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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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On the side of the Germans, the war seemed to be sold on ideology, sure. But considering the reasons for the USA and USSR to enter the war, I'd like to see some solid argument for that by you. Thing is, we're talking after the war. A LOT after the war.

There is no serious doubt that prominent figure like Ilya Ehrenberg were involved in anti-German and pro-communist propaganda. Radio Luxembourg was a contemporary American propaganda project. Britain and France were also belligerents. Propaganda does not imply falsehood, but it leads naturally to exaggeration and lack of scrutiny of evidence. You may be talking "a LOT after the war", but I am talking about the atmosphere at the time of the Nuremberg trials.


You need to show that this was done for propaganda purposes. See TSR's post.

I need only cite Nick Terry on that, who asserts that the change was made for "museum purposes" [post 5409]. I have replied to TSR separately.
 
I need only cite Nick Terry on that, who asserts that the change was made for "museum purposes" [post 5409]. I have replied to TSR separately.

No, you're going to have to cite someone or something else. "Museum purposes" is far removed from "propaganda purposes". I should know. I work at a museum. We don't deal in propaganda.

A museum attempts to demonstrate past events using exhibits. In the case of the Krema at Auschwitz, it demonstrates the original purpose of the gas chamber by reconstructing the building into its previous form. That's not propaganda. If anything, it's reversing the obfuscations attempted by the Nazis.
 
There is no serious doubt that prominent figure like Ilya Ehrenberg were involved in anti-German and pro-communist propaganda. Radio Luxembourg was a contemporary American propaganda project. Britain and France were also belligerents. Propaganda does not imply falsehood, but it leads naturally to exaggeration and lack of scrutiny of evidence. You may be talking "a LOT after the war", but I am talking about the atmosphere at the time of the Nuremberg trials.

You know, this doesn't prove what you claimed.
 
So you'll use the definition [of skepticism] you prefer rather than the one in common usage. Got it.

Stanford Encyclopaedia of Philosophy has articles on skepticism and ancient skepticism that both corroborate the centrality of doubt to skepticism. Most people would find that more authoritative than Wikipedia. The common usage of words inherited from the ancient world like 'skepticism' or 'stoicism' is the ones indicated in the original texts that gave them their meaning. If you wish to use the word in another sense that is fine, but I'd appreciate an explanation.


No, it [history] relies on corroboration, generally. The more corroboration an apparent fact has, the greater value as evidence. Really, you have a Doctor of history in this very thread.

Yes, but both fact and corroboration may well be pieces of human testimony, spoken or written, that we use our psychological knowledge (a.k.a. nous, common sense) to evaluate. I doubt if Dr Terry would disagree.


If only there were sources other than eyewitnesses which were considered evidence.

Oh, wait. ?

We have yet to come to physical evidence, some of which in my view refutes key eye-witness claims.


Why? It shows that prisoners were being crammed into small spaces other than the showers without the panicked rush you describe. And that was before months of ill-treatment.

I was agreeing with you. There is still a difference of degree between a railway carriage with 100 people and several doors and windows and an underground room with no doors containing 2,500 people according to the BBC's eye-witness Dario Gabbai and perhaps 350 according to Dr Terry. I thought most of the gassing victims were killed on arrival.


Not really. People do horrible things, if properly conditioned. Look up the use of operant conditioning from WW2 to the present.

You seem to be using a behaviourist model here, as this phrase was coined by BF Skinner. On a more cognitive model, which Daniel Goldhagen implicitly uses and which is more common nowadays, they have to be persuaded that killing is the right or best thing to do. So our evaluation of the plausibility of this or that reason to kill is relevant to the believability of killing. I agree this can happen. I also agree this comes second to physical, forensic evidence.


This wasn't warfare. This was attempted genocide.

Both involve killing, so the psychology of killing is relevant to both.


It seems to me that you're coming at this backward; you're taking the claims and deciding they were psychologically unlikely, instead of determining whether the Nazis did what they claimed. If they did what they claimed, then obviously they were psychologically capable of it.

That was not the procedure in my case. I assumed they did what they were said to have done and I tried to reconcile this with my knowledge of human nature and the development of German culture. I made some progress, but at the end of the day there was still a lot of cognitive dissonance for me. I think this is pretty common in popular culture. Finally, I looked into the primary evidence and was surprised to find the revisionist claims were prima facie coherent and well-referenced, contrary to what I had always been told and always believed. I am now following a reasonable (skeptical?) method by testing them by expounding the key revisionist claims on a forum where they are likely to be most vigorously opposed.


The problem is, there was plenty of evidence other than the testimony, as has been pointed out repeatedly.

This is still a point at issue for me. We have begun to discuss this in relation to Krema I.


Was there any corroboration to this claim [by Paget of torture at Nuremberg]? Were all of these men witnesses? What evidence is there that the abuse was directly related to coercion of testimony, and not just plain ol' prisoner abuse, like the Gitmo scandal?

There is independent reference to the Simpson Report in the American press, so I suppose such a report existed. As far as I know it has never been published. According to Paget's description, the blows were delivered by the American War Crimes investigation team. He does not say that they were delivered specifically during interrogations. However, he adds that:
As Gestapo men they [three SD witnesses whose evidence was to be introduced in the Manstein trial] would, of course, appreciate the desirability of saying exactly what the American investigators wanted. They had indeed kept themselves alive by doing precisely that. The importance of the Simpson report was that it showed the alternative to saying just what the prosecution wanted.​
This seems to indicate attempts to coerce testimony.
 
You are too quick to allege dishonesty. The original plans for that room in the building, as I have stated above with sources, indicate that it was originally a morgue (it is called "Leichenkeller"). The buildings were altered after the war on the basis of eye-witness testimony to look like a gas chamber. This seems to be conceded. You have to explain why we should prefer the eye-witness testimony to the written plans of the people who constructed the building.

No, those were the plans drawn up by others, which were to be used to construct the building. There is *zero* evidence to support the contention that it was actually *used* as a corpse cellar, or was even suited *as built* to be one -- why would such a room need a peephole, for instance.

There are, however, several pieces of evidence to support its *use* as a gas chamber.

Anyone actually familiar with *all* of the evidence is being dishonest to suggest that a single document, created before construction and use, contain the only possible use for this facility.
 
You need to show that this was done for propaganda purposes. See TSR's post.

I need only cite Nick Terry on that, who asserts that the change was made for "museum purposes" [post 5409].

So, an historical museum is always nothing but propaganda?

No?

Then, as Belz has said, You need to show that this was done for propaganda purposes.
 
Unfortunately for you and revisionism, it's really not as simple as that.

This is no misfortune for me either way, quite the reverse.


1000s of Auschwitz inmates and guards saw with their own eyes how weak, sick and exhausted Jews were selected from individual blocks or camp sectors (BIa, BIb, BIIa etc) and taken to barracks (like Block 25 or Block 7) to await transfer to the crematoria. These 1000s of witnesses all saw something which is perfectly probative, even if they never set foot inside the crematoria themselves.

This is consistent with attempts by SS medical staff to isolate sick patients with infectious diseases such as typhus, which again is consistent with their extensive attempts to disinfest the camp in order to preserve life. As the son of eye-witness Kitty Hart said in an ITV documentary, why would they have had hospitals (if they wanted to kill everyone)? Her reply was less than convincing.


The same group of witnesses could observe smoke rising and note the addition of the open-air pyres in 1944, and smell what was going on, even without an immediate line of sight.

The problem here is to establish whether these particular crematoria emitted smoke and a smell. This was not addressed in depth in the Irving Trial, where it was simply said that these crematoria might be "different", but it appears from Mattogno that these were normal Topf ovens, designed not to smell (which would distress a civilian population) and which do not smoke. You also omit to mention that some eye-witnesses mention "flame and soot" (e.g. in Spielberg's Last Days), which would have to be reconciled with the expectation that a brick chimney would crumble if set afire. How many flame emitting chimneys have you seen? Would you not expect the Fire Brigade to be called? And of course there could have been organic smells from the nearby synthetic rubber factory.


Probably 1000s of Birkenau inmates either worked in close proximity to the crematoria, as was the case for the Kanadakommando in 'Kanada II', right next to Kremas IV and V, or had some line-of-sight observation of the crematoria. They could see people filing in and not come out; they could observe SS men throwing in Zyklon through the holes in side-walls (Kremas IV, V) or roof (Kremas II, III). That too is powerfully probative even if these witnesses never set foot inside the crematoria. There are quite a lot of such witnesses.

187,000 people left Auschwitz. The number of witnesses is much smaller and thus there is room for it to be self-selecting. As for people filing in and not coming out, the normal reaction would be to ask 'what on earth is happening?' and to express outrage and do something about it when the reply came. This relates back to my reliance on psychology point. I have known a few Jews in my life and I would not describe them as abnormally indifferent to injustice or unconcerned about the fate of their co-religionists, if anything quite the reverse, but this is implied in the narrative you are proposing.

The "throwing" of unheated Cyclon B pellets into cold rooms is a strange way to release the gas quickly. According to Robert Faurrisson, the SS would have had to ask the victims to shut the windows again in Kremas IV and V, as they open inwards and the window lock is on the inside. Presumably someone has come up with an answer to that?

Quite a few witnesses also had secret contacts with the Sonderkommandos, who lived until spring 1944 in a sealed off block within the men's camp. The very fact that the crematorium squad's barracks was fenced in and guarded was a bit of a give-away. Nonetheless there were enough contacts that inmates received valuables and goods passed on by the Sonderkommandos as aid or traded, and thus we get witnesses who report on the names of specific Sonderkommandos which confirm what we know from the Sonderkommandos themselves.

This cuts both ways. If the segregation of the Sonderkommandos is a "give-away", then the contacts between them and the inmates gives it back again and the location of the secret killing operation in full view of thousands of camp residents gives it back in spades.
 
It was fairly clear that record-keeping was meant, but the absence of an overall budget doesn't mean that there are no accounts or financial records which are probative of genocide.

In the UK, bookkeeping usually means financial record keeping, but no matter.


A moment's reflection should indicate why there would be no overall budget: because the National Socialist state was at war while occupying multiple separate countries which each had their own exchequers and currencies.

That is a possible reason, but it is quite possible to prepare consolidated accounts, as any multinational corporation does. I'm not sure what the German practice on consolidation was.


Even if one looks only at the Reichsmark zone of Greater Germany, then one finds that financial budget-planning went out the window; as Schwerin von Krosigk stated in 1942, the attitude that 'Geld spielt keine Rolle' (money is no object would be an equivalent phrase) was almost universal across the many different Party and State agencies.

That single offhand remark does not demonstrate an absence of budgeting. It is unlikely that a large bureaucratic organisation could function without financial controls. The Germans introduced a new system of accounts in 1938, to improve financial control, so they were not indifferent to it.


Moreover, the Final Solution was carried out by the SS/Police apparatus in conjunction with other agencies, each of which had its own budgets, but this becomes vastly multiplied because the SS agencies operated in foreign countries and thus the fiscal oversight was devolved away from a central ministry. The SS/Police also carried out numerous other tasks to the point where there were exceedingly few units whose exclusive task it was to deal with the Final Solution.

Quite, they all had budgets. As Enoch Powell said, power devolved is power retained. You say "there were exceedingly few units whose exclusive task it was to deal with the Final Solution." I find that a noteworthy statement.


What this means is that the precise costings were effectively lost in very large Police budgets which were appropriated locally against occupation costs in most cases, expenditures being offloaded onto the exchequers or the currency valuations of foreign countries.

It was largely self-financing then, OK, I can see that.


For example, in the Generalgouvernement of Poland, the SS/Police demanded occupation costs totalling 755 million RM between 1940 and 1944, with the 1942 demand coming to 185 million RM. In the same year, police costs in the Ostland and Ukraine totalled 476 million RM. These sums paid for salaries, administration and a certain amount of the construction expenses. However, construction was carried out by what amounted to a Waffen-SS agency, which may not necessarily have been accounted for in the above figures.

This is an incomplete picture, but no matter.


It's well known that Globocnik reported costs of the Aktion Reinhard camps as 11 million RM in his final 'balance sheet', but this probably didn't include the salaries of the SS men stationed in the camps since they continued to be paid out of T4 in Berlin, and thus out of what were essentially 'slush funds' from a budgetary perspective.

There seems to be some confusion here, as costs are not included in balance sheets, but in income and expenditure accounts. But again, no matter.


[...] Meanwhile, the Ostbahn charged for the transport costs of shipping Jews to the camps, and charged the SS for freight costs removing stolen property from the camps. The charges for deportations seem to have been absorbed by the civil administration, which levied its own occupation costs and also oversaw the Ostbahn, which was tantamount to a seller of services as a state monopoly transport business. So no one agency was even in a position to be charged for all costs relating to the entire process.

So I would expect the civil administration accounts to show costs for deportations and the SS to show freight costs. The Ostbahn could net the amount out or show it as a through cost. This leaves the relationship between the civil adminisration and the SS a bit unclear.


The SS collected valuables but also charged private companies for the use of slave labour in the same region, eg Heinkel's works in Budzyn was staffed by several thousand Jewish forced labourers, guarded by the SS, who demanded payment. Some of the money went towards offsetting local costs in Poland, but the valuables were shipped back to Germany and absorbed into the Reich's coffers.

They wouldn't be in a position to demand payment without keeping financial records. "Absorbed in the Reich's coffers" is also a bit vague. The stolen goods would have to be turned into cash (sold) or distributed. I have never heard any description of this happening, strange to say.


Actual accounts can be very good evidence . The bank account records of Sonderkommando Kulmhof, i.e. the SS unit running the death camp of Chelmno, survived the war. They reveal large payments of valuables into the account, i.e. robbed from victims, but also large payments for items like tons and tons of quicklime.

Again, this is a bit vague on the income side, the only thing you can pay into a bank account is cash. As for quicklime, in a war with so many victims, civilian and military, there would be a huge demand for it. It doesn't look good though, admittedly.


The same can be said for supply records, even without costs. HSSPF Russland-Sued took delivery of 100s of 1000s of rounds of ammunition on several occasions immediately prior to major mass executions, including Babi Yar, during 1941, leaving a trace in the quartermaster records of Army Group South. The timing immediately before a mass shooting is rather telling. The obvious inferences are no different to the inferences drawn by other historians or even forensic accountants regarding other sets of records, books, accounts or statistics. In neither case are the bank or supply records the only sources available, but they add confirmation from a different angle.

It is noteworthy, though the massacre was preceded by a military advance, so ammunition might need to be replenished in any case. I agree that the different pieces of evidence need to be put together, though my experience is that when you try to go beyond the evidence it is easy to make mistakes.
 
Solzhenitsyn was the first to use '100 million' and applied it exclusively to the USSR, which is a remorseless exaggeration. He also contradicted himself about the number sometimes in the same text. When this figure is repeated whether inspired by Solzhenitsyn or the Black Book of Communism, the telling point is how standards of evidence suddenly evaporate, which becomes thoroughly hypocritical when the same people going on about '100 million victims of Bolshevism' are almost invariably Holocaust deniers. [...]

I have no quarrel with this, or with much of the rest of what you say here, relatively minor quibbling apart. You are wrong to say that Macdonald only writes about the Jews, as he has also written about the Gypsies and Chinese in Malaysia for comparative purposes. I strongly agree with you on monocausalism, though I suspect that crossing boundaries about discussing Jewish/Zionist agendas may be necessary to make intellectual progress. Conversely, the concept of "anti-semitism" seems to be an unexamined assumption in your own thinking, as far as I have understood it.

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Off-topic for moderated thread.
 
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OK, but first you have to bear in mind that Article 19 of the Protocols of the International Military Tribunal states that "The Tribunal shall not be bound by technical rules of evidence." and article 21 states that "The Tribunal shall not require proof of facts of common knowledge but shall take judicial notice thereof." In other words, the rules of evidence that exist to protect defendants, such as the Birmingham Six, did not apply at Nuremberg.

First, Article 21 is in fact a restatement of a rule that normally applies in court proceedings. Facts that are "common knowledge" would be, for example, that war happened, that Germany surrendered, that Hitler was the Chancellor of Germany. Such commonplace things do not particularly need to be proven in court. The function of judicial notice was and is to avoid wasting time. Unless you have some particular fact in mind, of which judicial notice was taken, raising Article 21 is rather misleading.

Second, complaining about a lack of rules of evidence might possibly be relevant to the fairness of the trial, however, it doesn't alter the evidence or the weight we give it from an historical perspective. To put it simply, historians do not say that the holocaust occurred because the Nuremberg Trials convicted the defendants. They says so because the evidence supports that conclusion. The rules of evidence are irrelevant.
Prosecution evidence was withdrawn before the matter was settled. In the case of Hoess, we have an interview with one of his interrogators in Legions of Death (1983). 137 out of 139 is pretty damn close to all.
So... you're complaining about evidence which was withdrawn? And complaining that it was unreliable because military investigators were found to have abused prisoners, not actually in relation to the evidence complained of, but in other cases. Note 137 out of 139 cases which were in which interrogations were investigated. Investigated, perchance, because abuse had been reported? So, 137 out of how many interrogations in total, do you think?




I've no problem with that general statement.[/QUOTE]
 
They wouldn't be in a position to demand payment without keeping financial records. "Absorbed in the Reich's coffers" is also a bit vague. The stolen goods would have to be turned into cash (sold) or distributed. I have never heard any description of this happening, strange to say.
Of course that doesn't mean it didn't happen and/or that corruption and theft weren't at play.

Again, this is a bit vague on the income side, the only thing you can pay into a bank account is cash. As for quicklime, in a war with so many victims, civilian and military, there would be a huge demand for it. It doesn't look good though, admittedly.
I could be wrong but AFAIK, there's zero use for quicklime in any burial situation other than trying to eliminate evidence. I have never, ever heard of any government for any reason using quicklime in burials of military or civilian casualties. Not to mention, military and civilian corpses have been routinely disinterred for accountability and/or reburial.
 
This is a partial reply to TSR and UK2SE, who made similar objections to a previous post of mine.

No, you're going to have to cite someone or something else. "Museum purposes" is far removed from "propaganda purposes". I should know. I work at a museum. We don't deal in propaganda.

A museum attempts to demonstrate past events using exhibits. In the case of the Krema at Auschwitz, it demonstrates the original purpose of the gas chamber by reconstructing the building into its previous form. That's not propaganda. If anything, it's reversing the obfuscations attempted by the Nazis.

Nicolas Sarkozy said recently that "every political project contains an educational project." Even museums have political agendas and if they are honestly presented there is nothing wrong in that. There is obviously a selection of past events to demonstrate and that requires that you prioritise what you think important. If you wish though, I will withdraw the term "propaganda" and replace it with "educational". However, the Auschwitz museum also endorsed Ilya Ehrenberg's 4 million death toll on stone plaques until around the late 1980s when Dr Piper had them replaced by 1 to 1.5 million ones, a bit of an "Oops" by educational standards.


No, those were the plans [for Krema I] drawn up by others, which were to be used to construct the building. There is *zero* evidence to support the contention that it was actually *used* as a corpse cellar, or was even suited *as built* to be one -- why would such a room need a peephole, for instance.

There was no external door to the original morgue according to the original plan. You can see this in thus video by Robert Faurrisson:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krZH0xQQuFo
The relevant passage is from 20.30 minutes. The external door following alteration to an air-raid shelter was a standard air shelter door. It is not an unreasonable assumption (I go no further) that it was used initially as a morgue, as there were deaths in the camp from typhus and from other causes and the bodies had to be disposed of for hygienic reasons. I believe this is in fact one version of the accepted story as to original use.

There is also strong evidence to counter its use as a homicidal gas chamber, such as the absence of ferric cyanide compounds in the walls (above trace levels, see the Rudolf Report) and the sheer insanity of having a room containing flammable, explosive gas (hydrogen cyanide) next door to a room with a white-hot heat source (i.e. crematoria ovens).


There are, however, several pieces of evidence to support its *use* as a gas chamber.

"Supporting" is not proving. According to you, these pieces of supporting evidence outweigh the evidence of the original purpose as recorded in written contemporaneous documents and the surviving physical evidence I have mentioned above. What are they then and what makes them decisive?


Anyone actually familiar with *all* of the evidence is being dishonest to suggest that a single document, created before construction and use, contain the only possible use for this facility.

On the "dishonesty" point which you seem keen on, I did not suggest that it was the only possible use and you assume that I am familiar with all the evidence. So your assertions about my moral character are mere guesswork on your part.
 
I have no quarrel with this, or with much of the rest of what you say here, relatively minor quibbling apart.

So that bit is settled for the moment.

You are wrong to say that Macdonald only writes about the Jews, as he has also written about the Gypsies and Chinese in Malaysia for comparative purposes.

Missing the point. In his trilogy on the Jews, Macdonald abstracts Jewish influence out from quite vibrant and significant contexts. That he has done other studies similarly abstracting out minorities from their social-historical-political contexts doesn't change this problem.
 
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This is a partial reply to TSR and UK2SE, who made similar objections to a previous post of mine.

Nicolas Sarkozy said recently that "every political project contains an educational project."
And the relevance of a has-been French politician to your accusations, is ...?
Even museums have political agendas and if they are honestly presented there is nothing wrong in that.
One notes that you do not bother to even try to support this...
There is obviously a selection of past events to demonstrate and that requires that you prioritise what you think important. If you wish though, I will withdraw the term "propaganda" and replace it with "educational".
The two are not synonyms in English.
However, the Auschwitz museum also endorsed Ilya Ehrenberg's 4 million death toll on stone plaques until around the late 1980s when Dr Piper had them replaced by 1 to 1.5 million ones, a bit of an "Oops" by educational standards.
What makes this Mr Ehrenberg's mistake?

And no as a matter of fact it is a relatively minor detail, given that the bad methodology was known from the beginning and so the figure discounted by those educational standards you so desperately want to be thought of as propaganda.
There was no external door to the original morgue according to the original plan.
What?

You mean changes were made after the blueprints were drawn up?

The rest of this see what this means to your appeal to those blueprints' authority, even if you can't -- or pretend that you can't.
You can see this in thus video by Robert Faurrisson:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krZH0xQQuFo
The relevant passage is from 20.30 minutes. The external door following alteration to an air-raid shelter was a standard air shelter door.
You can, of course, *cite* this standard?
It is not an unreasonable assumption (I go no further) that it was used initially as a morgue, as there were deaths in the camp from typhus and from other causes and the bodies had to be disposed of for hygienic reasons.
Ignoring the teeny tiny fact that morgues do not "dispose of bodies for hygienic reasons"...
I believe this is in fact one version of the accepted story as to original use.
Then you will have no problem citing a real historian advancing this theory.
There is also strong evidence to counter its use as a homicidal gas chamber, such as the absence of ferric cyanide compounds in the walls (above trace levels, see the Rudolf Report)
There is no such absence, see the Rudolf Report and ignore his lies about what the traces someone else who also had no expertise found mean.

And Rudolf? Isn't he the one who, when confronted with his lies, was forced to the admission that "chemistry is not the science which can rigorously disprove the Holocaust?"

Or are you referring the the Rudolf who cites Herr Gauss in support of his crap -- while not disclosing that Gauss is a pen name for (wait for it)





Germar Rudolf.

Or maybe it's the Rudolf who was canned after trying to lean on his internship at the Plank Institute to lend an air of gravitas to the whole affair?


I suppose he / they are all you have. Sad, really...
and the sheer insanity of having a room containing flammable, explosive gas (hydrogen cyanide) next door to a room with a white-hot heat source (i.e. crematoria ovens).
At what concentration does HCn become a fire risk, and at what concentration does it become lethal to mammals?

And you can, of course, demonstrate that "white hot" is applicable to ambient air in the room next to a crematorium?
"Supporting" is not proving.
No, it's supporting.

Nothing supporting your insistence that blueprints which you acknowledge do not indicate the use(s) to which this was at some point put, are the be-all and end-all of the uses of a given room.
According to you, these pieces of supporting evidence outweigh the evidence of the original purpose as recorded in written contemporaneous documents and the surviving physical evidence I have mentioned above.
You have "mentioned" no such, let alone cited it.
What are they then and what makes them decisive?
To start, I refer you to the Krakow Institute study, done with appropriate methodology including the use of proper control samples, which show that Krema II - V were exposed to concentrations of HCn far in excess of what can be documented as having occurred -- how did you guys put it? "once, long ago..."
On the "dishonesty" point which you seem keen on, I did not suggest that it was the only possible use and you assume that I am familiar with all the evidence. So your assertions about my moral character are mere guesswork on your part.

Silly me, expecting that if you are posting "propaganda" and citing liars to support your cause that you had, you know, read the "opposing books" to which you referred.

The only possible response is the advice to *actually* read those books, for comprehension, and get back to us when you have more than the regurgitated lies of Jew haters to cast doubt on what is the most well-documented genocide, ever.
 
Of course that doesn't mean it didn't happen and/or that corruption and theft weren't at play.

As a semi-governmental body (the SS) was involved in the "collection of valuables" and government received the funds, this might be described as (arbitrary) confiscation rather than theft. I agree that this does not prove a negative: Nick Terry states that he has evidence of it happening.


I could be wrong but AFAIK, there's zero use for quicklime in any burial situation other than trying to eliminate evidence. I have never, ever heard of any government for any reason using quicklime in burials of military or civilian casualties. Not to mention, military and civilian corpses have been routinely disinterred for accountability and/or reburial.

This assumes that the quicklime was used for burial at all. As Nick Terry et al say, you can't look at things in isolation. A google search for "quicklime" produces the following:
"There are a wide range of uses for quicklime, ranging from mortar to flux, and the substance has been used by humans for centuries. [...] When used responsibly, quicklime can be immensely useful for things like mixing strong mortar, acting as a flux in smelting, and treating wastewater, among many other things." (from wisegeek.com, accessed today)

"Quicklime (which is also known as burnt lime or calcium oxide) is a chemical compound used in agriculture, mining, and a variety of other industrial processes." (from quicklime.co.uk, accessed today).
It can also be used in theatrical lighting - hence the phrase "in the limelight". Can we exclude the possibility of defensive constructions, anti-tank ditches, etc using mortar being made by the Kulmhof Sondercommando? As you can see, a lot depends on the context you see things in. Once you stray from the accepted path, a lot of other possibilities open up.
 
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First, Article 21 is in fact a restatement of a rule that normally applies in court proceedings. Facts that are "common knowledge" would be, for example, that war happened, that Germany surrendered, that Hitler was the Chancellor of Germany. Such commonplace things do not particularly need to be proven in court. The function of judicial notice was and is to avoid wasting time. Unless you have some particular fact in mind, of which judicial notice was taken, raising Article 21 is rather misleading.

Thanks for this explanation. I did not have in mind any particular act of judicial notice at the IMT trial, so you are right that it is of limited relevance. I do not concede that there were no such acts.

However, it is relevant to the question of revisionism in general that German courts now take judicial notice of the verdict of the Nuremberg trials in cases involving German holocaust deniers. This makes it impossible to debate the holocaust during contemporary trials and has led to the imprisonment, not only of "deniers", such as Rudolf, but of their defence lawyers, such as Silvia Stolz and Horst Mahler. The latest similar case to receive publicity is Gerhard Ittner, recently extradited from Portugal to Germany to serve a prison sentence arising in part from his views on the holocaust. Comparable rules are also applied by other German authorities, e.g. the Bundesprüfstelle für jugendgefährdende Medien (Federal Office for Youth-endangering Media) which from July 2012 is considering "indexing" (leading to prohibition of distribution) the German edition of Mattogno's book 2010 on Sobibor, issued by a UK publisher. Neither of the two UK MEPs I have written to on the latter subject has responded to my queries. In both these cases it seems to be only the radical right that supports free speech.


Second, complaining about a lack of rules of evidence might possibly be relevant to the fairness of the trial, however, it doesn't alter the evidence or the weight we give it from an historical perspective. To put it simply, historians do not say that the holocaust occurred because the Nuremberg Trials convicted the defendants. They says so because the evidence supports that conclusion. The rules of evidence are irrelevant.

Yes, revisionists do not rely on the trial verdicts either, so that is common ground. The origin of the evidence in the IMT trial though, is relevant to the use that historians are justified in making of it.


So... you're complaining about evidence which was withdrawn? And complaining that it was unreliable because military investigators were found to have abused prisoners, not actually in relation to the evidence complained of, but in other cases.

No, you misunderstand me. I was referring to evidence from former Gestapo officers that it was proposed to introduce into the 1949 Manstein trial, having previously been admitted in the IMT trial, but which was withdrawn from the 1949 Manstein trial after Manstein's defence lawyer Paget proposed to introduce the Simpson Report as evidence. This latter trial used English rules of evidence. The IMT trial did not.


Note 137 out of 139 cases which were in which interrogations were investigated. Investigated, perchance, because abuse had been reported? So, 137 out of how many interrogations in total, do you think?

I have no knowledge of how cases of interrogation were selected in Simpson's investigations and as his report has never been published (as far as I know) I have no way to check. It could also have been a random sample (Note: I say "could", not "was"), but you are right that that was an unwarranted assumption on my part. The Report still implies that mistreatment was widespread. It would certainly be worth investigating further by anyone proposing to rely on IMT evidence.
 
In the UK, bookkeeping usually means financial record keeping, but no matter.

No it's often used idiomatically to mean any kind of records or count. As in the above example.

That is a possible reason, but it is quite possible to prepare consolidated accounts, as any multinational corporation does. I'm not sure what the German practice on consolidation was.

No such consolidated accounts have shown up despite more than 65 years of research since they would be extraordinarily interesting to historians. There is a balance sheet from 1944 showing gains to the Reich from occupation costs and Clearing, but closer examination reveals that some of the transfers aren't even registered in that balance sheet.

For example, the Generalgouvernement gave up a Wehrbeitrag to the Reich of 1.49 billion RM by spring 1944, but this only counts the money which actually crossed the border; there was also a trade deficit registered in Clearing of 3.525 million, while the combined Nazi authorities - civil administration, police and thus the SS, plus Wehrmacht plus railways and other agencies, were also funded locally within the GG's internal budget to the tune of 9.3 billion RM.

Each institution involved in these transfers would have had internal accounts; Heinkel ran a factory in Budzyn which had to pay out in zloty while transferring products to the Reich as exports, seeking payment in RM. The same for every other business, but also the same for every state institution which crossed borders, including the SS/Police.

The problem from the perspective of the Reich Finance Ministry was retaining oversight of central appropriations versus local appropriations. The Reichsrechnungshof - one of the functional equivalents of the office for budget management in the US today - certainly toured the occupied territories and found gross examples of waste and corruption in many institutions, including SS commands.

That single offhand remark does not demonstrate an absence of budgeting.

The entire letter demonstrates an absence of what we would regard as properly organised budgeting. 'Geld spielt keine Rolle' is a quote from Krosigk's famous 'Osthyaenen' letter in which he accuses the Ostministerium and other agencies in the occupied eastern territories of massive waste, inefficiency and a lack of proper communication with the RFM.

The Reich Cabinet last met before the war, the Reichstag was a rubber-stamp institution, the basic systems of government were demonstrably breaking down and degenerating within the Third Reich.

Compounding the problem was a distinct reluctance on the part of the regime to raise the tax burden in wartime, so that by the end of the war, there was a significant rise in inflation within Germany proper despite the best efforts of the finance planners to export as much inflation to the occupied territories as possible - which worried them nonetheless/

When Hilberg says 'no budget' he is referring quite clearly to the kind of Budget that is given a capital B, that has been agreed properly by a process of coordination. No such coherent coordination existed in the Third Reich, because it was organised on a polycratic basis and expanded under wartime conditions into a multinational empire of occupation.

This stands in stark contrast to the USSR, where Gosplan continued to function with proper budgeting and centralised financial planning, under the direction of Voznesensky. There simply wasn't a Voznesensky figure in the war planning of the Third Reich.

It is unlikely that a large bureaucratic organisation could function without financial controls. The Germans introduced a new system of accounts in 1938, to improve financial control, so they were not indifferent to it.

Financial controls are a different matter to a 'Budget'.

Quite, they all had budgets. As Enoch Powell said, power devolved is power retained. You say "there were exceedingly few units whose exclusive task it was to deal with the Final Solution." I find that a noteworthy statement.

Police battalions were rotated from frontline duty (actual combat) to garrison duty to antipartisan duty to carrying out anti-Jewish actions. All it took was to order a paramilitary or even military unit to murder the Jews of a specific locality and they then spent 1/365th of their activity that year wiping out an entire community. Or they were ordered to deport Jews from specific districts and took a month or two months to do so. Then they went back to harvest protection duty or whatever.

So how on earth could their involvement in the Final Solution be 'budgeted'? The costs of maintaining a police battalion would be the same no matter what, varying only in terms of purely logistical expenditures of fuel and ammunition. And once the police battalion had removed the Jews from a specific district in 1941 or 1942, then they spent the rest of the war having virtually nothing to do with the Holocaust.

The same with the Gestapo or Sicherheitspolizei commands, who spent a lot f time pursuing resistance movements or other enemies, and only had to supervise "short, sharp shock" actions in the vast majority of cases. Only a few of the larger Stapoleitstellen had substantial Jewish desks who had prolonged serial deportations to organise, eg in Berlin or Vienna. They drew on other manpower to get their jobs done, in between other tasks.

It also shouldn't be difficult to remember that the KZ system was similarly multifunctional. Auschwitz continued to function as a KZ for political prisoners, mainly Poles, throughout its existence. It was also a labour camp complex. It was in a continual process of construction, which was justified to the relevant authorities such as the Speer Ministry, who had the ability to choke off building supplies, in terms of its contribution to the war effort and production.

The reason to co-locate a destruction function on a production and construction site was to benefit from the economics of location; it was infinitely cheaper from a practical as well as financial perspective to ship the same groups to the same site, sort them out, and lose the costs in a much larger project. The crematoria, which were built x 4 for no other purpose than to carry out the Final Solution, were the single largest construction cost in the budget for Birkenau. But as a proportion of the total costs of constructing Birkenau they were not significant.

It was largely self-financing then, OK, I can see that.

Yes and no. The Final Solution turned a global profit for the Nazi regime because of the plunder of Jewish property and the exploitation of Jewish labour. But the profits were mostly realised in other fiscal territories to where it was carried out. The financial authorities on a district level in the Reich oversaw the expropriation of most of the wealth that German Jews might have possessed, long before the SS robbed the same Jews of their last money, jewellery or gold teeth. Auschwitz almost certainly did not turn a unit "profit" despite shipping out quite large quantities of valuables and despite hiring out quite substantial numbers of forced labourers to private and state owned businesses.

The Nazis charged their Axis allies transportation costs when handing over Slovakian or Croatian Jews; Slovakian Jewish property flowed into the Slovakian exchequer, but the Slovaks then were burdened by a large Clearing debt with the Third Reich. In the French case, the costs of deportation were simply dumped onto the military administration's claims for occupation costs, and the local SS budget was thus not affected since the Wehrmacht paid in the first instance, followed by the French taxpayer and consumer. Meanwhile, the household contents were shipped by a staff under Rosenberg to the Reich for auction, raising further money for the Reich, and also requiring vastly more trains to move than were required for the people being deported.

This is an incomplete picture, but no matter.

Of course it is incomplete. The works on finance in the Generalgouvernement run to many thousands of pages.

There seems to be some confusion here, as costs are not included in balance sheets, but in income and expenditure accounts. But again, no matter.

The confusion is yours, to ignore the inverted commas around 'balance sheet'. Globocnik's report on the economic aspects of Aktion Reinhard is not an actual accountancy balance sheet. It simply states costs i.e. expenditures and then notes income.

My point was that 11 million RM costs for setting up Aktion Reinhard excludes an awful lot of items. The figure almost certainly pertains to the cost of constructing the facilities and a few other incidental expenditures. The evidence indicates that the SS men continued to be paid directly from Berlin by T4.

The 11 million RM figure clearly doesn't include the railway costs of deporting Jews to the camps, or the costs of 'hiring' the Ordnungspolizei and Sicherheitspolizei units who carried out the deportations and accompanied the trains to the camps.

So I would expect the civil administration accounts to show costs for deportations and the SS to show freight costs. The Ostbahn could net the amount out or show it as a through cost. This leaves the relationship between the civil adminisration and the SS a bit unclear.

The Ostbahn was a wholly owned subsidiary of the GG civil administration, and the number of Jewish transports even in 1942 at the peak of the deportations was not vast. The task of the Final Solution was fully known to the GG civil administration and even organised by some Kreishauptmaenner with barely any SS involvement at all. Thus, one would expect that the costs of deporting people were as you speculated, borne by the civil administration and effectively lost in the mix.

There are very few surviving records from the Ostbahn, but the few that do survive show that goods trains carrying construction materials to and from the Reinhard camps, as well as trains carrying plundered property to the Lublin sorting depots, were registered as Waffen-SS trains in order to secure transport permits, which also would have applied to the KZs as a whole since they were formally part of the Waffen-SS. One expects that the "SS" paid for the freight costs but whether this was then merged via the Waffen-SS into Wehrmacht expenditures within the GG is entirely unclear.

There was a very marked duality within the Lublin SS commands; Globocnik had original small-b budgetary authority for Majdanek which was a WVHA-IKL command and thus, part of the Waffen-SS, but seems to have lost this by the time the Reich Finance Ministry drew up the SS budget and itemised Majdanek's staff in late 1942. The Trawniki camp was administratively under SSPF Lublin until August 1943 then became a WVHA camp for a while, then reverted back to SSPF Lublin.

The IVa, Verwaltungsfuehrer, of SSPF Lublin, Georg Wippern, answered in turn to a WVHA command structure going back up to HSSPF in Krakow, and thus to Oswald Pohl. In any case, the WVHA was tasked with receiving and transferring all property from both Auschwitz and 'Lublin', as well as some other territories in the occupied Soviet Union, and the WVHA was Waffen-SS. And precisely because of the WVHA having responsibility for the property side of Aktion Reinhard, the freight costs of moving property from Treblinka to Lublin may not have come from SSPF Lublin at all.

All this was fairly typical for the SS/Police and indeed the Nazi regime. Convoluted chains of command and lines of administrative authority were the absolute norm.

A very good study which deals with much of the above is Jan-Erick Schulte, Zwangsarbeit und Vernichtung, on the WVHA.

They wouldn't be in a position to demand payment without keeping financial records.

the distinction between general financial records an a Budget with a Capital B has already been dealt with. There are very large numbers of surviving payment demands or account sheets from KZs indicating how many days were worked in a month for which firm and giving a RM cost. There is a fair amount of such information for Monowitz, to name but the most obvious example.

These payments would have then been swallowed up in the Abt IV sections of each KZ, which oversaw payment of salaries and most associated costs, and which received transfers from elsewhere to make sure the pay packets of the guards were delivered on time, no different to the Wehrmacht.

"Absorbed in the Reich's coffers" is also a bit vague.

It depended on the type of valuables. Gold, jewellery and foreign currency went to the Reichsbank which was under the Reichswirtschaftsministerium. The RWM had responsibility for overseeing their trade or issue. Any gold, jewellery or foreign currency that was not stolen by SS men in the camps went to Germany. Those were high-value items and generated specific regulations from the WVHA regarding their disposal. There are transport orders showing shipments of such valuables being taken to Berlin. The issue was of obvious interest after the war and came up at Nuremberg for example, in conjunction with the case against Walter Funk.

Saying the Reich's coffers is just a casual way of saying the Reichsbank. Those valuables were centrally processed.

Local currency, however, mostly went to other bank accounts controlled by the SS and was then probably recycled into local expenditures. In 1945, when the Poles liquidated the Kommerzialbank AG Krakau, they found an account of the SS-Wirtschafter of HSSPF Ost, marked 'Sond. Kto. R II', with 6.6 million zloties left in the account. This was the same account that was paid into by SS agencies participating in Aktion Reinhard.

One source indicates that 8.9 million RM made it to the Reichsbank from Lublin, mainly consisting of 6.25 million RM worth of foreign currency,which badly needed to be used in trading with neutrals. Globocnik's total figure was 178 million RM, and this included the valuables and cash taken by regional SSPF commands during the deportations, who had to pay them to Lublin.


The stolen goods would have to be turned into cash (sold) or distributed. I have never heard any description of this happening, strange to say.

Try reading more books. The subject is addressed repeatedly, eg in Martin Dean, Robbing the Jews; Ingo Loose, Kredite fuer NS-Verbrechen, on banking in occupied Poland; or Goetz Aly, Hitler's Beneficiaries, which contains a wealth of data even if the conclusions are not widely accepted.

Stolen clothing and personal effects were simply disbursed on a charity basis by the SS largely to ethnic German resettlers in the Warthegau. It wasn't generally sold. Household goods from western Europe were sold via a Rosenberg Office agency; in Poland they were sold locally to Polish neighbours by the civil administration. Properties were expropriated by local trustees or the local authorities who then rented them out, eg in the occupied Soviet Union 'Jewish flats' were being rented out by town authorities and used to offset administration costs, while in Poland this was the responsibility of the Haupttreuhandstelle Ost. Cash went into bank accounts.

Gold, jewellery and foreign currency went to the Reichsbank, but in some rare cases the gold was used locally. Many kilograms of Jewish gold from Salonika was used in occupied Greece to help stabilise the drachma in 1943 during the hyperinflation there. The niceties varied depending on the status of the territory - the Nazis were nothing if not inconsistent in how they oversaw occupied Europe.

Bank accounts were liquidated within the relevant local financial system and the monies credited to other accounts. Businesses were taken over by the HTO in Poland or 'aryanised' elsewhere, most being liquidated. Stocks, shares and financial instruments were taken over where relevant by financial authorities and disposed of accordingly. Indeed large numbers of formerly Jewish owned stocks and shares were traded in the Netherlands during the war.

Again, this is a bit vague on the income side, the only thing you can pay into a bank account is cash.

No, this bank account also took in gold and jewellery for safe-keeping; it seems that when this was sold i.e. valued properly the money was credited back to the same account. Sonderkonto 12 300 was not simply the bank account of Sonderkommando Kulmhof but also cleared through many other costs and gains of the Holocaust in the Warthegau. It helped finance the clothing sorting depot at Pabianice and interacted with parallel sorting operations inside the Lodz ghetto, which then disbursed used clothing w/o payment.

As for quicklime, in a war with so many victims, civilian and military, there would be a huge demand for it. It doesn't look good though, admittedly.

13 tons in a single delivery in June 1942? To a camp which received at most 145,000 deportees in this phase, and then only reaching the final total in September 1942? Which was located very close to the ghettos of the Warthegau and received no long-range transports? Having received multiple shipments earlier than June 1942?

I need hardly add that there are quite a few other documents relating to Chelmno, including a blatantly explicit document stating baldly that 97,000 had been gassed in the gas vans used there. Deniers say that is a forgery, but the arguments are feeble, and are rendered even more feeble when one finds that the same site received masses and masses of quicklime, as proven by an entirely separate set of files.

It is noteworthy, though the massacre was preceded by a military advance, so ammunition might need to be replenished in any case.

The movements of the relevant police formations are crystal clear from almost daily reports in this phase, as are their operations. HSSPF Russland-Sued wasn't near the front and wasn't fighting at the front. It also wasn't having to cope with large-scale antipartisan operations which might have required large ammunition deliveries, because there was much less such activity in Ukraine than elsewhere, and because we know where the units were.

The deliveries of ammunition arrived immediately before it is known that e.g. two battalions took part in a 'blocking action' in Kiev, which is known from RSHA reports to be Babi Yar. That is already 3 separate German sources, and there are many others since the Wehrmacht also reported on the action separately. As with Chelmno, there is no way to advance a convincing forgery argument which can account for all the pieces of documentary evidence. The ammunition delivery is recorded in an entirely separate set of files (of the Generalquartiermeister) to the local Wehrmacht records of the 454th Security Division which talk about the action, never mind records of the 113th Infantry Division whose engineer battalion blew up the sides of the ravine to cover over the mass grave. The RSHA and Police reports are in separate files too.

It's a fair certainty that Mattogno will not think to look for the discussion of these sources in the publications which have mentioned them, because he has hitherto shown zero awareness of the literature on Wehrmacht-SS cooperation during Barbarossa, even though that literature is absolutely enormous.

I agree that the different pieces of evidence need to be put together, though my experience is that when you try to go beyond the evidence it is easy to make mistakes.

All historians have to infer from evidence and use abductive reasoning to arrive at conclusions. You are trying the exact same procedure of inferring - "ammunition delivery, must have been near the front" - but forgot to take into account where the units were in relation to the front. So in the process of abduction, that possible inference can be ruled out completely.

The fact that we have other sources stating baldly what actually happened in Babi Yar needs to be remembered. A delivery of ammunition the day before we know Babi Yar began would most logically be for the Babi Yar action. One cannot pretend the other sources don't exist or assume they were forged and then invent a fanciful explanation for why so much ammunition was delivered.
 
And the relevance of a has-been French politician to your accusations, is ...?

... that coming from a philosophically articulate culture, his remark illuminates the relations between politics and education. Perhaps I could have clarified that.

One notes that you do not bother to even try to support this...

... until the following sentence.


What makes this Mr Ehrenberg's mistake?

I may have misrepresented or overstated Ehrenburg's role in the Soviets' arriving at the 4 million death toll for Auschwitz, on the assumption that this originated in his Black Book. I withdraw the statement.


And no as a matter of fact it is a relatively minor detail, given that the bad methodology was known from the beginning and so the figure discounted by those educational standards you so desperately want to be thought of as propaganda.

In fact I conceded the point about propaganda and education. What you say above actually supports what I initially said, as it suggests that the numbers of victims on the original plaques at Auschwitz were known to be false "from the beginning".


You mean changes were made after the blueprints were drawn up?

The rest of this [us?] see what this means to your appeal to those blueprints' authority, even if you can't -- or pretend that you can't.

There is a confusion here, which Faurrisson goes some way to resolve in the talk I linked to. There was (a) an initial plan (not strictly a blueprint) for a morgue and adjoining crematoria. In July 1943 there was then (b) a second plan altering the initial structure to an air raid shelter. Finally, after the war there was (c) a third plan altering the building to its current structure. If we assume that the building was used as a homicidal gas chamber, the question is whether this was during its first phase as a nominal morgue, during or after its second phase as a nominal air raid shelter, or in some other way not evidenced by the original plans. I'm not sure if this has been resolved by those who think it was a homicidal gas chamber. As you say later, I'm not as up on the literature as I should be. Martin Gilbert does not seem to mention the individual Kremas in his 959 page Holocaust (1985).


You can, of course, *cite* this standard?

I have no specific information on the entrance door(s) during the air raid shelter phase, so should withdraw that sentence too.


Ignoring the teeny tiny fact that morgues do not "dispose of bodies for hygienic reasons"...

I should have said in the crematoria ovens adjoining the morgue.


Then you will have no problem citing a real historian advancing this theory [that Krema I was initially a morgue].

A standard source cites J-C Pressac to this effect:
"The first gas chamber, that was used at the Auschwitz-Birkenau complex, was in a room that was being used as a morgue in Krema I, the crematorium in the main camp. [...] Jews were gassed in Krema I only during a six-week period in 1942; the rest of the time, it was used for gassing Soviet Prisoners of War. According to Jean-Claude Pressac, who wrote a book entitled "Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers," there was a total of approximately 10,000 people gassed in Krema I, which had a capacity of 600 to 800 persons for each gassing."​
See:
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/AuschwitzScrapbook/History/Articles/Birkenau01.html


There is no such absence, see the Rudolf Report and ignore his lies about what the traces someone else who also had no expertise found mean. And Rudolf? Isn't he the one who, when confronted with his lies, was forced to the admission that "chemistry is not the science which can rigorously disprove the Holocaust?" Or are you referring the the Rudolf who cites Herr Gauss in support of his crap -- while not disclosing that Gauss is a pen name for (wait for it)
Germar Rudolf.
Or maybe it's the Rudolf who was canned after trying to lean on his internship at the Plank Institute to lend an air of gravitas to the whole affair?
I suppose he / they are all you have. Sad, really...

The findings of the Rudolf Report seem plain enough, though obviously I cannot tell truth from lies on internal evidence alone unless there is an inconsistency. His use of pen names is juvenile, though you have to bear in mind that his opinions are illegal in Germany.


At what concentration does HCn become a fire risk, and at what concentration does it become lethal to mammals?

And you can, of course, demonstrate that "white hot" is applicable to ambient air in the room next to a crematorium?

The US National institute for Occupational Safety and Health gives the following figures:
"Hydrogen cyanide gas mixes well with air, and explosive mixtures are easily formed. [...] Explosive potential is severe when hydrogen cyanide is exposed to heat or flame".​
It gives the following concentrations:
"lower explosive (flammable) limit in air (LEL), 5.6%; upper explosive (flammable) limit in air (UEL), 40%."​
However, it is lethal at much lower concentrations. A National research Council sub-committee says
"exposure to airborne concentrations of HCN at 180 to 270 ppm
were fatal, usually within several minutes, and a concentration of 135 ppm
was fatal after 30 min. The average fatal concentration for humans was estimated at 546 ppm for 10 min."

This latter is 0.0055%. However, according to the story, there was no control of the level of gas in the supposed gas chamber as the pellets were simply poured in and temperature was variable. Leuchter states that the concentration near the pellets would be close to 100%. There is plainly a danger to workers in the crematoria and adjacent buildings given the toxicity.


[There is?] Nothing supporting your insistence that blueprints which you acknowledge do not indicate the use(s) to which this was at some point put, are the be-all and end-all of the uses of a given room.

To start, I refer you to the Krakow Institute study, done with appropriate methodology including the use of proper control samples, which show that Krema II - V were exposed to concentrations of HCn far in excess of what can be documented as having occurred -- how did you guys put it? "once, long ago..."

You now refer to Kremas II to V, whereas we were talking about Krema I. I wonder how we could know that Kremas II to V were "exposed to concentrations of HCn far in excess of what can be documented as having occurred"? That just sounds incoherent.

Do you mean the 1990 Institute of Forensic Research of Krakow study by Prof. Jan Sehn that states:
"Of the samples taken from crematories 1, 2, 3, and 5, only sample number 15 showed almost indetectably small traces of cyanide compounds (6 micrograms per 100 grams of wall plaster). This sample was taken from a column that stands in the middle of the gas chamber of crematory [building] 2 in Birkenau."​
or some other study?


Silly me, expecting that if you are posting "propaganda" and citing liars to support your cause that you had, you know, read the "opposing books" to which you referred.

The only possible response is the advice to *actually* read those books, for comprehension, and get back to us when you have more than the regurgitated lies of Jew haters to cast doubt on what is the most well-documented genocide, ever.

Yes, that is basically good advice as I'm at the limits of my knowledge (or beyond in a couple of cases, see above) and I have Nick Terry's reading list to help me. I hope there are no German haters amongst the authors he recommends. I have yet to see any of this supposed documentation first-hand, but there's always hope.
 
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