Are the crucifixion nails of Jesus in Europe?

[George 152]

[/sigh]
You're right, of course.
The 2012 Olympics prediction thread was amusing, but the nails thread has been ludicrous, especially after learning that PC had accepted the MDC back in 2007.

Still, I've learned about 4th century Byzantium and hunted out early Byzantine music, which is never a bad thing.

And perfected my case-of-Dom casting technique.
What are the odds it could be accepted as an Olympic sport for 2016?

But yes, the OP is about 4 nails, not a bakers' dozen of them and specifically the 4 nails Helene was sold on in Jerusalem.

Has it ever been an article of faith to believe in the authenticity of those nails?

ETA:
Just to give an idea of what Helene would have listened to:

Make that case-of-Dom casting to include some of our finest Merlots and I'm all agog

 

[calcmandan]

20120826.1145

A spirit revealed that four nails were used for the hands and feet of Jesus when He was crucified. The nails were eight-sided, “octobado”. They had been retrieved from Jerusalem by Saint Helena, the mother of Emperor Constantine. It is incredible because the nails made of steel floated on the water and were brought to different places – Karpentas, Rome, Milan, and Paris.

Do I believe this? The story is also found at “Awit at salaysay ng Pasiong Mahal” (in Filipino) read and sang during Holy Week in the Philippines. Any comments?

No.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

To your health, pakeha.

Please pass this cheese platter around, you should never drink without a nibble.

And to PC: why do you keep dodging the question: why do you still believe in Ka Apaz/Ama? Everything she has said is proven to be incorrect, too vague, too common, or contradictory. And if it could not be disproven, it was fictional.

What reason do you have to believe anything this woman says?

20120922.0930

@Femke, #640

I believe in the spirit of Ama who uses the physical body of Ka Apaz. Do you understand, Femke? There are two entities: one is the spirit of Ama and the other is Ka Apaz. We (plural) talk to a spirit who we cannot see or touch but who we can hear and talk to and record on tape our sessions with Him. It took me eleven years (1983-1994) of doubting and being skeptical before I believed that that spirit is none other than the spirit of Jesus Christ.

You know why I believe in the spirit of Ama? Because what He says can be verified in the Holy Bible or in the Pasiong Mahal or logically correct. Example is Pontius Pilate who died and was buried in Israel which caused unrelenting earthquake and flooding, and then the Pharisees threw his body into the sea, and then a crucifixion nail was also thrown the sea which floated and ended up in Paris which Saint James found.

Since you do not understand Filipino, you may just select and listen to the entry and exit of spirits in http://aristean.org/audioidx.htm and http://aristean.org/mp3-files.htm . The sound is not coming from the mouth area of Ka Apaz but from her head, the fontanel area. For English translation, you may select from those listed in http://aristean.org/sermon.htm .

Everything Ama said is proven to be incorrect, too vague, too common, or contradictory? Pick out what is good for your soul (if you believe you have one) and discard what is evil.

 

[Stomatopoda]

I believe...

No one is doubting that you believe those things. No one has challenged the fact that you do believe. There is no need to keep repeating what you believe. There is no need to keep reminding us that it took you however-many years to be fooled. There is no need to keep repeating how many people have been fooled.

Do you comprehend this?

If a billion people (plural) each took 5 decades to be convinced that 2+2=17, does that make 2+2=17 even the slightest bit less ridiculous? Please answer this question with a yes or no. Nothing more. Yes or no.

 

[gabeygoat]

Pick out what is good for your soul (if you believe you have one) and discard what is evil.

Why does Ama tell you evil things?

 

[Blue Mountain]

<snip>

You know why I believe in the spirit of Ama? Because what He says can be verified in the Holy Bible or in the Pasiong Mahal or logically correct. Example is Pontius Pilate who died and was buried in Israel which caused unrelenting earthquake and flooding, and then the Pharisees threw his body into the sea, and then a crucifixion nail was also thrown the sea which floated and ended up in Paris which Saint James found.

All very interesting, if any of it were actually true! What Ka Apaz has said flies in the face of what little we know about Pontius Pilate.

Also, why the Pasiong Mahal? I'd never even heard of it until I came upon this thread, yet you give it the same weight as Holy Scripture. Your god certainly works in mysterious ways. He apparently has a message he wants everyone to hear, yet he first speaks through a bunch of nomadic goat herders in the Middle East, then through an obscure Filipino woman. Why doesn't he simply take over every TV channel simultaneously? We're taking about a being who apparently created this entire universe (don't get me started on that—do you have any idea just how mind-boggling vast this universe is?) and can raise people from the dead. Yet he can't make his voice heard using modern technology?

<snip>
Everything Ama said is proven to be incorrect, too vague, too common, or contradictory? Pick out what is good for your soul (if you believe you have one) and discard what is evil.

Sorry, the Bible doesn't work that way. It explicitly says that if a person makes a prophecy that does not come to pass, that person is a false prophet and is not to be followed. And I am given to understand (not having read the thread about the London Olympics) that Ka Apaz did just that.

How many false prophecies, historical mixups, and just plain wrong things must Ka Apaz say before you begin to question her? Just one? A dozen? A hundred? Because it seems that pretty much everything that you've posted so far that she has said (at least, stuff that's verifiable in the real world) is simply wrong.

I've highlighted the question because I intend to keep asking it until I get a number.

 

[pakeha]

Make that case-of-Dom casting to include some of our finest Merlots and I'm all agog

Merlot is very, very nice indeed, but the ecclesiastical connotations of Dom make it uniquely suited for this discussion, IMO.

Now about the nails mentioned in the OP

...we've established the nails of Karpentras and Milan BOTH claim to the the nail fashioned into Constantine's bridle.

One or both of these nails must logically be fake.
How could a true spirit not know that, PC?

Would you please answer this, PC?

... you may just select and listen to the entry and exit of spirits... The sound is not coming from the mouth area of Ka Apaz but from her head, the fontanel area. ....

I've listened to those recordings several times.
Are those really her best efforts at imitating a masculine voice, PC?

I understand the medium is covered by a cloth from head to foot when making those whooshing noises, so those guesses about where the sound comes from are rather sad, actually.

Back to the nails. The history of the nail relic in Karpentras doesn't mention being floated from the Holy Land via Paris.
Why would that be, PC? Not because the medium got it wrong, like she got it wrong about st James?


And a round of Dom for all.
With some cashews.

 

[Astreja]

You know why I believe in the spirit of Ama? Because what He says can be verified in the Holy Bible or in the Pasiong Mahal or logically correct.

The problem with that is that the Bible is full of silly mythology and is not valid evidence for our purposes. Also consider that Ka Apaz, who invented Ama to deceive you and other people, would merely have to repeat Bible stories that she already knows in order to make her character Ama agree with the Bible.

It's easy to make up something that agrees with a book if you already have the book. I, Myself could do a dramatic breakfall onto the floor, cover Myself with a bedsheet, pass a bit of gas and wax poetic for hours about the Norse Gods, Don Quixote or Batman, and My words would be just as valid as the stuff that Ka Apaz has told you.

Not that I would bother, mind you. I have standards.

Everything Ama said is proven to be incorrect, too vague, too common, or contradictory?

From what I've seen so far, yes. To that, I would add "just plain silly." The idea of nails magically transporting themselves across half of Europe is silly. Roman soldiers concerning themselves with symmetry of cruciFiction victims is also silly. John the Baptist running around preaching after his head was cut off is very, very silly. And from there, the story descends into various degrees of ludicrous, preposterous, absurd, inane, nonsensical, unbelievable and barmy.

 

[ddt]

This is the thread where you get rewarded with a case of Dom for posting in it?

Paris may not be directly along the way on land from Jerusalem to Santiago de Compostela but how could Saint James found the nail in Paris if he had not been there?

Have you ever looked at a map? It only makes sense to travel from Jerusalem to Santiago over Paris when you're flying (yep, Santiago has an airport; I doubt any other company but Iberia has regular flights). Apart from the fact that St. James was already dead, as mentioned.

How could Spain adopt Santiago as its patron saint if he had not been there?

No requirement to have been there. Amsterdam (the city) has St. Nicholas as its patron saint; they don't claim he's ever been there, but St. Nicholas is also the patron saint of sailors.

Who could have evangelized the Spaniards?

Obviously not St. James, for the reason of being dead.

Remember the Kingdom of the Visigoths? It extended from the Iberian Peninsula to south-western France. Paris was in the Kingdom of the Franks, just to the north of the Visigoths.

What do these kingdoms that were established some 400 years after Jesus have to do with St. James?

Also remember the Spanish era used until about the 14th century AD? The Spaniards abandoned this era and instead used the era when Jesus was born in 1 BC.

Wait, you're claiming the Spanish used a different calendar?

And perfected my case-of-Dom casting technique.

Then maybe you should diversify into tins of beluga caviar? They go nicely with champagne (well, my experience only extends to Crimean bubblies produced by freedom-hating commies).

 

[Craig B]

Wait, you're claiming the Spanish used a different calendar?

If he is claiming that, he's right. Uniformity of calendar didn't exist in medieval Europe, but the Spanish lands were even further distinguished by a different era year count. See wiki, "Spanish Era".

The Spanish era, Hispanic era or Caesar era refers to the dating system used in Hispania until the 14th century, when the Anno Domini system was adopted. It began with year one in what is 38 BC,[1] probably the date of a new tax imposed by the Roman Republic on the subdued population of Iberia. Whatever the case, the date signifies the beginning of the Pax Romana in Hispania. To convert from a date in the common era to the corresponding year in the Hispanic era, add 38 to the common-era year.[1] A date in the Hispanic era was written thus: "Era CMXLI" for "anno domini [AD] 903".
The use of the Hispanic era probably began in Iberia in the 3rd century. The reason for its particular popularity is unknown. Usage died out in different parts of the Iberian peninsula at different times:

In Catalonia, usage ceased after the Council of Tarragona in 1180 (Era MCCXVIII). In Aragon, Valencia, and Majorca, it was abandoned during the reign (between about 1217 and 1276) of James I. In Castile, use was suppressed by John I in accord with the cortes of Segovia in 1383 (in fact, on December 25, 1384). In Portugal, usage ceased in the first quarter of the fifteenth century, on August 22, 1422 (Era MCDLX), during the reign of John I. In Navarre, it survived longer, until the end of the fifteenth century.

 

[hurdygurdy]

You know why I believe in the spirit of Ama? Because what He says can be verified in the Holy Bible or in the Pasiong Mahal or logically correct. Example is Pontius Pilate who died and was buried in Israel which caused unrelenting earthquake and flooding, and then the Pharisees threw his body into the sea, and then a crucifixion nail was also thrown the sea which floated and ended up in Paris which Saint James found.

So despite all the evidence that destroy what you heard from Ka Apaz you still find them "logically correct" and keep repeating her absurd claims. It obvious that you are here just to preach. In a forum for skeptics. Just curious, how many people have you converted, or convinced, since you were proclaimed the messenger of God?

 

[pakeha]

^
A good question.

But back to the rival claims of Carpentras and Milan for the identity of their respective nail relics.
Which claim is right, PC?

Anyway, a round of Dom for all!

 

[PeaceCrusader]

^
A good question.

But back to the rival claims of Carpentras and Milan for the identity of their respective nail relics.
Which claim is right, PC?

Anyway, a round of Dom for all!

20120925.2150

@pakeha, #669

I am not sure, pakeha. From “Pasiong Mahal”, it says that the one in Carpentras is feasted as “Clavo Santo”. Ama said that the one that floated which Saint James found in Paris is called “Clavo Santo”. This means that this first nail was taken from Paris to Carpentras.

From “Pasiong Mahal”, Santa Elena threw a nail into the Adriatic Sea to calm a storm. This nail floated and ended up in Paris and is at the Basilica of Saint Denis. So there were two nails that were thrown into the sea which both ended up in Paris.

From Wikipedia, I found that there is a temple for San Dionisio in Paris which is the Basilica of Saint Denis. I also learned that Saint Denis is the Patron Saint of France and a cephalophore who walked for ten kilometers from Montmartre to his burying place preaching with his head in his hands.

The one in Milan may not be authentic but the Iron Crown of Lombardy may be. Monza, Lombardy is 15km north-northeast of Milan. I still have to find the tape where I heard that the nail has to be “octobado” or eight-sided.

It says in “Pasiong Mahal” that the third nail was immediately placed in the crown of Constantine and is in a temple in Rome. Where is this temple? The temple maybe a basilica or a cathedral or a church. Is the Iron Crown of Lombardy the same one that Santa Helena made as diadem of her son, Emperor Constantine?

 

[godless dave]

Does the Bible say the thieves were nailed to their crosses as well? Remember, nails were not normally used in crucifixion.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Does the Bible say the thieves were nailed to their crosses as well? Remember, nails were not normally used in crucifixion.

20120926.0040

@godless dave, #676

John 19:18 – “Where they crucified him, and two others with him, on either side one, and JESUS in the midst.”
Similar to this are in Matthew 27:38, Mark 15:27, and Luke 23:32.

So the thieves “were nailed to their crosses as well”. They were crucified like Jesus.

FYI, the crosses were of the same dimensions. There were pre-bore holes for the nails.

Ama said that Santa Helena found eight rusty nails and four not rusty nails. It means that the thieves were not only crucified, they had signs which were nailed to their crosses like Jesus.

 

[Nay_Sayer]

20120926.0040

@godless dave, #676

John 19:18 – “Where they crucified him, and two others with him, on either side one, and JESUS in the midst.”
Similar to this are in Matthew 27:38, Mark 15:27, and Luke 23:32.

So the thieves “were nailed to their crosses as well”. They were crucified like Jesus.

FYI, the crosses were of the same dimensions. There were pre-bore holes for the nails.

Ama said that Santa Helena found eight rusty nails and four not rusty nails. It means that the thieves were not only crucified, they had signs which were nailed to their crosses like Jesus.

kaz/ama says a lot of things, so far all of those things have been wrong.

 

[godless dave]

20120926.0040

@godless dave, #676

John 19:18 – “Where they crucified him, and two others with him, on either side one, and JESUS in the midst.”
Similar to this are in Matthew 27:38, Mark 15:27, and Luke 23:32.

So the thieves “were nailed to their crosses as well”. They were crucified like Jesus.

That's not what the text you quoted says.

 

[pakeha]

And how about a quick round of Dom while we mull over PC's latest posts?
Camembert on thin rounds of rye bread, with caviar for colour contrast.

...I also learned that Santa Helena found twelve nails in the fourth century AD. Therefore, it must have been true of what Ama said that one nail was thrown into the sea when Pontius Pilate died in the first century AD. ...

Why must that be true, PC?
The Pharisees would only learned of PP's death long after the event, after all. Why would they associate a storm on a distant sea with the death of a far-off ex Governor?

From “Pasiong Mahal”, it says that the one in Carpentras is feasted as “Clavo Santo”. Ama said that the one that floated which Saint James found in Paris is called “Clavo Santo”. This means that this first nail was taken from Paris to Carpentras.

From “Pasiong Mahal”, Santa Elena threw a nail into the Adriatic Sea to calm a storm. This nail floated and ended up in Paris and is at the Basilica of Saint Denis. So there were two nails that were thrown into the sea which both ended up in Paris.

From Wikipedia, I found that there is a temple for San Dionisio in Paris which is the Basilica of Saint Denis. I also learned that Saint Denis is the Patron Saint of France and a cephalophore who walked for ten kilometers from Montmartre to his burying place preaching with his head in his hands.

The one in Milan may not be authentic but the Iron Crown of Lombardy may be. Monza, Lombardy is 15km north-northeast of Milan. I still have to find the tape where I heard that the nail has to be “octobado” or eight-sided.

It says in “Pasiong Mahal” that the third nail was immediately placed in the crown of Constantine and is in a temple in Rome. Where is this temple? The temple maybe a basilica or a cathedral or a church. Is the Iron Crown of Lombardy the same one that Santa Helena made as diadem of her son, Emperor Constantine?

Does it matter?
These are simply pious legends, PC.
No one really believes St Helene found the nails of the crucifixion, do they?


Which church in Rome that claims to have a clavo santo?
PC, we've gone over that.
http://www.sacred-destinations.com/italy/rome-santa-croce-in-gerusalemme

... I know that it is the best solar perpetual calendar that will replace the existing Gregorian calendar. A Chinese website even adopted it as the universal calendar.

Could you give a link to that site, please?

...Ama said that Santa Helena found eight rusty nails and four not rusty nails. It means that the thieves were not only crucified, they had signs which were nailed to their crosses like Jesus.

Really, PC, your medium dedicated a lot of time to your group!
What kind of offerings were given her on these occasions?

And it's time for a second round of Dom for all.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

And how about a quick round of Dom while we mull over PC's latest posts?
Camembert on thin rounds of rye bread, with caviar for colour contrast.


Why must that be true, PC?
The Pharisees would only learned of PP's death long after the event, after all. Why would they associate a storm on a distant sea with the death of a far-off ex Governor?


Does it matter?
These are simply pious legends, PC.
No one really believes St Helene found the nails of the crucifixion, do they?


Which church in Rome that claims to have a clavo santo?
PC, we've gone over that.
http://www.sacred-destinations.com/italy/rome-santa-croce-in-gerusalemme


Could you give a link to that site, please?


Really, PC, your medium dedicated a lot of time to your group!
What kind of offerings were given her on these occasions?

And it's time for a second round of Dom for all.

20120926.1135

@pakeha, #685

Saint Helena found in the fourth century AD twelve nails. One nail, according to Ama, was thrown into the sea by the Pharisees when Pontius Pilate died most likely during the first century AD. So 12 + 1 = 13. Thirteen nails in all which means that four nails to Jesus and three to each of the two thieves to nail them in their crosses, plus one nail to each of the three signs.

Who do we believe: the legend that Pontius Pilate’s corpse being taken to Vienne from less credible sources or from Ama Himself?

Yes, pakeha, it matters about “Clavo Santo”. Ama said that the first nail that floated to Paris was called “Clavo Santo” and “Pasiong Mahal” states that the nail at “Karpentas” is called “Clavo Santo”. How did Carpentras acquire the nail? Which name is correct: “Karpentas” or “Carpentras”?

You know, it is like the name of the Philippines before the coming of the Spaniards in 1521. Ama revealed that the name was Maio Mait which I found to be logically correct.

You know the relationship of the Roman Emperor Constantine and Santa Helena, don’t you?.

There is no place in Rome that says that their relic is called “Clavo Santo”. It is only in Karpentas that says so in their fiesta (feast).

Acts 1:15 says that the number of names together was about a hundred and twenty. After three years, these were just the followers of Jesus. How many were fed? Five thousand men (Matthew 14:13-21; Mark 6:30-44; Luke 9:10-17; John 6:1-14) and another, four thousand men (Matthew 15:32-38; Mark 8:1-10). Where were they?

How many stuck to listen to Ama? I think it is even less than a hundred after so many years. That is why Ama said that even only us will be saved (http://aristean.org/transcript141.htm ). Ama was not after quantity but quality of believers.

Here is the Chinese website that I am talking about. I googled “aristean universal calendar”.
hotLinks.html
woo43a.net/hotlink.html
Universal Esperanto Language. 聯合國語 | | Aristean universal Calendar.全球月份牌 |. | Country Codes | Flags | Airport Codes | • | Currency conversion.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

There is no Ama, just a crusty old faker.

10, 12, or 13, which is it?
Also, where did Pontius Pilate die again?

Ka Apaz is a fraud, that explains it.

20120926.1415

@abaddon, #684

There are thirteen nails in all. One nail was thrown into the sea when Pontius Pilate died during the first century AD. Saint Helena, during the fourth century, found twelve nails, eight of which were rusty and four, not rusty.

You also do not believe that there are two separate and distinct entities: Ka Apaz and Ama. You think that Ka Apaz is just faking Ama. If that is your belief, so be it. I am not forcing anyone to believe what I believe in.