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What counts as a historical Jesus?

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Thank you for that.
Such as?

Any evidence for this?

Evidence?

Good morning catsmate:

The two books I've cited wil present the arguments for a 'creator', hence the wheat and cotton..

next, evidence for yeshua/Jesus

A salient fact is that a vast majority of credentialed Historians acknowledge the existence of Yeshua as an historical fact. The debate is about what he actually was about.

An excellent book, by a self avowed agnostic, with atheistic leanings, who, by the way is a Professor of biblical studies; is:

Did Jesus Exist?

Bart D. Ehrman

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bart-d-ehrman/did-jesus-exist_b_1349544.html?ref=religion

In a society in which people still claim the Holocaust did not happen, and in which there are resounding claims that the American president is, in fact, a Muslim born on foreign soil, is it any surprise to learn that the greatest figure in the history of Western civilization, the man on whom the most powerful and influential social, political, economic, cultural and religious institution in the world -- the Christian church -- was built, the man worshipped, literally, by billions of people today -- is it any surprise to hear that Jesus never even existed?

That is the claim made by a small but growing cadre of (published ) writers, bloggers and Internet junkies who call themselves mythicists. This unusually vociferous group of nay-sayers maintains that Jesus is a myth invented for nefarious (or altruistic) purposes by the early Christians who modeled their savior along the lines of pagan divine men who, it is alleged, were also born of a virgin on Dec. 25, who also did miracles, who also died as an atonement for sin and were then raised from the dead.............................
 
The two books I've cited wil present the arguments for a 'creator', hence the wheat and cotton..
Why don't you present your evidence rather than expecting us to wade through and find it?

A salient fact is that a vast majority of credentialed Historians acknowledge the existence of Yeshua as an historical fact. The debate is about what he actually was about.
Classic Appeal to Popularity fallacy. Why can't you (or this purported " vast majority of credentialed Historians" actually show the evidence upon whicjh they (supposedly) base their certainty?
Why not give it a try? What evidence do you find so convincing?


An excellent book, by a self avowed agnostic, with atheistic leanings, who, by the way is a Professor of biblical studies; is:

Did Jesus Exist?

Bart D. Ehrman
We've dealt with this book here already. It fails to actually supply such evidence. And of course Ehrman isn't actually a historian...............
If you're actually open minded why not pop over to Viridar and read Earl Doherty's 34 part dissection of Ehrman's work?
Of course judging by your train wreck of a thread on the Torah you won't be doing any such thing.
 
I heard John Dominic Crossan speak once at a tiny, though very very very wealthy little church in my town. He was so marvelous. Whether one is a believer or not in Jesus as devine, there is no question there was Jesus as a splendid man.

Usually religious scholars like Crossan require multiple attestations to confirm a "gospel story". Have you read Crossan?
 
There is a huge literature on this. Josephus wrote no reference to Jesus. No commentator prior to Eusebius notices the "evidence" of the Josephus reference. Origen denies it. It's nonsense.

Hi Craig B,
I was surprised at your certainty on this. When I see that some of the people that seem to be knowledgeable about this subject in this forum take such a strong stand on this issue it makes me wonder if my opinion that the Josephus references, particularly the James, brother of Jesus reference, might be genuine is not grounded in objectivity.

The Wikipedia article says that the "overwhelming consensus of scholars" consider the James reference to be authentic. I share HM's opinion and the opinion of others that on the issue of the existence of an HJ expert opinion has the potential to be so biased that it may not be of value as to the existence of an HJ. Still concluding that an overwhelming consensus of scholars is wrong would take some strong evidence.

I just reread the arguments against authenticity in the Wikipedia article and I just don't see something there that leads to an absolute conclusion that the the passage is not authentic. There is a much more detailed discussion of the issue on the web. I didn't try to find it this time but I have read through it several times and I haven't come away convinced one way or the other. And, of course, I read the long discussion of the issue in this thread.

I would like to draw absolute conclusions about something in regard to the question of HJ. I believed, at one time, that was possible. I think now that reliable evidence about the HJ, for or against, just doesn't exist. Maybe though, I have just missed something and you are right that the evidence supports a strong conclusion that the James brother of Jesus reference is clearly not authentic or if it is authentic it doesn't refer to the HJ.
 
Patience. One thing at a time. And laying out the reasons all scholars accept a First Century date of composition for gMark will take rather more time than it took to write the two sentences you quite above, so please don't say such silly things.

Sorry, didn't realize only True Scotsmen© studied the provenance of the gospels...
 
This is _not_ a ^%$^#&%$ discussion of the "Gospel Jesus". <snip>
Stone

Forgive me--I did not realize we were adhereing to the "euphemized manly language" standard.
I suppose all True Scotsmen Scholars know what "^%$^#&%$" means, and can discuss its provenance, as well as the first time Falvius, or Marconius, Or Tempestuus, or Severus, said it, quoting Fulano de Tal, --bur how does it advance the discussion?

Or did I miss the invitation to chest-pounding?
 
Mmmm.
Chest-pounding.

YHWH provides the cotton, we, huans make the linen..........

Hey, I can't help noticing you never took aboard my comment about cotton and linen.
Can it be you don't know what linen is made of?


...Usually religious scholars like Crossan require multiple attestations to confirm a "gospel story". Have you read Crossan?

It sounds interesting, StellaByStarlight.
Could you post up link so we can see for ourselves?
 
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It sounds interesting, StellaByStarlight.
Could you post up link so we can see for ourselves?

Stellabystarlight was referring to this guy:
http://www.johndominiccrossan.com/
...
In the last forty years he has written twenty-five books on the historical Jesus, earliest Christianity, and the historical Paul. Five of them have been national religious bestsellers for a combined total of twenty-four months. The scholarly core of his work is the trilogy from The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant (1991) through The Birth of Christianity: Discovering What Happened in the Years Immediately After the Execution of Jesus (1998), to In Search of Paul: How Jesus’s Apostle Opposed Rome’s Empire with God’s Kingdom, co-authored with the archaeologist Jonathan L. Reed (2004). His work has also been translated into twelve foreign languages, including Korean, Chinese, Japanese and Russian...

I read "The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant (1991)" and thought it was interesting up to a point, but I started to doubt his objectivity when he tried to argue that the miracles really happened.

Maybe I was misinterpreting what he was saying, but he looked to me like just another apologist.
 
Mmmm.
Chest-pounding.
Hey, I can't help noticing you never took aboard my comment about cotton and linen.
Can it be you don't know what linen is made of?

It sounds interesting, StellaByStarlight.
Could you post up link so we can see for ourselves?

silly goose, of course not. :rolleyes: puhleeeeeze...........:D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linen

............Textiles in a linen weave texture, even when made of cotton, hemp and other non-flax fibers are also loosely referred to as "linen". .............

I'm loose and full of juice. ;)

kthxbai
 
Hi Craig B, <snip interesting comments, only for the sake of brevity> I would like to draw absolute conclusions about something in regard to the question of HJ. I believed, at one time, that was possible. I think now that reliable evidence about the HJ, for or against, just doesn't exist. Maybe though, I have just missed something and you are right that the evidence supports a strong conclusion that the James brother of Jesus reference is clearly not authentic or if it is authentic it doesn't refer to the HJ.
I'm glad you're not defending the notorious "Testimonium Flavianum", but only the more plausible Antiquities 20:9. But even here the evidence suggests interpolation, not of a "Jesus reference", (which is manifestly authentic) but of a "Christ reference". The passage relates how a rogue high priest, Ananus, procured the death of a James, brother of a Jesus, and as a punishment "king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest." So we have two Jesuses here, which is by no means impossible, for there are a couple of dozen people of that name mentioned in the works of Josephus. But it is vastly more likely that the "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James" contains an interpolated "who was called Christ" probably originating as a marginal gloss. If we remove it, we have a James, a brother of a Jesus, being murdered by a high priest, the king deposing the murderous priest and replacing him with a Jesus. What Jesus? The victim's brother, of course! And that explains why Josephus tells us that the murdered James had a brother of that name.
 
I'm glad you're not defending the notorious "Testimonium Flavianum", but only the more plausible Antiquities 20:9. But even here the evidence suggests interpolation, not of a "Jesus reference", (which is manifestly authentic) but of a "Christ reference". The passage relates how a rogue high priest, Ananus, procured the death of a James, brother of a Jesus, and as a punishment "king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest." So we have two Jesuses here, which is by no means impossible, for there are a couple of dozen people of that name mentioned in the works of Josephus. But it is vastly more likely that the "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James" contains an interpolated "who was called Christ" probably originating as a marginal gloss. If we remove it, we have a James, a brother of a Jesus, being murdered by a high priest, the king deposing the murderous priest and replacing him with a Jesus. What Jesus? The victim's brother, of course! And that explains why Josephus tells us that the murdered James had a brother of that name.

I don't know enough to make a useful comment on the above. I just wanted to clarify that Jesus here equals Joshua. And when people say there were lots of people named Jesus in first century Palestine what they really mean is that there were lots of people named the Aramaic equivalent of Joshua. Jesus is derived from the Latin version of the Greek version of the Aramaic name of Joshua. Is this correct? I think in Greek versions of the NT that both the old testament fellows named Joshua and the NT fellow we know of as Jesus are all called by the same name.
 
I don't know enough to make a useful comment on the above. I just wanted to clarify that Jesus here equals Joshua. And when people say there were lots of people named Jesus in first century Palestine what they really mean is that there were lots of people named the Aramaic equivalent of Joshua. Jesus is derived from the Latin version of the Greek version of the Aramaic name of Joshua. Is this correct? I think in Greek versions of the NT that both the old testament fellows named Joshua and the NT fellow we know of as Jesus are all called by the same name.
Yes indeed. The list of Jesuses in Josephus begins with the Joshua Son of Nun of the Tanakh. What a guy! I hope he isn't a "historical Jesus" (HJ).
Joshua 10:28 That day Joshua took Makkedah. He put the city and its king to the sword and totally destroyed everyone in it. He left no survivors ... 29 Then Joshua and all Israel with him moved on from Makkedah to Libnah and attacked it. 30 The Lord also gave that city and its king into Israel’s hand. The city and everyone in it Joshua put to the sword. He left no survivors there ... 32 The Lord gave Lachish into Israel’s hands, and Joshua took it on the second day. The city and everyone in it he put to the sword ...
But enough!
 
I don't know enough to make a useful comment on the above. I just wanted to clarify that Jesus here equals Joshua. And when people say there were lots of people named Jesus in first century Palestine what they really mean is that there were lots of people named the Aramaic equivalent of Joshua. Jesus is derived from the Latin version of the Greek version of the Aramaic name of Joshua. Is this correct? I think in Greek versions of the NT that both the old testament fellows named Joshua and the NT fellow we know of as Jesus are all called by the same name.


Wikipedia has many pages on the origin of the name “Yehoshua”, ie what in the middle English period became rendered as “Jesus”. I think I must have quoted passages from those Wiki pages earlier in the thread (and given the links), but from memory –

- the name, or “word”, “Yehoshua” is a so-called “Theorphoric name”. As far as I can tell, it was not originally a person’s name. Instead it is a direct reference to, or appeal to, God …

… the first half of the name is directly the old Hebrew word for God or YHWH, and the second half is variously interpreted as something like “saves” or “cry to” …

… so the word “Yehoshua” (Greek equivalent at the time of Jesus was “Iesous”) is actually a verbal invocation of, or appeal to, God.

Like many early holy words (afaik), “Yehoshua” subsequently became used as a name for male children (eg as if proclaiming your child to be God-like, or offering your new born child to the name/worship of God).

To me that raises the question of whether or not the earliest Christian preachers, eg say just before Paul and well before the written Gospels, were actually referring to a named person “Yehoshua”, or whether at first the word "Yehoshua" was merely being used in their preaching and praying as a direct invocation/appeal to YHWH.

As always, you might find coded references to something like that in the Dead Sea Scrolls (everything in the Scrolls was coded), eg where the Scrolls appear to describe a religious community which was very similar to the later Christians.
 
It looks to me like this other evidence is very weak with the possible exception of Josephus.


As far as I can see sources such as Josephus are quite useless as evidence of Jesus.

But do you really take a different view on that? Do you actually think there can be any evidential value at all in the writing attributed to authors like Josephus?

I’ve said this several times here before, but the quite obvious reason why sources such as Josephus are useless, is because (apparently) we do not actually have anything ever written by Josephus!

At risk of repetition – what we are talking about are (apparently) copies made by Christian scribes from about the 11th century onwards.

That’s 1000 years after Josephus had died!

To imagine that copies like that could ever be regarded as reliable evidence seems to me absurd to the point of being laughable.

It might be different if the substantial bulk of Josephus was actually concerning Jesus. But on the contrary, authors like Josephus and Tacitus only make the briefest of brief mention of Jesus. And even then, what little they say is in any case quite certainly only hearsay (because neither Josephus nor Tacitus were even born at the time of the supposed events).

Even without other issues, that alone seems to me to render work like Josephus quite useless when it comes to evidence of Jesus as a real person.
 
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As far as I can see sources such as Josephus are quite useless as evidence of Jesus.

But do you really take a different view on that? Do you actually think there can be any evidential value at all in the writing attributed to authors like Josephus?

I’ve said this several times here before, but the quite obvious reason why sources such as Josephus are useless, is because (apparently) we do not actually have anything ever written by Josephus!

At risk of repetition – what we are talking about are (apparently) copies made by Christian scribes from about the 11th century onwards.

That’s 1000 years after Josephus had died!

To imagine that copies like that could ever be regarded as reliable evidence seems to me absurd to the point of being laughable.

It might be different if the substantial bulk of Josephus was actually concerning Jesus. But on the contrary, authors like Josephus and Tacitus only make the briefest of brief mention of Jesus. And even then, what little they say is in any case quite certainly only hearsay (because neither Josephus nor Tacitus were even born at the time of the supposed events).

Even without other issues, that alone seems to me to render work like Josephus quite useless when it comes to evidence of Jesus as a real person.

My view, right now (it might be different this afternoon), is that the Josephus reference to James the brother of Jesus who is called Christ could be authentic. I don't reject any of the arguments against this view. However, I don't find the argument that we don't have a copy of Josephus earlier than the eleventh century a strong argument against authenticity. I suspect we don't have much but late copies of a great deal of ancient literature. But I get the idea in eleven centuries of copying lots of things are added and deleted and so we can't ever know what Josephus really wrote.

As to Tacitus, my view is that there is almost nothing there that goes to the existence of an HJ. Tacitus does sort of provide evidence of Christians at a fairly early date though.

And just a general note on your idea that Josephus is a useless source of evidence for the existence of an HJ.: I agree that Josephus is not of value as evidence if the issue is proof of the existence of an HJ. The question for me is whether the evidence is strong enough to support a guess that an HJ existed. And after several years of thinking and reading about the Josephus reference to James I have arrived at the view that I don't know and won't know, but the existence of people like yourself who have a stronger view of this than me make me wonder if one more time through the evidence might make me change my mind.

ETA: Thanks for the additional information on the Jesus/Joshua/Ienos/Yehoshua name.

The references to a Christian like sect in the DSS was interesting. Perhaps, you could expand on that? I have come to believe that Jews had almost nothing to do with the creation of Christianity other than that the gentile sect from which Christianity arose had a religion based on Judaism and the Septuagint. The existence of a Jewish Christian like sect in first century Palestine would be evidence that I might be wrong about that.
 
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The references to a Christian like sect in the DSS was interesting. Perhaps, you could expand on that? I have come to believe that Jews had almost nothing to do with the creation of Christianity other than that the gentile sect from which Christianity arose had a religion based on Judaism and the Septuagint. The existence of a Jewish Christian like sect in first century Palestine would be evidence that I might be wrong about that.
No, I think you're right. The DSS sect may in some ways have been similar to the earliest, as it were "proto-Ebionite", form of Christianity, but it in no way resembled the Pauline sect that evolved into the religion we now know as Christian.
 
My view, right now (it might be different this afternoon), is that the Josephus reference to James the brother of Jesus who is called Christ could be authentic.

I don't reject any of the arguments against this view.

However, I don't find the argument that we don't have a copy of Josephus earlier than the eleventh century a strong argument against authenticity.



OK, well we are all entitled to a view. And I don’t want to spend excess time going over the whole thing again. But just out of interest;- look at what you say above -

- you are talking about a single sentence which you are attributing to Josephus, who was thought to be writing circa. 100AD. In fact not even a single sentence but just half a sentence, interpreted as saying something like “James, the Lords brother”, and you say that you do not find it significant when I emphasise to you that it is in fact apparently an impossibility for you to mean what you say about getting that from Josephus, because you are actually getting it from what Christian copyists wrote 1000 years later!

And you don’t think that is “a strong argument against authenticity”?

Well … even if those four words (“James, the Lords brother”) were in whatever was originally written by Josephus, where on earth do you think Josephus could ever have obtained any such idea?

Do you really think it’s credible that Josephus himself knew this person “ James”, and knew that he claimed to be the “lord’s brother”? Frankly that is absurdly unlikely.

So where did those four words come from? Where did Josephus (or his 11th century Christian copyists) get that idea from?

OK, well as we all know, that particular idea seems to come originally from just one ultra-brief sentence in one of the Pauline Letters.

However, as Ellegard points out – Paul frequently used phrases saying something like “brother of the Lord”. But in all cases he apparently means “brother in religious belief”. It is far from clear that Paul ever meant that any particular person named “James”, of which there are several in the Gospels, and often all badly confused with one-another, ever actually meant anyone as the true flesh & blood family brother of Jesus.

So when you talk about this four word sentence coming from Josephus c.100AD, what you really mean is that it’s coming from Christian copyists 1000 years later, and that those copyists appear to have got that idea from just 4 words supposedly once written by St Paul!

But just on the writing of Paul – Paul seems to be a wandering lifelong street preacher. That’s all he ever did. What then is the likelihood that in 50AD wandering street preachers like Paul could actually write perfect extensive life histories in Greek?

Who actually wrote the Pauline Letters? And where did they get their beliefs from?

In those Pauline Letters, Paul himself never claims to have ever met Jesus.

And despite mention of names which sound like the names of personal “disciples” of Jesus, it’s far from clear that Paul ever really claims to have met anyone who was a personal “disciple” of Jesus.

On the contrary, as far as I know – what is described under the name of Paul’s letters, is really a religious vision of a belief in a messiah, as understood by Paul to be the fulfilment of what Paul already believed must be the truth according to the prophecies of the Jewish Old Testament stretching back to at least 500BC!

Again, if you read about the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS) you can find almost exactly the same sort of beliefs that Paul had concerning the expectation of an apocalyptic messiah appearing as a fulfilment of what the “proto-Christians” of that community believed to be the proper interpretation of the Old Testament.

Further – Pauls dream- like vision of Jesus is also extremely similar to the beliefs shown in the DSS. Ie, where that DSS community believed that the real world of Gods revelations was shown to them in their dreams. And where to become “real”, the dreams had to be interpreted by the highest priests in the community. They believed that what they saw in their religious dreams was actually a vision of reality … the dreams were thought to be Gods way of providing them with insight into religious reality. To repeat – this is all very similar to what Paul was describing in his visions of Jesus and his reliance on “scripture”.

So - - where did this half sentence come from “James, the Lords brother”?

Well, it appear to come from whoever wrote the 2nd and 3rd century copies of Paul’s Letters (not originally from Josephus or anyone else). But there is really nothing to show that Paul actually knew anyone to be literally the blood brother of Jesus. It appears more likely to be simply a reference to one of many Christian followers who were “brothers” in their obedient beliefs of a messiah named Yehoshua (ie”Jesus").

Paul of course (apparently) never met Jesus anyway … on the contrary, Paul seems to be preaching apocalyptic messianic dream-based beliefs very similar to what the DSS community of that same religion had been writing about from 170BC, ie from around 200 years before Paul ever lived.
 
...

- you are talking about a single sentence which you are attributing to Josephus, who was thought to be writing circa. 100AD. In fact not even a single sentence but just half a sentence, interpreted as saying something like “James, the Lords brother”, and you say that you do not find it significant when I emphasis to you that it is in fact apparently an impossibility for you to mean what you say about getting that from Josephus, because you are actually getting it from what Christian copyists wrote 1000 years later!

...


Most of your post I was either aware of or I think are at least plausible arguments against an HJ.

However, I think, in the above you misrepresented my view a bit. I do think it is significant that the writings of Josephus have come down through Christian copyists and the earliest version we have only dates from about 1000AD (I'm taking what you say here as true). And I think it is at least a legitimate argument against one of the pieces of evidence that supports the existence of an HJ. I just don't seem to think the argument is quite as strong as you do. Your argument seems to be that Christian copyists had a bias to insert at least the "who was called Christ" phrase so they did. I just think they might not have also.

As to the existence of this proto Ebionite (Craig B's term) sect in the Palestinian area that you say is referred to in the DSS:

Doesn't this provide some support for a part of the standard secular narrative for the origin of Christianity in that it provides evidence for a sect similar to the one that Paul claimed to exist and interact with? And if that sect existed, it isn't a big leap to think that such a sect could have included an HJ, James and Peter that Paul mentions.
 
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Doesn't this provide some support for a part of the standard secular narrative for the origin of Christianity in that it provides evidence for a sect similar to the one that Paul claimed to exist and interact with? And if that sect existed, it isn't a big leap to think that such a sect could have included an HJ, James and Peter that Paul mentions.
Yes that's possible, but the evidence is weak. My point is that these sects adopted a very different view of the Law, from the dismissive one that Paul adopts. Also that even if there were Jeuses and Jameses in such sects - which may well be believed - did Josephus know of a Jesus who was called Christ? We know that the declaration that Jesus was Christ, found in the TF, is an interpolation. So the other reference is in all probability spurious as well.
 
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