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What counts as a historical Jesus?

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Turning to the forum's search engine, I fed the name Eisenman into it.
Quite a number of posts turned up and perhaps the one that would most help you find more information about the reactions to his work is this one:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7426597&postcount=253
Yea I was trying to put Eisenman's linking of the DSS to christianity to bed there.
To summarise, in order for Eisenman's hypothesis to be correct the dating of the scrolls must be wrong, so he embraced the work of Atwill and Braunheim. However their work is simply wrong, radiocarbon dating experts (like van der Plicht whom I quoted) have shown this very clearly. Additionally (and I'm reminded of the shroud believers here) the radiocarbon dating meshes well with other dating techniques for the scrolls.
Furthermore Eisenman has been shown to be disingenuous in his use of some of the unprovenanced scroll fragments.
 
Yea I was trying to put Eisenman's linking of the DSS to christianity to bed there.
To summarise, in order for Eisenman's hypothesis to be correct the dating of the scrolls must be wrong, so he embraced the work of Atwill and Braunheim. However their work is simply wrong, radiocarbon dating experts (like van der Plicht whom I quoted) have shown this very clearly. Additionally (and I'm reminded of the shroud believers here) the radiocarbon dating meshes well with other dating techniques for the scrolls.
Furthermore Eisenman has been shown to be disingenuous in his use of some of the unprovenanced scroll fragments.

Atwill and Braunheim might be wrong in their criticisms of the method of C14 dating of the Habbakuk Pesher, I don't know enough about it to know either way. But the dating could be off for other reasons.

From what I've seen Eisenman dates the Habbakuk Pesher to the first century CE because of its contents. The way it describes the Bloody Romans behaving is more in line with the Legions under Vespasion than the ones with Pompei. It describes the Romans destroying whole cities, they weren't doing that before the 60sCE. Etc Etc...

This quote from Doudna:
There was a lot of looking for Jesus and John the Baptist, etc. in the scrolls in the early years. But that does not seem to have been a factor in the scroll deposit dating. Scholars today know that none of the texts are written as late as the first century CE. Everyone agrees on that. Well, Eisenman and Thiering think there are first-century CE references in the texts, but their views are not accepted by other Qumran scholars. In fact, ironically, Eisenman uses the argument (paraphrased): "why would the people of the Qumran scrolls spend all of their time writing peshers and other texts about events and persons of a century or more earlier, and never write about what was happening contemporary to themselves, in the first century CE?" Given the premise of CE deposits, Eisenman’s argument has a point. The problem is the premise. The Qumran field already knows the text compositions are not later than 1st century BCE.

Is just laughable. "The dating isn't wrong because everyone just knows it isn't wrong". Especially when you look at the early Qumran researchers and how they arrived at some of their conclusions.

Those Dominicans were a shady lot and I wouldn't trust them as far as I could spit a hippo. It wouldn't surprise me if they deliberately gave older bits of Papyrus to the scientists doing the carbon dating, just so they could maintain their "Nothing to see here folks. Jesus was not a Commie!" dogma.
 
I don't know enough to make a useful comment on the above. I just wanted to clarify that Jesus here equals Joshua. And when people say there were lots of people named Jesus in first century Palestine what they really mean is that there were lots of people named the Aramaic equivalent of Joshua. Jesus is derived from the Latin version of the Greek version of the Aramaic name of Joshua. Is this correct? I think in Greek versions of the NT that both the old testament fellows named Joshua and the NT fellow we know of as Jesus are all called by the same name.

Even if the passage is authentic it doesn't show the Jesus of the Bible existed:

"The Bible uses the term "christ" or "messiah" for a variety of figures, including all of the high priests and kings of ancient Israell" (Wright, Stuart A. (1995) Armageddon in Waco University of Chicago Press pg 296)


"In a characteristic typological reading he asserts that Moses himself was the first to recognize the glory of the name of Christ because he applied this title (in Greek as in the Hebrew, mashiah means simply "the anointed one") to the High Priest)" (Yerushalmi, Yosef Hayim (1993) Freud's Moses Yale University Press pg 91)

Similarly Mason in ''Josephus and the New Testament'' admits that christ simply means "wetted" or anointed, and this was the practice by which kings and high priests of Israel were installed (per Exodus 29:9 and 1 Samuel 10:1), and this could have simply been a nickname rather than a title.(Mason, Steve (2002) Josephus and the New Testament Baker Academic; 2 edition ISBN 978-0-8010-4700-8 pg 228)

Mason points out that Jospeph was writing for a Roman audience though flubs the logic a bit because if "for someone who did not know Jewish tradition or Christian preaching, the rather deliberate statement taht this Jesus was the "the wetted" or perhaps "the greased" would sound most peculiar" then wouldn't the SAME be true of "christ" as a nickname?

As I joked before the average 1st century Roman reading this would have wondered if James' brother was a wrestler (the most common method by which one became greased in Roman culture).

It is akin to using the term "MAC" to a modern audience with little idea as to what you mean by it--it could mean Media Access Control, the miscapitalization of "Mac", Metropolitan Airports Commission, Museum of Anatolian Civilizations, McMaster University, Midwest Archaeological Conference, and I think you get the idea.

Logically this means that at best the passage could be read "who was called christ" (lowercase 'c"), referring to the anointment of Jesus son of Damneus and have no connection to the Jesus of the Bible other than similarity in name. More logically the phrase was inserted later.
 
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Even if the passage is authentic it doesn't show the Jesus of the Bible existed:

"The Bible uses the term "christ" or "messiah" for a variety of figures, including all of the high priests and kings of ancient Israell" (Wright, Stuart A. (1995) Armageddon in Waco University of Chicago Press pg 296)
And also including Cyrus king of Persia who is so described in Isaiah 45:1
outōs legei kurios o theos tō christō mou kurō ...
This next is interesting.
Logically this means that at best the passage could be read "who was called christ" (lowercase 'c"), referring to the anointment of Jesus son of Damneus and have no connection to the Jesus of the Bible other than similarity in name. More logically the phrase was inserted later.
Never thought of that! But I still prefer the interpolation hypothesis, as evidently you do also.
 
Never thought of that! But I still prefer the interpolation hypothesis, as evidently you do also.

Yes but it is best to attack the supposed strongest argument so that you show that assuming the passage is NOT an interpolation doesn't salvage it.

More over the James in Josephus based on the temporal markers was killed by stoning 62 CE while Hegesippus, Clement of Alexandria, Eusebius of Caesarea, and Early Christian tradition held the James brother of Jesus as killed c70 CE by being thrown from a battlement, stoned, and finally clubbed to death by passing laundrymen (insert tasteless joke about a clean death)

If this passage was about the Jesus of the Bible then why did Hegesippus, Clement of Alexandria, Eusebius of Caesarea, and Early Christian tradition all get the details regarding the death of his brother in terms of time and method so wrong?
 
Yes but it is best to attack the supposed strongest argument so that you show that assuming the passage is NOT an interpolation doesn't salvage it.

More over the James in Josephus based on the temporal markers was killed by stoning 62 CE while Hegesippus, Clement of Alexandria, Eusebius of Caesarea, and Early Christian tradition held the James brother of Jesus as killed c70 CE by being thrown from a battlement, stoned, and finally clubbed to death by passing laundrymen (insert tasteless joke about a clean death)

If this passage was about the Jesus of the Bible then why did Hegesippus, Clement of Alexandria, Eusebius of Caesarea, and Early Christian tradition all get the details regarding the death of his brother in terms of time and method so wrong?
They may be harmonised by the usual trick: Josephus says he was stoned; the others assert he was thrown from a battlement, stoned, and finished off with laundry clubs. So they agree he was stoned. Josephus simply omits the other garish stuff. It's like one evangelist has one angel at the scene of Jesus' resurrection. Another has two. But if there were two, there must have been one, (as well as another one unmentioned in the first account). So the stories agree. QED.
 
They may be harmonised by the usual trick: Josephus says he was stoned; the others assert he was thrown from a battlement, stoned, and finished off with laundry clubs. So they agree he was stoned. Josephus simply omits the other garish stuff. It's like one evangelist has one angel at the scene of Jesus' resurrection. Another has two. But if there were two, there must have been one, (as well as another one unmentioned in the first account). So the stories agree. QED.

But that STILL leaves the nasty issue of the dates. Ananus ben Ananus (c62 CE) is NOT Phannias ben Samuel (c70 CE) and no amount of handwaving can harmonize THAT.
 
But that STILL leaves the nasty issue of the dates. Ananus ben Ananus (c62 CE) is NOT Phannias ben Samuel (c70 CE) and no amount of handwaving can harmonize THAT.
The "Rejection of Pascal's Wager" site attempts a reconciliation, founded upon imprecision in Hegesippus' wording. See http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/jamesdeath.html
There is still another discrepancy between Hegesippus' account and Josephus'. Hegesippus mentioned that the siege of Vespasian happened "immediately" after the death of James. This means that he had James death occur just before the siege of Jerusalem by Vespasian, or in 67 CE. This contradicts Josephus' account above, which firmly dates the event to 62 CE. It is of course possible that Hegesippus was speaking rather loosely. In any case, Josephus' account is to be considered the more reliable one. Josephus' date is also confirmed elsewhere by Eusebius (in Chronicles 2).
Of course I agree with you that the two stories refer to different incidents, and thus to different Jameses, but one is tempted to believe that the Hegesippus et al account with its ludicrous threefold causes of death is already a conflation of older reports of the deaths of different people, and that this conflation includes Josephus' relation of events.
 
The "Rejection of Pascal's Wager" site attempts a reconciliation, founded upon imprecision in Hegesippus' wording. See http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/jamesdeath.html Of course I agree with you that the two stories refer to different incidents, and thus to different Jameses, but one is tempted to believe that the Hegesippus et al account with its ludicrous threefold causes of death is already a conflation of older reports of the deaths of different people, and that this conflation includes Josephus' relation of events.

Doesn't Josephus go on to say that the incident that brought Vespasian and his legions into the picture was when the Fanatics took over the Temple and blockaded it against all foreigners? Does he say that they (the Fanatics) did it because of James getting stoned or was that just later Christians putting that spin on Josephus?
 
Doesn't Josephus go on to say that the incident that brought Vespasian and his legions into the picture was when the Fanatics took over the Temple and blockaded it against all foreigners? Does he say that they (the Fanatics) did it because of James getting stoned or was that just later Christians putting that spin on Josephus?
This notorious discrepancy has been discussed many times. See for example below:
In Origen three times and in Eusebius once, there appears the statement that Josephus believed that the calamity of the Jewish War (66-70) was visited upon the Jews by God because of their murder of James the Just. This murder is recounted by Josephus in Antiquities 20.9.1, where the phrase “brother of Jesus, the one called (the) Christ” is attached to James. But in that passage, as the reader may remember, the idea of a causal link between James’ death and the fall of Jerusalem does not appear, nor does it appear anywhere else in our extant copies of Josephus. From Origen, it would be possible to conclude that the idea was once there in Antiquities 20 and has since been removed, or that it appeared somewhere else in Josephus and was removed ...
http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/supp10.htm#James as the cause

To sum up: Origen tells us that Josephus didn't believe Jesus to be a christ, but extant copies of his works tell us he did. Origen tells us that Josephus believed Jerusalem was punished by God for the death of James. Extant copies say no such thing. Christian interpolation or deletion subsequent to Origen's commentaries has been suspected in both cases.
 
interesting. But do you mean the movement reported by Paul as containing James and Peter as members, or do you mean the community of Paul's followers, to whom he wrote his letters? For the two don't appear to have been the same, as evidenced by Galatians 2, and other places in Paul's writings. Or if they were at first the same, there was an early split, not merely between the DSS sect and the Jesus people, as you state, but between the James people and Paul, within the Jesus group.



I'm not really being that specific about details of any named individuals such as anyone called James or Peter etc. Even in the case of the canonical gospels where such names are frequently mentioned, it always seems to me shaky in the extreme to think that we should take mention of such names at face value as if the stories of those supposed individuals were actually true or in any way reliable.

Imho, documents such as the gospels are nowhere near being reliable enough to even consider taking the mention of such named individuals seriously, and trying to make deductions from whatever is said about (say) someone called “James” doing various things. I would disregard all that entirely.

Afaik, the DSS do not mention any of those named individuals. So I don’t think that issue of what to believe about James or Peter, even arises in reading the DSS. There might be coded reference there to specific individuals (whatever their actual names), but that would be heaping more & more guesswork on top of other guesswork.

So all I’m saying about the importance of the DSS is that, what the scrolls do appear to show is that 100 years or so before the time of St. Paul and Jesus, Jewish religious beliefs and practices in that region were already concentrating on belief in a messiah who was thought to be in some sense a supernatural figure rather than a human leader in the line of King David, and who’s role was to gather around him the faithful righteous followers of the scripture in order to lead them safely into heaven on what was to be an imminent day of judgement.

To that extent, the basis of the beliefs set out in the DSS, appears to be very similar to that which was preached around 50AD by Paul. And the whole thing was also similar to what appeared much later (say from around 100AD onwards) in the first examples of the gospels.

IOW – there seem to be very obvious similarities between the DSS community and the emergence of Christianity as described first by Paul, and then as later elaborated and extended in the gospels.

Without going into detail – in the Letters of Paul for example, there are various phrases and wordings which, prior to discovery of the DSS, were assumed to be simply the unique language of Paul. However, after the discovery of the DSS, which is of course relatively very recent in terms of biblical Christian history, it’s now clear (afaik) that a number of the phrases in Pauls letters are in fact almost word-for-word repetition of identical phrases in the scrolls.

Various later Christian practices as described in the gospels can of course also be found as similar parallels in the DSS, eg the notion of a “last supper”. The examples are not always literally identical, and we should not expect them to be 100% the same, but the basic ideas and practices are clearly similar across the whole of that period from the earliest DSS circa. 170BC, through to the latest dates of the canonical gospels around say 200AD.

Overall, all of these religious practices and beliefs, whether from the DSS or from 100 to 300 years later with Paul’s letters and the gospels of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John, are (afaik) simply elaborations of what was believed to be the religiously correct interpretation of the coded prophecies given in the various books of the Jewish OT dating back to at least 500BC.

So, IOW - between the prophecies of the ancient Jewish OT, and the extensive description of Jewish beliefs in the DSS, it seems to me quite clear where the later religious ideas of Christianity had arisen.
 
@IanS

I don't intend to assert anything about the historicity of James. It's simply a convenient label. But I think you understate the differences between the "James" group and the Pauline groups. These are vigorously asserted by Paul in Gal. 2, and attributed to James in Acts 21. James here reprimands Paul for teaching his followers to abandon the Law - a just accusation. He reminds Paul that the Jerusalem faithful are numerous and staunch defenders of the Law, and (a manifest threat) will assemble on hearing of Paul's presence. He instructs Paul to perform ceremonies of purification in the Temple. And then he asserts, as the proper teaching to be administered to Gentiles, a version of the Noahide Laws. When Paul enters the Temple, there is a riot, from which he is rescued by the Romans. No further contact between Paul and the "James" group is recorded.

This is entirely different from Christianity as it later developed in the gentile world under Paul's guidance. That's why I referred to it as "proto-Ebionite" (so that I wouldn't have to attribute it to "James" - let alone "Ebionus"). It may be a legitimate scion of the DSS sect, but if so, by that token alone, Paul's Christianity is not.
 
@IanS

I don't intend to assert anything about the historicity of James. It's simply a convenient label. But I think you understate the differences between the "James" group and the Pauline groups. These are vigorously asserted by Paul in Gal. 2, and attributed to James in Acts 21. James here reprimands Paul for teaching his followers to abandon the Law - a just accusation. He reminds Paul that the Jerusalem faithful are numerous and staunch defenders of the Law, and (a manifest threat) will assemble on hearing of Paul's presence. He instructs Paul to perform ceremonies of purification in the Temple. And then he asserts, as the proper teaching to be administered to Gentiles, a version of the Noahide Laws. When Paul enters the Temple, there is a riot, from which he is rescued by the Romans. No further contact between Paul and the "James" group is recorded.



OK, well I would not regard any of the above as reliable in any sense at all. I would disregard all those biblical stories entirely.

Afaik, there is no worthwhile corroboration of any such stories outside the biblical writing itself. And all of that writing comes to us only as anonymous copies written centuries later by various unknown Christians.

Objectively, that is frankly 100% useless as reliable information about anything.

That's why I prefer to look at the DSS, which are at least apparently genuine primary writing of the time and genuinely dated.

So ... I'm not disagreeing with you, but more specifically saying simply that I would not attempt to build any case or deduce any argument from anything written in what I think are clearly the most unreliable accounts imaginable in documents such as the anonymously written copies of things attributed to names such as Paul, Mark, Mathew, Luke John etc.


This is entirely different from Christianity as it later developed in the gentile world under Paul's guidance. That's why I referred to it as "proto-Ebionite" (so that I wouldn't have to attribute it to "James" - let alone "Ebionus"). It may be a legitimate scion of the DSS sect, but if so, by that token alone, Paul's Christianity is not.



Well what is definitely true afaik (ie according to what Hodge gives as the description of various DSS) is that Pauls visionary experience of Jesus, his belief in a apocalyptic messiah, and his saying that he gets his beliefs from no man but from God according to scripture, is afaik exactly the same as the beliefs set out much earlier by the DSS community.

And that is different from what Jewish religious belief had been in that region prior to the time of the DSS.

IOW - I would stick with whatever we can discern from the DSS.

Because, unlike Paul's letters and the various gospels, none of which could ever be regarded as reliable evidence in any objective sense at all, and all which in their extant examples are non-original copies written by unknown Christian scribes at much later dates (typically, several centuries at least after the religiously believed events ... none of which were ever witnessed by anyone anyway) ...

… unlike all that, the DSS are apparently completely reliable in what they say about beliefs in that precise region all through the period circa 170BC to 70AD, and they appear to be very accurately an indisputably dated.

What the DSS describe is a belief system which in it's wider general context (forget the detail of the gospels and Paul, because as I say - that is so unreliable as to be laughable), appears to be very similar indeed to what later became known as Christianity as described in the canonical gospels and as derived from the apparently earlier writing attributed to Paul.

IOW - If we ever want to get to the bottom of any of this, then I think we have to limit ourselves to sources that can be truly regarded as accurate and genuinely authored in that region at that time. And imho, that means the DSS rather than any of the biblical writing.
 
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I agree with you that the two stories refer to different incidents, and thus to different Jameses, but one is tempted to believe that the Hegesippus et al account with its ludicrous threefold causes of death is already a conflation of older reports of the deaths of different people, and that this conflation includes Josephus' relation of events.


We have seen such reports in modern times ala Grigori Rasputin who at the time (ie 1916) was reported to have poisoned, shot four times, badly beaten, and finally drowned. Later study has questioned that original report but it shows that even at that close to the event people were willing to believe a "ludicrous" fourfold cause of death. There is even a documented report of Rasputin sitting up during his own cremation after the February Revolution.
 
OK, well I would not regard any of the above as reliable in any sense at all. I would disregard all those biblical stories entirely.

Afaik, there is no worthwhile corroboration of any such stories outside the biblical writing itself. And all of that writing comes to us only as anonymous copies written centuries later by various unknown Christians.

Objectively, that is frankly 100% useless as reliable information about anything.

I hope you don't mind me butting in here, but I have one quibble with this: The stories in the bible are evidence of what the Authors wanted their readers to believe. That is, they wanted people to believe the Author's version of events.

When Paul talks of the "super Apostles" in Jerusalem he wants his readers to believe that he has just as much authority as them. He is telling people that they don't need to be circumcised or follow the rules on what they are allowed to eat. He claims this authority because of a "vision".

I think this is evidence of a conflict between Paul and a group in Jerusalem. That is pretty much the standard interpretation AFAIK.

That's why I prefer to look at the DSS, which are at least apparently genuine primary writing of the time and genuinely dated.

So ... I'm not disagreeing with you, but more specifically saying simply that I would not attempt to build any case or deduce any argument from anything written in what I think are clearly the most unreliable accounts imaginable in documents such as the anonymously written copies of things attributed to names such as Paul, Mark, Mathew, Luke John etc.

Then taking that standard interpretation above and comparing it with the DSS we see a lot of invective about a "Spouter of Lies" who preached against the Law in the midst of the congregation. (OK the dating of that scroll says that it is from earlier than Paul's time, but it is not impossible for that dating to be a bit off) The DSS people are fanatics about this liar, they want him dead, so the experts tell us that it can't be Paul because in the Bible(!) this conflict is portrayed as little more than a polite disagreement...

I'm inclined to think there was a bitter dispute that later Authors like gLuke wanted to downplay to present a picture like "We're all just one big happy family", "No one wanted to kill anyone", and "Paul being set upon by an angry mob in Jerusalem was just those evil Jews up to their old tricks, not Christians against a Heretic" and "Our good friends the Romans came to his rescue so he was obviously not a bad guy..."

Well what is definitely true afaik (ie according to what Hodge gives as the description of various DSS) is that Pauls visionary experience of Jesus, his belief in a apocalyptic messiah, and his saying that he gets his beliefs from no man but from God according to scripture, is afaik exactly the same as the beliefs set out much earlier by the DSS community.

And that is different from what Jewish religious belief had been in that region prior to the time of the DSS.

IOW - I would stick with whatever we can discern from the DSS.

It looks to me like Paul was using an association with the Fanatics in Jerusalem to add legitimacy to his Theology. Just like Joseph Smith imitating the language of the King James Bible when he wrote the Book Of Mormon... And it came to pass, that people expect Religions to use certain forms of words, for if not they are not Godly in their sight...

Because, unlike Paul's letters and the various gospels, none of which could ever be regarded as reliable evidence in any objective sense at all, and all which in their extant examples are non-original copies written by unknown Christian scribes at much later dates (typically, several centuries at least after the religiously believed events ... none of which were ever witnessed by anyone anyway) ...

… unlike all that, the DSS are apparently completely reliable in what they say about beliefs in that precise region all through the period circa 170BC to 70AD, and they appear to be very accurately an indisputably dated.

What the DSS describe is a belief system which in it's wider general context (forget the detail of the gospels and Paul, because as I say - that is so unreliable as to be laughable), appears to be very similar indeed to what later became known as Christianity as described in the canonical gospels and as derived from the apparently earlier writing attributed to Paul.

IOW - If we ever want to get to the bottom of any of this, then I think we have to limit ourselves to sources that can be truly regarded as accurate and genuinely authored in that region at that time. And imho, that means the DSS rather than any of the biblical writing.

I think it helps to read them both critically, remembering that the Bible writings were propaganda from the Pauline side of things and the DSS were from a bunch of Fundamentalist Apocalyptic Fanatics.

What all this means with regard to the existence or otherwise of a HJ is anyone's guess.
 
It's interesting how each of us stakes out a bit of different territory on this issue. It does go to the basic problem that almost nothing is reliably knowable about this period and most of the speculation is underpinned by more speculation and guesses only loosely constrained by facts are unlikely to be the same.

One idea I've considered is the possibility that the rift between the law followers and Paul portrayed in the NT that seems to give the stories a ring of truth was inserted into the stories because it mirrored the disputes between the gentile God Fearer groups and the Jewish populations over religious doctrine and the authors of the NT sought to create a story that would resonate with the proto-Christians of the time.

I don't know of any evidence for the idea but the possibility undercuts a bit the argument that at least part of the NT is reliable because if the authors hadn't been constrained a bit by truth they wouldn't have recorded details of a dispute that don't seem to further their cause.
 
I hope you don't mind me butting in here, but I have one quibble with this: The stories in the bible are evidence of what the Authors wanted their readers to believe. That is, they wanted people to believe the Author's version of events.

When Paul talks of the "super Apostles" in Jerusalem he wants his readers to believe that he has just as much authority as them. He is telling people that they don't need to be circumcised or follow the rules on what they are allowed to eat. He claims this authority because of a "vision".

I think this is evidence of a conflict between Paul and a group in Jerusalem. That is pretty much the standard interpretation AFAIK.



Then taking that standard interpretation above and comparing it with the DSS we see a lot of invective about a "Spouter of Lies" who preached against the Law in the midst of the congregation. (OK the dating of that scroll says that it is from earlier than Paul's time, but it is not impossible for that dating to be a bit off) The DSS people are fanatics about this liar, they want him dead, so the experts tell us that it can't be Paul because in the Bible(!) this conflict is portrayed as little more than a polite disagreement...

I'm inclined to think there was a bitter dispute that later Authors like gLuke wanted to downplay to present a picture like "We're all just one big happy family", "No one wanted to kill anyone", and "Paul being set upon by an angry mob in Jerusalem was just those evil Jews up to their old tricks, not Christians against a Heretic" and "Our good friends the Romans came to his rescue so he was obviously not a bad guy..."



It looks to me like Paul was using an association with the Fanatics in Jerusalem to add legitimacy to his Theology. Just like Joseph Smith imitating the language of the King James Bible when he wrote the Book Of Mormon... And it came to pass, that people expect Religions to use certain forms of words, for if not they are not Godly in their sight...



I think it helps to read them both critically, remembering that the Bible writings were propaganda from the Pauline side of things and the DSS were from a bunch of Fundamentalist Apocalyptic Fanatics.

What all this means with regard to the existence or otherwise of a HJ is anyone's guess.


OK, again I don’t want to disagree with any of that. Except in so far as saying - I don't think we have any idea what any preacher named Paul may have ever said.

We don't have anything actually ever written by "Paul".

If we are talking about differences between what is described in the DSS, and what comes to us late 2nd cent. or 3rd cent. and later Christian copies of so-called "Pauline Letters", then of course there are likely to be all sorts of differences.

Because those two sets of writing were produced by entirely different authors separated in time by perhaps 300 years or more.

Also, the aim of the two sets of writing is entirely different. The DSS are describing a set of rules which the existing members of that religious community are required to follow. Whereas the biblical writing, such as Paul's letters and the gospels, are devotional preaching aimed at converting an audience to the movement called "Christianity".

But what makes the later biblical writing (inc Paul) obviously similar to, and/or related to, the earlier DSS, is simply the basis idea in both religious movements of a superhuman messiah, sent directly by God, for the purpose of gathering the faithful to prepare for an imminent day of final judgement. On top of that, you have numerous other details of similarity such as dreams being "interpreted" and presented as reality.

There are of course numerous other similarities as I already mentioned above ... not least the fact that the DSS community existed in effectively the exact same location all through the exact same period in time, and arising from the exact same Jewish society, following as their basic religion the exact same attempts to interpret prophecies from the ancient Jewish OT.
 
It's interesting how each of us stakes out a bit of different territory on this issue. It does go to the basic problem that almost nothing is reliably knowable about this period and most of the speculation is underpinned by more speculation and guesses only loosely constrained by facts are unlikely to be the same.

.


That's precisely why I am rejecting entirely any deductions or analysis drawn from obviously unreliable writing such as later Christian copies of Paul and the Gospels.

And precisely why I am pointing out that in contrast, the DSS do appear to provide a genuine primary record of what that particular religious group believed at that time.

The fact that people may say that the DSS do not mention Jesus or Paul or anyone called "brother James" etc., is I'm afraid just hard luck lol! Because that's apparently the only really reliable material that we have to work with.

On the other hand, the DSS number in total over 800 scrolls, albeit almost all of them are in a poor fragmented state, and perhaps only a dozen or so are relatively well preserved.

However, regardless of the fragmented condition, the DSS do comprise and absolutely enormous amount of information about that particular religious group and their beliefs and practices at the time. Afaik, unlike the biblical writing, the DSS is unanimously agreed to be genuine and accurate ....

... the fact that the DSS may not reveal what we might have hoped about anyone named Jesus (or Paul, James, or anyone else in the later biblical writing) is, as I say, just the fact of the matter, and simply the basic position that we have to work from.
 
That's precisely why I am rejecting entirely any deductions or analysis drawn from obviously unreliable writing such as later Christian copies of Paul and the Gospels.
You will not make any deduction from, or attend in any way to any analysis whatsoever, of any ancient religious text?

ETA I mean, where we depend on significantly later copies, as in almost all cases.
 
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