Moderated Obama birth certificate CT / SSN CT / Birther discussion

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BazBear said:
It seems from the way you and Jay have answered me maybe I wasn't clear enough. I know there are no layers in PDF 1.3, full stop. I wondered if a document that had only one object group (what RP and the birthers seem to expect) would be an anomaly (or at least somewhat unusual) in itself. Not necessarily I now know. And thanks for all the great info and insight you've provided us :)
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And your answer is no, not anomalous in any way. Any scanner will barf out a bag of PDF, contain a grab bag of objects. Which objects go where, and which are split into what objects? That is a function of the software, and the settings applied.

For example, most scanner software allows you to scan as image, and save as PDF. This results in a PDF with a single large image object, and thats all.

Provenance is the key to the Obama PDF. What software, what hardware, what settings? Without that, one is lost.
 
BazBear said:
A question for Jay and/or Abaddon etc. . If a supposed scanned document did appear as all one group in one layer, would that be troubling as far as it's authenticity? I do understand different OSes, hardware, and software (and even different scans using the same combo) can greatly effect the output, so what I guess I'm asking is if what the birthers seem to expect to see (ie. one monolithic layer/group) would be a troubling anomaly in itself?
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No, not really. The birthers say that it's a. suspicious to have layers, and b)what's on those layers indicates the cert was faked. Except that, as we've already established, even Illustrator itself says there's just one layer with stuff on it, so a. is false. And we know B is too. Which is why Prey is so focused on "pounding on the table", to use his own analogy; desperately trying to discount Jay's points instead of discussing them.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
I don't think they misinterpret "full faith and credit" Tehy think that the Officials in Hawaii ar corrupt and the Birth Certificates they are certifying are deliberate fakes and the conspirators are hiding behind "full faith and credit".
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They have to destroy the constitution to save it.
 
JayUtah said:
No. It would simply mean that it's a raw scan without optimization. If the file were 20 megabytes in size, it could easily optimize down to 1-2 megabytes, so I'd question the wisdom of the preparer. But the structure would not lead me to suspect fraud.
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And of course it wouldn't be evidence of its authenticity, either. If it had been presented as a 20 megabyte file, there would still be something for a birther to be suspicious of.
 
abaddon said:
Robert,the PDF 1.3 Language Reference Manual is here.

Straight from Adobe.

Guess how many times the word "layer" appears throughout the entire 696 pages.

I will spare you the effort. Precisely 2. Once in the preface, referring to PDF being a structure layered over postscript (if you want I will school you on postscript as well), and secondly in reference to Photoshop creating layers from a PDF source file.

Now, of course, anyone here can now download the LRM, and because it is text, do a search for the word "layer". Who will be found to be correct? You? Or Jay and I?
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The Obama PDF -- one PDF layer, nine sub-layers created in another program to make up that one layer. Obviously.
 
JayUtah said:
Sheer denial. I've done the same thing. You have multiple people who have demonstrated -- not just theorized, but demonstrated -- that your expectations are wrong and that the Obama PDF is fully consistent with an optimized PDF scan.
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Then replicate it. Exactly.
 
Mojo said:
Either two organisations have independently produced faked documents containing exactly the same information in exactly the same format, or the differing colours are a result of something in the processes by which they reproduced the original document.

What would William of Ockham do?
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Conclude that both are obvious fakes.
 
abaddon said:
And see a list of objects Robert, not layers.

Those are jpeg files Robert. If you can find the AP and WH pdf files, and I happen to be bored, I might take a look, but I am pretty sure I know what the answer will be.

Slurs noted.
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They are jpegs of what is claimed to be originals -- the AP an alleged certified copy of the original, the WH PDF an alleged scan of the original. One backgournd blue, the other a checkered tiled green. Just try to replicate that, Mr. Expert, and report back.
 
Robert Prey said:
They are jpegs of what is claimed to be originals -- the AP an alleged certified copy of the original, the WH PDF an alleged scan of the original. One backgournd blue, the other a checkered tiled green. Just try to replicate that, Mr. Expert, and report back.
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Just to be clear: is that WH pdf really supposed to be a scan of the original? Or rather of a copy made on safety paper? Because, you know, there is a little difference...
And the WH pdf suggests to me it is a copy on safety paper. While that other copy was made on normal paper.
Mind supplying where either thing suggests it is a fake?
 
Robert Prey said:


They are jpegs of what is claimed to be originals -- the AP an alleged certified copy of the original, the WH PDF an alleged scan of the original. One backgournd blue, the other a checkered tiled green. Just try to replicate that, Mr. Expert, and report back.
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Provenance, Robert, provenance.

How were those jpegs derived. What colour space was used? What compression settings were used? What computer was used? And so forth.

Unless you can provide the provenance, those are as meaningful as the pink one I provided, i.e. not at all.
 
Robert Prey said:
....Mr. Expert, and report back.
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Cutsy name calling...still??


Oh, I'm reporting back that Obama is still an Hawaiian native, and he is still president, and he will be re-elected in November.


I know that's not what you "want", but it's what you are going to get. :D
 
Robert Prey said:
Conclude that both are obvious fakes.
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After a few lessons on what a computer is William of Occam would likely say two scans of the same document.

As the source document has been verified correct by the issuing authority, this whole PDF business is irrelevant.

Unless you have some proof that the verification by the Hawaian State Government is fraudulent there is no point in carrying on with this.
 
Border Reiver said:
After a few lessons on what a computer is William of Occam would likely say two scans of the same document.

As the source document has been verified correct by the issuing authority, this whole PDF business is irrelevant.

Unless you have some proof that the verification by the Hawaian State Government is fraudulent there is no point in carrying on with this.
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This has been pointed out by multiple posters multiple times, and he still returns to the "fraudulent" PDF. It's almost as if he doesn't want to talk about any of the rest of the stuff that has also been soundly debunked.
 
And the PDF stuff has been comppeltly debunked too

RP like the rest of the birthers has no evidence
 
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