' I do NOT mean "stuff that Ka Apaz said while she was pretending to be Ama".

Astreja, I'd suggest humor, but GS&P would probably be a good fit, given the experimental nature.

 

[Meadmaker]

@Meadmaker, #116

You are correct, Meadmaker. John 19:31 states: “The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was a high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.”

That sabbath day, according to John, was a high day, a “special” sabbath as you say.

Preparation Day is the day before a sabbath day. When Jesus was crucified, it was on Preparation Day.

According to the spirit of Ama, Jesus was crucified and died on August 17. I got the year from the tenth paragraph of “Panambitan” or “Pleading” (http://aristean.org/pahayag001.htm ). It means 1,974 years from death. If it was recorded in 1974, the death must be in 1 BC. So I checked the equivalent of August 17, 1 BC in the Jewish calendar. It says Av 30, 3760. The following day is Elul 1, 3760, the beginning of the month. The Jews had a sabbath day every beginning of month called “Rosh Hodesh” or New Moon Festival. It is in Numbers 28:11-15. The preparation done in this festival was more than the ordinary weekly Saturday Sabbath. That is why before, it was a high day.

On the fortieth day, Jesus ascended to Heaven. I found this to be September 29, 1 BC, equivalent to Tishri 14, 3761. The fifteenth of Tishri is the first day of the Festival of Tabernacles (Sukkoth). This was the day when the speaking in tongues happened and not at Shavuoth or Pentecost. There is no Yom Kippur.

OK. My misunderstanding. It was a "special" sabbath because it was also Rosh Chodesh, not Yom Kippur. (I assume that when you say "there is no Yom Kippur" you mean that it plays no role, right? You aren't suggesting that Yom Kippur wasn't observed back then, are you?) By the way, Rosh Chodesh is still observed, although its significance is somewhat diminished from ancient times. Today,a regular sabbath requires more preparation in an observant Jewish home than does Rosh Chodesh.

But those regular sabbaths were a really big deal in Jesus' time, so letting him hang dead on a cross on a plain old regular sabbath wouldn't be any more significant than a sabbath/Rosh Chodesh combo date.

I'm still unclear how Nisan gets moved into the Summer in this scheme of things, but perhaps the web site will explain it.

 

[Wolrab]

Didn't Nisan used to be Datsun? So Datsun B2-10 had enough headroom for 7 foot tall messiahs and their identical golem buddies. Personalized tags read INRI short for I'm nailed right in.

It's true.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

OK. My misunderstanding. It was a "special" sabbath because it was also Rosh Chodesh, not Yom Kippur. (I assume that when you say "there is no Yom Kippur" you mean that it plays no role, right? You aren't suggesting that Yom Kippur wasn't observed back then, are you?) By the way, Rosh Chodesh is still observed, although its significance is somewhat diminished from ancient times. Today,a regular sabbath requires more preparation in an observant Jewish home than does Rosh Chodesh.

But those regular sabbaths were a really big deal in Jesus' time, so letting him hang dead on a cross on a plain old regular sabbath wouldn't be any more significant than a sabbath/Rosh Chodesh combo date.

I'm still unclear how Nisan gets moved into the Summer in this scheme of things, but perhaps the web site will explain it.

@Meadmaker, #137

You are right, Meadmaker, Yom Kippur or Day of Atonement did not play a role in the determination of when Jesus was crucified.

Yom Kippur was celebrated during the time of Jesus. That is in the Old Testament’s Numbers 29:7-11. It was and it is a “special” sabbath, one of the high holidays, observed on the 10th day of Jewish month of Tishri.

Rosh Chodesh or New Moon Festival was a “special” sabbath, a high day (John 19:31). It is still observed but as a minor festival. Why is it so? Because the Jews were expelled from Jerusalem when the city fell to the Romans during the first century AD. Another thing is that the Jews were dispersed in the Roman Empire where the calendar used was the Julian solar calendar (based on the sun) and not the Jewish lunisolar calendar (based on the moon). Also, the Jews were not able to rebuild the First Temple that King Solomon built or the reconstructed and expanded Temple by King Herod the Great because there is now Islam’s Dome of the Rock. The Jews are forbidden from entering the area.

Yes, today, the regular weekly Saturday sabbath required more preparation than does Rosh Chodesh. Why? Because of what are cited in the preceding paragraph. But if you will compare what this regular sabbath entails (Numbers 28:9-10) and Rosh Chodesh (Numbers 28:11-15), you will find that the later needs more preparation than the first.

It was not a combo date of sabbath/Rosh Chodesh during the time of Jesus. August 17, 1 BC was a Thursday. The first sabbath was the high day (John 19:31) on Friday. The second sabbath was the regular weekly Saturday sabbath. And what I found out, there was a third Sabbath, Sunday, the Sabbath of the followers of Jesus. There was only a small window of opportunity for Mary Magdalene, et al. to buy the sweet spices (Mark 16:1) to anoint Jesus, and that is after their Sabbath. That is why the followers of Jesus went to the tomb very early Monday, the first day of the week, while it was still dark (John 20:1) before dawn.

You are unclear how the month of Nisan where the Passover Festival is presently held gets moved into Summer. No, it was not moved. The Jews were using two calendars during the time of Jesus – a purely lunar calendar where Passover Festival was and a lunisolar calendar. Passover Festival was in the purely lunar calendar so it was wandering through the seasons. When Jesus was crucified, Passover Festival was in August, in the Jewish month of Av, a summer month.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Didn't you write that JC was something like seven feet tall?

So that makes 14 nails....

@Rincewind, #132

Jesus was 6 feet 8 inches tall. He had only two feet. So only two nails were driven through His feet and not 14 nails.