Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[Clayton Moore]

The situation with pertussis is actually pretty interesting. Here's an overview:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/the-problem-of-waning-pertussis-immunity/ .
The acellular pertussis vaccine does not last as long as was initially expected, and, under standard schedules, kids around 12 have a gap in immunity. So, yes, a less-than-ideal vaccine. What makes it interesting is why the switch to the acellular vaccine when the cellular vaccine lasted longer. The cellular vaccine possibly did produce more symptoms than the current version. However, the long-term safety profile had no particular red flags.

However, there was a documentary, "DPT: Vaccine Roulette" and a book "A Shot in the Dark," that claimed severe neurological side-effects (not autism in particular, that I'm aware of). These received a great deal of publicity, and the acellular vaccine was brought in more to deal with unfounded suspicion than on good public health grounds. (The story is similar to what occurred with Thimerosol.)

Something else that will sound familiar: pertussis used to typically be diagnosed from the classic whooping symptom. But recently, medical professionals have become much more aware of less severe forms of the disease, so it's being diagnosed in people who previously would have just been treated as having a persistent cough.

All the people waving the red flags are being ignored. The people waving the red flags are the parents of the victims. What is the agenda of the parents of the victims?


as was initially expected


Expected? I throw ingredients into a pot and expect it to turn out a certain way. It's not science.

 

[Clayton Moore]

I would bet money that you have no medical evidence to prove that any significant number of immune problems are caused by vaccines. Starting with the ones that predate vaccines.



Do you subscribe to literally every possible nutjob theory? Is there a twitter feed you're getting your idiocy from?

Actually I find the idiocy from the forum's clan of fools and haters and believe the opposite.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Expected? I throw ingredients into a pot and expect it to turn out a certain way. It's not science.

Then please explain what you think science is, if not basing a hypothosis upon your expectations, testing the hypothosis then creating a theory based on the data?

Also, those red flags are scrutinised to see if they are valid concerns or not. We do not assume your opinion to be correct because it is based entirely on the uninformed opinions of others. We test those opinions, and make a theory based on the data. No data supports your claims.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Actually I find the idiocy from the forum's clan of fools and haters and believe the opposite.

So you dont base your beliefs on any useful data, evidence or proof?

Good to know. Thanks for another stundie nom.

 

[zooterkin]

Ever wonder why so many people have immune system problems?

So many? Would you care to put a number on that?

Shame that was apparently the only part of jdc's excellent post you appear to have noticed.

Would you like to take another look, and acknowledge that vaccination against measles is the way to prevent children dying from it?

Oh wait. Vaccines screw around with a child's immune system.

No, wait, they don't.

It's like the vertigo problems that are on the rise. Couldn't possibly be from holding a cell phone on your ear for hours a day. Or could it?

Off topic, so I won't bother asking you to substantiate it.

 

[jdc324]

Ever wonder why so many people have immune system problems?

Oh wait. Vaccines screw around with a child's immune system.

I'm not sure how you work that one out Clayton. Do you think vaccination is connected with primary immunodeficiency? Most primary immunodeficiencies are genetic and diagnosed early. So, those people who are born with an immunodeficiency... that's the vaccines is it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_immunodeficiency

Primary immunodeficiencies are disorders in which part of the body's immune system is missing or does not function properly. To be considered a primary immunodeficiency, the cause of the immune deficiency must not be secondary in nature (i.e., caused by other disease, drug treatment, or environmental exposure to toxins). Most primary immunodeficiencies are genetic disorders; the majority are diagnosed in children under the age of one, although milder forms may not be recognized until adulthood. About 1 in 500 people is born with a primary immunodeficiency.

For secondary immunodeficiency, which I think is more common: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunodeficiency#Secondary_immunodeficiencies

Secondary immunodeficiencies, also known as acquired immunodeficiencies, can result from various immunosuppressive agents, for example, malnutrition, aging and particular medications (e.g. chemotherapy, disease-modifying antirheumatic drugs, immunosuppressive drugs after organ transplants, glucocorticoids). For medications, the term immunosuppression generally refers to both beneficial and potential adverse effects of decreasing the function of the immune system, while the term immunodeficiency generally refers solely to the adverse effect of increased risk for infection. Many specific diseases directly or indirectly cause immunosuppression. This includes many types of cancer, particularly those of the bone marrow and blood cells (leukemia, lymphoma, multiple myeloma), and certain chronic infections. Immunodeficiency is also the hallmark of acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS),[6] caused by the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV). HIV directly infects a small number of T helper cells, and also impairs other immune system responses indirectly.

You'll note that vaccinations are not included in the list of causes.

Do vaccines "overwhelm" or "weaken" the immune system? No: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/109/1/124.long

If vaccines overwhelmed or weakened the immune system, then one would expect lesser immune responses when vaccines are given at the same time as compared with when they are given at different times.41,42 However, the following vaccines induce similar humoral immune responses when given at the same or different times: 1) MMR and varicella,43,44 2) MMR, diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis (DTP), and OPV,45 3) hepatitis B, diphtheria-tetanus, and OPV,46 4) influenza and pneumococcus,47 5) MMR, DTP-Hib, and varicella,48 6) MMR and Hib,49 and 7) DTP and Hib.49

Vaccinated children are not at greater risk of subsequent infections with other pathogens than unvaccinated children.58–60 On the contrary, in Germany, a study of 496 vaccinated and unvaccinated children found that children who received immunizations against diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus, Hib, and polio within the first 3 months of life had fewer infections with vaccine-related and -unrelated pathogens than the nonvaccinated group.61

I couldn't find any evidence of vaccination causing immunodeficiency (seriously - try googling "vaccine caused immunodeficiency") but I did find evidence that vaccination does not weaken or overwhelm the immune system.

As zooterkin noted, you seem to have ignored the rest of my post. As you haven't taken issue with the information regarding the reduction in deaths from measles infection due to vaccination, can I assume that you don't dispute it and that you accept that vaccination is the best way to prevent children dying from this disease?

 

[Giordano]

If a mistake has been detected and corrected only idiots dwell on it.

Great! So perhaps you might begin to re-consider the other "facts" that you obtain from these crazy anti-vaccination sites?

 

[Mudcat]

It's like the vertigo problems that are on the rise. Couldn't possibly be from holding a cell phone on your ear for hours a day. Or could it?

No, it's not.

Expected? I throw ingredients into a pot and expect it to turn out a certain way. It's not science.

Cooking isn't a science, it's an art. And sometimes medical results don't turn out the way you expect, that's life.

 

[Robert Prey]

Do you have one that continues to the present day? Are you going to address the graph Tomblvd posted with the number dropping sharply after vaccines were introduced? Do you have any sites other than anti-vaxxers? Primary sources, maybe?

I'm also noting a complete lack of backup for the herd immunity claim, or the alteration of the numbers.



Yes, you are.



Thing is, without vaccines, there's no "herd immunity", and, eventually, a resurgence in smallpox.



Yes, you're just full of those.

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

Source please.

Source please.

Amazing how you think an experimental vaccine will have the same effects as one that's gone through decades of testing and refinement. I note that you don't actually present any statistics.

Just one question at a time, please.

 

[Robert Prey]

What exactly is the y-axis showing on your graph?

(for those that know, please let Robert answer)

Read the graph. If you already know, what are you asking me for?

 

[332nd]

All the people waving the red flags are being ignored. The people waving the red flags are the parents of the victims. What is the agenda of the parents of the victims?

The people pointing out that their children are doing fine though they've had all of the vaccines are being ignored by you.

Expected? I throw ingredients into a pot and expect it to turn out a certain way. It's not science.

Well yeah. Now try throwing the ingredients in a baking pan...

 

[Tomblvd]

Read the graph. If you already know, what are you asking me for?

The graph doesn't specifically say what it is. And I'm asking to see if YOU know what you are talking about.

 

[Robert Prey]

Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
There is a whooping cough epidemic in many areas of the US today. Most of the victims have had the pertussis vaccinations. Shortly after the first Salk Polio trials, many of the vaccinated came down with Polio due to the dead vaccine being not so dead. And after the wide spread use of the live Polio vaccine, in some areas, the only Polio victims contracted the disease from the live vaccine.

Proof please.

"The children of parents who opt out of vaccines are not generally affected by the yearly, consistent rising number of Pertussis cases. "

"CDC officials have said that most of the children who have come down with whooping cough were vaccinated."

http://www.examiner.com/article/the...ic-could-mean-that-the-vaccine-is-not-working


One question at a time, please.

 

[Tomblvd]

One question at a time, please.

Still waiting for one answer. What is the y-axis on your graph?

 

[Robert Prey]

Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
. Shortly after the first Salk Polio trials, many of the vaccinated came down with Polio due to the dead vaccine being not so dead.

Proof please.

It's known as the Cutter Incident.

"In 1955, Cutter Laboratories was one of several companies licensed on April 12 by the United States government to produce Salk polio vaccine. In what came to be known as the Cutter Incident, some lots of the Cutter vaccine – despite having passed the required safety tests – contained live polio virus in what was supposed to be an inactivated-virus vaccine. Cutter withdrew its vaccine from the market on April 27 after vaccine-associated cases were reported..."

"...The mistake resulted in the production of 120,000 doses of polio vaccine that contained live polio virus. Of the children who received the vaccine, 40,000 developed abortive poliomyelitis (a form of the disease that does not involve the central nervous system), 56 developed paralytic poliomyelitis and of these 5 children died as a result of polio infection.[6] The exposures led to an epidemic of polio in the families and communities of the affected children, resulting in a further 113 people paralyzed and 5 deaths..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutter_Laboratories

 

[Robert Prey]

Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
And after the wide spread use of the live Polio vaccine, in some areas, the only Polio victims contracted the disease from the live vaccine.

Proof please.

Mutant Polio Virus Spreads in Nigeria

By
CBSNews

So when WHO officials discovered a polio outbreak in Nigeria was sparked by the polio vaccine itself, they assumed it would be easier to stop than a natural "wild" virus.

They were wrong.

In 2007, health experts reported that amid Nigeria's ongoing outbreak of wild polio viruses, 69 children had also been paralyzed in a new outbreak caused by the mutation of a vaccine's virus

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/08/14/health/main5242168.shtml

 

[Robert Prey]

Still waiting for one answer. What is the y-axis on your graph?

I do not respond to a poster's question unless he first states a point. Do you have one?

 

[zooterkin]

Just one question at a time, please.

You're unable to deal with multiple questions in one post? Really?

 

[Robert Prey]

Should I protect my children against a range of awful diseases or not? Gosh that's a hard one.

If you don't want to think about it, research it, pros versus cons, etc., then it's an easy choice. Do what you are told and don't think at all.

 

[Tomblvd]

I do not respond to a poster's question unless he first states a point. Do you have one?

You posted a graph to prove "polio was in decline when mass vaccs started".

Since that graph has no proper identification of the y-axis, we don't know what you are showing us.