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Moderated Obama birth certificate CT / SSN CT / Birther discussion

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Digitized? Of course it's freakin' digitized! Every damned image file (or any other computer file for that matter) has to be. Unless you have an analog computers and internet in your birther world. This is your latest evidence of forgery? No one here is going to buy it.

He's just backpedaling.

Birthers: The birth certificate is forged! Look at the layers! Look at all those anomalies!

Experts: Uh, every optimized PDF looks like that. See, here are several dozen examples.

Birthers: Okay, okay, so we didn't know the PDF was optimized, whatever that means. But some of those anomalies have to be the result of forgery, right? Right!?

Hawaii: I don't know what you're all talking about. We've certified them a jillion times. Get over it already.

Birthers: Aha, so you're in on it too!

Courts: Are you serious? That's your argument? Case dismissed. :rolleyes:
 
A dozen inaccurate or unproven accusations of fraud do not add up to a single verifiable one. They can't logically be used to support the accuracy of each other.

Yup, that's why we made him examine each and every one in turn, just as a court would do. And predictably once you stop the handwaving and start the detailed examination the Birther claim falls apart in a pile of idiotic incompetence and legal ignorance. Hence the retreat to the general handwaving argument.
 
He's just backpedaling.

Birthers: The birth certificate is forged! Look at the layers! Look at all those anomalies!

Experts: Uh, every optimized PDF looks like that. See, here are several dozen examples.

Birthers: Okay, okay, so we didn't know the PDF was optimized, whatever that means. But some of those anomalies have to be the result of forgery, right? Right!?

Hawaii: I don't know what you're all talking about. We've certified them a jillion times. Get over it already.

Birthers: Aha, so you're in on it too!

Courts: Are you serious? That's your argument? Case dismissed. :rolleyes:

LOL
 
Seriously Robert, if you want replication you will need:
The exact MAC the scan was performed on.
The exact scanner used.
All of the exact software used, in matching versions.
Sample stock of the security paper.
The research to find all of those.

Alternatively, you could go ahead and play with Photoshop sliders and get whatever result you want.

Any luck printing Pantone 877? No?

How about that elusive multicoloured pixel? No?
 
Seriously Robert, if you want replication you will need:
The exact MAC the scan was performed on.
The exact scanner used.
All of the exact software used, in matching versions.
Sample stock of the security paper.
The research to find all of those.

Alternatively, you could go ahead and play with Photoshop sliders and get whatever result you want.

Keep in mind he's changing his horses faster than a Pony Express rider. At first he wanted his critics to exactly replicate the optimized PDF, right down to the number of objects. Now he wants his critics to replicate the scan of a photocopy, right down to auto color correction. Two separate requests -- none of them relevant, all of them shifting the burden of proof.

In order to replicate the PDF you'd not only have to have everything you mention above, you'd also have to place the document on the scanner bed exactly as it was originally, to within 0.0015 inch (the Nyquist sampling tolerance for a 300 dpi scan) of the original position and to an incredibly tight angular tolerance of 0.00008 degree of the original document orientation (the same Nyquist restriction over 8 inches of document extent). Then and only then will you get the same raster image from the scanner as the original worker did.

Why such tight tolerances? Because any material difference in the captured raster affects the geometric pattern matching of the PDF optimizer and will produce different objects. It also affects the skew factor, which determines which elements of the picture will require greater pixel depth to represent them. A perfectly aligned document, for example, can have its horizontal and vertical lines converted to bitmasks. A slighly askew document, without deskewing, requires greater pixel depth to accommodate antialised lines.

The stark reality of what it would take to exactly reproduce the Obama PDF in optimized form is why the Birthers get laughed out of court when the real experts show up. Real experts like me can show that (a) optimization produces a multitude of objects, which the Birthers have mistaken for "layers"; (b) the nature of any one layer is completely consistent with PDF optimization; (c) the overall distribution of image data among the objects is entirely consistent with PDF optimization; and (d) there is no forgery claim yet made on the basis of the digital image that cannot be better explained by ordinary PDF optimization.

Sure, let WND continue to dazzle their slack-jawed readers with pixels here and pixels there. Let Mara "I make pretty pictures" Zebest pretend she's got any clue when it comes to photographic analysis and document evaluation. Let that wacky sheriff pretend he knows how to run a real investigation. Pretty much everyone can see it's all just political tripe.

Any luck printing Pantone 877? No?

I'd love to see him even reliably scan Pantone 877. My guess is that he's finally gotten some practical understanding of scanner, copier, and printer color gamuts and he's hoping this whole thing will blow over without him having to demonstrate a darn thing.

How about that elusive multicoloured pixel? No?

I'm still giggling over this one.

"Pixel" is short for picture element, the smallest elementary constituent of a digital image. "Elementary" means it cannot be broken down into smaller elements that have useful properties. What are the properties of a pixel?

It has location, meaning that it has unique and deterministic coordinates belonging to the dimensionality of the image. "Elm Street and 4th Avenue" should uniquely identify a location in a city. Some other corner would have some other unique address. In digital images we define this to be the case.

It has extent, meaning that it completely and atomically represents a measurable portion along that same dimensionality. "The 400 block of Elm Street" identifies a region of the city. While the underlying reality incorporates bushes, houses, dogs, and sidewalks, the designation "400 block of Elm" contains them all. In digital images we define the pixel to be so quantized.

It has photometric value, meaning it atomically represents photometry data for that location and extent in the image. The dimensionality of the pixel value depends on the dimensionality of the underlying model. IR imaging from the sun, for example, could have a single value. CYMK production print pixels, for example, have a tuple of 4 values. However, each pixel can have only one tuple by definition. You can't have a multicolored pixel any more than you can build two houses in the same place.
 
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I'm still giggling over this one.
Colour me unsurprised. Possibly one of the most idiotic claims ever.

"Pixel" is short for picture element, the smallest elementary constituent of a digital image. "Elementary" means it cannot be broken down into smaller elements that have useful properties. What are the properties of a pixel?

It has location, meaning that it has unique and deterministic coordinates belonging to the dimensionality of the image. "Elm Street and 4th Avenue" should uniquely identify a location in a city. Some other corner would have some other unique address. In digital images we define this to be the case.
Allow me to revert to layman terms. A pixel is a dot and it has a location and a colour. There is no magic wand which can give them any other properties, there can be no multicoloured pixel. This is why Robert cannot produce one.

It has extent, meaning that it completely and atomically represents a measurable portion along that same dimensionality. "The 400 block of Elm Street" identifies a region of the city. While the underlying reality incorporates bushes, houses, dogs, and sidewalks, the designation "400 block of Elm" contains them all. In digital images we define the pixel to be so quantized.
Yeah, unless you are Robert.

It has photometric value, meaning it atomically represents photometry data for that location and extent in the image. The dimensionality of the pixel value depends on the dimensionality of the underlying model. IR imaging from the sun, for example, could have a single value. CYMK production print pixels, for example, have a tuple of 4 values. However, each pixel can have only one tuple by definition. You can have a multicolored pixel any more than you can build two houses in the same place.
And there is the bit that Robert fails to understand, atomically. A pixel is, by it's very nature, atomic. There are no subdivisions of a pixel.
 
Re: "multicolored pixels": subpixels.

It's not actually relevant to the context of Robert Prey's laughable statement, but I felt like being nitpicky. :p
 
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My spider sense is tingling.......I suspect a major fringe reset is just about to occur
 
Re: "multicolored pixels": subpixels.

It's not actually relevant to the context of Robert Prey's laughable statement, but I felt like being nitpicky. :p

And, equally nitpicky, fails the definition for location and extent. Spacially related but not collocated sensor elements are no different than temporal displacement in, say, color-wheel systems (where extent also has a time component). In these systems, location, extent, and time have to be broadened to consider subsamples as a useful pixel.

Subsampling for spatial and temporal resolution is itself a field of image processing and, in the larger sense, signal processing. But these govern the principles for how you get a pixel, not what a pixel is once you've gotten it.
 
My spider sense is tingling.......I suspect a major fringe reset is just about to occur

Yup. Robert is going to pick something else off his list of Obama transgressions and pretend that the birth-certificate discussion never occurred. Then two months from how he'll be back harping on how the certificate is forged and the PDF has layers. Obviously. After a year of watching him flounder, bob, and weave in the other threads here, it's pretty apparent how his "arguments" unfold.
 
The optimization argument is a straw man by reason of the fact that no serious birther has denied that there may well be evidence of optimization. ...
Funny thing; not denying it also includges ignoring the possibility entirely.

Well, at least now you're actually responding to Jay's technical posts, even if only a single line. Progress, I guess.

Jay said:
The stark mathematics of combinatorial complexity are not excuses. You're the one making excuses for your simplistic understanding. Unless you'd care to answer now the half dozen or so questions I asked you on the subject a month ago.

No? I'm not surprised.

"No excuse for replicating!" Jay asks, "So what's your understanding of how big that problem would be?" Robert answers: [silence]

"No excuse for Obama not authorizing people to view the paper original!" Jay asks, "So what's the legal basis in Hawaii statutes for him to make that authorization?" Robert answers: [silence]

"No excuse for opening a forgery investigation regardless of Full Faith and Credit!" Jay asks, "So what would be the legal theory for such a challenge?" Robert answers: [silence]

Do we see something fishy? You better bet we do.


...
Which would make the certified copy handed to the AP not a copy of the original document.

If I make a photocopy and I turn up the contrast, does that make it not a copy?

You're searching desperately for any kind of "gotcha". It's an optimized copy.
 
Well, at least now you're actually responding to Jay's technical posts, even if only a single line. Progress, I guess.

Not really. He knows I write stuff over his head. He'll allude to it in some statement when he thinks he can get some rhetorical (i.e., underbridge) mileage out of it. But he never responds meaningfully to it. There are just too many things out in the real world that don't fit his arguments, so he largely ignores those things.

I can remember him talking about anatomy in another thread. I wrote a comprehensive discussion showing how he was getting the wrong answer. He didn't acknowledge it until months later, by deriding its length and completeness.

You're searching desperately for any kind of "gotcha". It's an optimized copy.

Indeed, he's desperately trying to push the argument toward photographic fidelity with the original as a requirement for authenticity. This is a made-up Birther criterion; no court has agreed that this is required. In the real world we know that copies are always unfaithful to some degree, but that we tolerate that infidelity if the purpose at hand is still served.

The only way fidelity in the copy matters is if the copy is so garbled that "Hawaii" looks like "Kenya" in the print. Again, Romney's doesn't even purport to be a facsimile copy, yet strangely none of the Birthers will even comment on that.
 
He probably thinks it's a shampoo.

"I used to have dull, pixelated hair. With white spots everywhere and colors that looked different under different lights until I switched to Pantone 877! Now my hair comes out as a solid block of single color!"

Note: Some colors may not exist.

Caution: Use of Pantone 877 may result in the following side effects: Birhterism, Dunning-Kruger effect, claims of being a teacher, fondness for deli meats, single word replies, failure to understand simple technical concepts. All side effects were not minor.
 
"I used to have dull, pixelated hair. With white spots everywhere and colors that looked different under different lights until I switched to Pantone 877! Now my hair comes out as a solid block of single color!"

Note: Some colors may not exist.

Caution: Use of Pantone 877 may result in the following side effects: Birhterism, Dunning-Kruger effect, claims of being a teacher, fondness for deli meats, single word replies, failure to understand simple technical concepts. All side effects were not minor.

Spam Pastrami Tripe Baloney.

You never heard of Just For Birthers?
 
"I used to have dull, pixelated hair. With white spots everywhere and colors that looked different under different lights until I switched to Pantone 877! Now my hair comes out as a solid block of single color!"

Note: Some colors may not exist.

Caution: Use of Pantone 877 may result in the following side effects: Birhterism, Dunning-Kruger effect, claims of being a teacher, fondness for deli meats, single word replies, failure to understand simple technical concepts. All side effects were not minor.
Spam Pastrami Tripe Baloney.

You never heard of Just For Birthers?
Woo hoo we're having a blow-out party now!:dl::dl::dl:
 
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