Moderated Obama birth certificate CT / SSN CT / Birther discussion

[Border Reiver]

Of all the anomalies in the COLB, it's the green checkered background selectively seen only behind the white dot objects. Since no scanner has x-ray vision, this has placed the anti-birthers in a corner from from which they cannot extricate themselves, for if the COLB is not an original scan, but a digital creation, the jig is up. Thus, leave it to Mr. Expert to dig into his magic bag of techno-babble to come up with more Orwellian malarkey, but when challenged, cannot point to a single confirming reference source. Conclusion, the COLB is a fraud. Game, Set, Match.

Didn't you state earlier that declaring vicotry was a sign of a weak argument?

I will ask again, why would any alleged anomalies in a scan of a document matter, when the information in that document has been certified as accurate? That is the hurdle you need to get over, and stating that a scan of the document is inaccurate is not sufficient to overcome the certification of the issuing authority.

 

[Cleon]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=808&pictureid=6632[/qimg]

What I've learned from this, after a fit of the giggles:

1. You don't recognize an actual photoshop job when you see one.
2. You don't speak a lick of Arabic.
3. You're unaware that the national languages Kenya are Swahili and English, not Arabic.

 

[Mudcat]

Of all the anomalies in the COLB, it's the green checkered background selectively seen only behind the white dot objects. Since no scanner has x-ray vision, this has placed the anti-birthers in a corner from from which they cannot extricate themselves, for if the COLB is not an original scan, but a digital creation, the jig is up. Thus, leave it to Mr. Expert to dig into his magic bag of techno-babble to come up with more Orwellian malarkey, but when challenged, cannot point to a single confirming reference source. Conclusion, the COLB is a fraud. Game, Set, Match.

I might not know much about PDF and what not, but I know enough about color theory to tell you that your objection is unwarranted and your argument is invalid... Now, do you have a legitimate concern about this digital copy that the state of Hawaii has confirmed is a copy of the original, which itself has been authenticated?

 

[JayUtah]

You still have not stated a point. Do you have one?

Your expectations are factually wrong. That was the point.

 

[JayUtah]

No. Just list one case where Mara Zebest was "laughed out of court". No more dodges.

Already provided. Explicitly ignored by you.

 

[JayUtah]

Call it what you want, but a scanner can only copy what it sees.

You're looking at one object from an optimized PDF and trying to measure it by the standards of a raw scanner image. If you had read any of what you wrote of as "technobabble" you'd know why that's wrong.

That's Common Sense, 101, Professor.

Name-calling noted. The technical argument clearly goes over your head. Your expectations are naive and unsupported, and I explained at length how.

Waiting.

I gave you my answer. You still have not addressed it.

Apparently this idea of yours that scanners can see behind objects is your own invention...

Not my idea, but expressly that of your tabloid source. Address the argument I made, not the one you are frantically trying to pin on me.

 

[JayUtah]

Of all the anomalies in the COLB, it's the green checkered background selectively seen only behind the white dot objects.

This is to be expected in optimized PDFs. Your pseudo-experts wrongly believe PDF uses the common z-buffer rendering engine. It does not. Asked and answered.

...for if the COLB is not an original scan, but a digital creation, the jig is up.

No, it isn't. As has been laboriously laid at your feet countless times, the PDF was provided for public interest only and neither has nor had any bearing on Obama's eligibility to the Presidency. That question has been settled by the courts, and the Birthers continue to obsess over an irrelevant computer file only because it's a technical subject on which they can continue to hornswoggle gullible disciples with pseudo-technical nonsense that they know won't pass for evidence under any sort of test.

Thus, leave it to Mr. Expert to dig into his magic bag of techno-babble...

If you are unwilling to participate in a technical discussion, don't start one and especially don't ask for technical arguments in return.

There's a reason your "evidence" appears in a tabloid alongside Bigfoot sightings and the amazing bacon-only diet from the Bible. There's a reason it's not being debated by lawyers in courtrooms.

The reason is because your tabloid committed a basic error. I have pointed out that error. Your frantic efforts to shoehorn it into your highly ignorant notion of how scanners and computer graphics works is your own problem.

 

[JayUtah]

I will ask again, why would any alleged anomalies in a scan of a document matter, when the information in that document has been certified as accurate?

Because the Birthers have invented a new requirement that applies only to Barack Obama: that every copy made of his birth certificate must be a flawless photo-reproduction with no discernible discrepancies, regardless of the purpose for which it was made.

 

[Hans]

Gee Robert your campaign to rid the world of an uppity mulatto isn't going very well.

How do you account for that?

 

[JayUtah]

I note that in his latest series of replies, Robert has been studiously dodging the fact that he proffered a clearly Photoshopped image as "proof".

Oh yes, his own performance in photographic analysis and spatial reasoning is consistently dismal, and bears on his ability to determine whether others are doing so at an expert level as he claims from time to time. He is unable to test for himself pertinent claims to expertise. Hence his testimony on who is or is not an expert is irrelevant.

 

[KDLarsen]

Oh dear, look at that, it's Hawaii once again certifying that the info on the birth certificate released by President Obama is true and correct:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/106576604/2012-09-14-KS-SoS-Kobach-Letter-to-Onaka-and-Response

 

[Regnad Kcin]

Racism. Simple racism.

I believe I addressed this earlier (though don't have the time to locate the post).

Insofar as there is no shortage of minorities populating the Republican party, and Mr. Herman Cain was for a time a leading candidate for the presidency, "simple racism" does not get my vote. What does is partisanship.

Find or create a weakness in your opponent and dwell on it relentlessly in order to disempower him/her. The birth certificate nonsense has the added appeal of also casting a question of deligitimacy with regard to the Constitution.

Racism? For some, yes. But no more than Hillary Clinton's gender would've been an issue rather than her party affiliation.

 

[JayUtah]

Not all Republicans are Birthers either. While we have evidence that some Birthers are not very likely to be racially motivated, we also have evidence that some Birthers clearly are, and further that they are vocally at the center of the present Birther movement.

Very little if any of the Birther arguments are overtly racist. However one must seek to understand what motivates such a movement that has no viable legal basis and no credible factual case. In that case we look to hidden factors such as partisanship and (in some documentable cases) racism.

Nevertheless it would be wrong to accuse racism solely on the basis of Birther belief.

 

[davefoc]

I believe I addressed this earlier (though don't have the time to locate the post).

Insofar as there is no shortage of minorities populating the Republican party, and Mr. Herman Cain was for a time a leading candidate for the presidency, "simple racism" does not get my vote. What does is partisanship.

Find or create a weakness in your opponent and dwell on it relentlessly in order to disempower him/her. The birth certificate nonsense has the added appeal of also casting a question of deligitimacy with regard to the Constitution.

Racism? For some, yes. But no more than Hillary Clinton's gender would've been an issue rather than her party affiliation.

I also responded to this earlier and I agree with what Regnad Kcin has to say here about that. There are a lot of factors driving this particular conspiracy theory and racism definitely plays a role but to rule out routine hyper partisanship, religious bigotry and the normal set of oddities that drive all conspiracy theories very significantly overestimates the effect of race in my opinion.

One test of the role that racism plays here is to look at the Clinton-Lewinsky scandal. There is no doubt that if Clinton had been black the same people here that are seeing racism has the dominant issue would have seen the principal drivers for the Clinton scandal as racism. Political attacks don't need racism as drivers and conspiracy theories don't need anything as drivers beyond some loons who develop unfalsifiable ideas based on what they think is their own unique capability to discern a truth not apparent to the vast majority of people.

 

[Travis]

Have we ever established why anything beyond the original COLB was even necessary?

I have yet to hear any Birther articulate a reason why that original one was not legally sufficient.

 

[KDLarsen]

Have we ever established why anything beyond the original COLB was even necessary?

I have yet to hear any Birther articulate a reason why that original one was not legally sufficient.

IIRC one of the claims surrounding the COLB was the lack of a stamp on the digital version. The pictures that FactCheck.org took showed it quite clearly, but they were handwaved away by the birthers, by claiming that since FactCheck.org is run by the Annenberg Public Policy Center and Obama once worked with the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, they were in on it together.

So they started screeching for the LFBC, and when none was released (seeing as noone was listening to them), they all agreed that Obama probably didn't have one and that the uppity rule 10 should be removed from office and preferably lynched. Again, as noone were listening to them, it went unnoticed for a fair while, until Donald Trump realised that the ratings for his Apprentice shows were taking a nosedive, and started dropping hints that the LFBC probably didn't exist. Inexplicably, seeing this was around the time of the debt ceiling crisis, the various news channels decided that the LFBC was a big story and ran with it.

 

[TheRedWorm]

Have we ever established why anything beyond the original COLB was even necessary?

I have yet to hear any Birther articulate a reason why that original one was not legally sufficient.

Brown democrat.

 

[Straw Man]

Again, I ask why you have used the 'Welcome to Kenya' sign as evidence of BHOII's birth place as Kenya?

Why do Birthers refuse to accept the evidence of the State of Hawaii to the birth place of BHOII?

Where can I find the certificates of live birth of the last 5 Presidents and Vice Presidents?

Can you point out the technical flaws in JayUtah's and Abaddon's quite full and detailed answers with regard to PDF's?

Can you explain why, instead of an answer, once again you deliver one of these?

[qimg]https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRhYCzbaMKiZEdX47NKot7BzoP_gYexEQPuRfc26rNwHQyGWDyU[/qimg][/QUOTE]

 

[Robert Prey]

Have we ever established why anything beyond the original COLB was even necessary?

I have yet to hear any Birther articulate a reason why that original one was not legally sufficient.

Because access to the original is prohibited.

 

[JayUtah]

Because access to the original is prohibited.

You dodged both his questions.