Moderated Obama birth certificate CT / SSN CT / Birther discussion

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Robert,the PDF 1.3 Language Reference Manual is here.

Straight from Adobe.

Guess how many times the word "layer" appears throughout the entire 696 pages.

I will spare you the effort. Precisely 2. Once in the preface, referring to PDF being a structure layered over postscript (if you want I will school you on postscript as well), and secondly in reference to Photoshop creating layers from a PDF source file.

Now, of course, anyone here can now download the LRM, and because it is text, do a search for the word "layer". Who will be found to be correct? You? Or Jay and I?
 
Only one layer, Robert.
The rest of us didn't have to download the 30-day free trial of Illustrator, because we own it and have used it and several other major Adobe products for years now. We're very familiar with how they work, and the difference between layers and objects.
And still use those products. I can trace my Photoshop history all the way back to Photoshop 3, Illustrator to 6 and Acrobat pretty much to 1. Gotta be a quarter century. Still have most of the install media and licences.

Of course anyone does do this will see something Robet desperately doesn't want to have to answer: The fact that that "1 Layer" never goes away, no matter how much you click and click and click. One layer, with 9 objects. Produced by optimization, just as I, Abaddon, and countless others have done. And created by the importation process, necessary for translating PDF data into the illustrator data model.
A critical point Robert persists in missing. PDF is a page description language, interpreted at runtime, according to the whims of the interpreting software.

This is not trivial.

You mean like the people who use Illustrator to inspect PDF files, instead of the Adobe product specifically designed for that task? You mean the people who claimed there should be only one pixel map in the image, and then had to recant when the entire graphics design industry laughed at them? You mean the people who couldn't even make a credible case in court even when the opposing counsel stayed home that day?
I paraphrase but someone wrote earlier, "You mean the ones who lost a court case against an empty chair?"

BTW the question mark belongs inside the quote, LOL.

Or maybe you should trust the people who can spontaneously discuss the technology in detail, who have demonstrated the procedures they talk about, and who managed to befuddle their ignorant critics into single-word evasive answers.
At this point, I think he is recycling arguments, in the vain hope that we will have forgotten what he wrote, and what we know.
 
Yep he is recycling I would suspect he'll just keep doing that forever
 
Anyone can easily prove that the layers betrayed by Illustrator show intelligent manipulation of image and data, such as one layer entirely the background, another mostly printed text, another dates, another signatures, registrar stamps, etc.

This claim always made me laugh, because when you actually look at the objects in question and try to interpret them as productive Photoshop layers, you can't help thinking what sort of incompetent moron of an artist would try to use Photoshop that way. Or even how anyone could, without going nuts.

No, the "layers" don't make any sense as a composed document in Photoshop. But the Birther claim is that the PDF exists as several different objects because the hypothetical artist composed the Ps layers that way and then consciously set up the PDF exporter to preserve those layers as separate objects. (Flattening is the default in most Ps versions.) Supposedly only the Birther pseudo-experts were smart enough to be able to see this allegedly bogus representation for what it was.

...virtually impossible to replicate with any compression program

Or exactly what you'd expect, as we shall see.

It's time we examined these nine objects and try to determine what they are and why they're there.

"One layer entirely the background" is a total lie. The object in question is the green safety paper, and the ruling on the form, and the signatures, and random letters from the typewritten text -- such as the "R" in "BARACK" but not any of the other letters. In other words, a bunch of apparently unrelated elements.

An artist is going to create a layer for the crosshatched safety paper, a separate layer for the line art, and then another layer or layers for the signatures. He's also going to add an adjustment layer with a gradient mask to create the part of the image where the book gutter margin is darker.

Further, the contents of other objects have been "knocked out" of this background object so they are visible as little white outlines. This is necessary for how the PDF rendering engine works, but it is completely unwarranted in Ps. The Ps artist knows that higher layers will simply obscure the background according to the blend-mode settings.

The next object is most of the text and some of the deep black graphic elements like arrows for the signature boxes. Keep in mind that a fair amount of other text appears in the "background-only" object. These elements are jagged and stark because the object is a bit mask. It can represent only the presence or absence of the graphics-state. During the importation, Ai assumes it will be black and converts it as such.

Why logically-related text in two different objects? Makes no sense in Ps, but it makes absolutely perfect sense in PDF optimization. PDF optimizers perform a high-pass filtration of the original image to detect where edges might occur, and where stark transitions from one color to another might be replaced by transitions that lie on pixel boundaries. This allows a portion of the graphic to replaced by a bitmap, which takes up much less space.

However, in the original image the "R" in BARACK was too fuzzy to trigger the high-pass filter. As such it got left as part of the "deep" pixel map so that the fuzzy edge could be accurately rendered using greater image depth. The deep image requires lots of bits per pixel so that it can accurately reproduce true graphical elements as well as "black" elements that nevertheless require some gray scale on their edges to aid interpretation. For example, long thin lines that don't precisely align to the raster, if rendered in 1-bit bitmask-type graphics, are unacceptably jaggy.

It is trivially easy to find and create examples of overly jagged items in optimized PDFs. In the magazine page I scanned and optimized, one photo was of the Ps Brushes palette. The optimizer extracted the hard-edged brushes and replaced them with a bit mask, while leaving the soft-edged brushes alone!

Throughout the document we see that the criteria for keeping an object on the deep background rather than the shallow text object is the requirement that the object in the original image have some grayscale properties, not its logical function in the purported Ps forgery.

Optimizer: 1
Artist: 0

The next two objects are the registrar's signature and the date under the seal, respectively. Again, these are bitmaps. But why weren't they included with the other line-art and text objects? Because they're geographically far removed from the rest of it.

In Ps the layers are the same dimension and depth. Hence you don't gain anything in terms of convenience or space by having separate layers for content that is geographically separate but logically and graphically related.

But in PDFs, image objects are no bigger than they need to be to express the element in question. Hence you gain considerable space savings by taking an image composed of geographically clustered elements, and breaking each element up into its own image. You don't have to store the empty space that way.

Optimizer: 2
Artist: 0

The next three objects are two date stamps and the first three letters of the word "None" -- i.e., omitting the "e" which is contained on the principal text and graphics layer.

The astute viewer will notice that while these too are 1-bit images, they are not full black. They are, in fact, a dark gray. The bitmap-conversion algorithm says, "Can this region be represented by a single color?" In most cases that color is black. Here the color is dark gray because while the edge-detection algorithm found an edge, and while the color-depth simplifier found a single color, it was not the same color that had been used in the other single-bit image. Hence it can't be included with it, because the graphics-state color is different for that bit mask than for the other bitmap objects. Before rendering these bitmasks, the graphics state must be changed to the new color, so they have to be separate rasters.

And again because all the bitmask objects of this color are far separated, they are separate image objects, not all on the same layer.

In Ps a layer can contain any color compatible with the overall image's color model. There is no justification (and considerable disadvantage) to putting different colored objects necessarily on a different layer. But this is exactly how the optimizer renders single-color image elements using the minimum data storage.

Optimizer: 3
Artist: 0

The last two objects are alterations to the paper, one the imprint of the registrar's stamp and the other a set of discolorations at the top edge of he paper.

To understand why these are there, you need to understand the difference between component images and indexed images. Component images store each pixel as a tuple of the numbers that express the components of the pixel's desired color in the color model -- HSL, CYMK, RBG, YUV, etc. You may be familiar with component expressions of color such as #0080ff, which represents RGB values for a color as six hexadecimal digits, two digits for each component. 00 means fully off, 0xff (255 in decimal) means full intensity, with lesser intensities represented by the intervening numbers.

In an indexed image, you predetermine a palette of colors you're going to use, and assign each a sequential number. The value stored for each pixel is the number, the index into that predetermined color table, which is a much smaller number than representing the pixel component values directly. The drawback is that your image must be composed only of the colors you've selected.

Converting a component image to an indexed image requires color-space quantization, that is, reducing the number of colors needed to visually represent an image. In virtually every case, you have to approximate the color in the source image using the closest entry in the color table. The "error" between that entry color and the actual color is accumulated and considered when deciding the colors of neighboring pixels. Since pixels are very small, the overall impression will be of roughly the correct colors. Artifacts of such a quantization and error-diffusion process appear all over the background object in the Obama PDF.

Of course we can simply look in the raw PDF data structures to see that the image has been quantized and indexed. But we can confirm that this process has taken place by magnifying the image. The green safety pattern contains "speckles" of error-diffused pixels in the white spaces. The pattern has been approximated in the PDF by using the minimal number of green colors.

8-bit quantization produces very compact image storage and allows up to 256 colors. You can choose what those colors are, but once chosen you are limited to them. How to choose? Well, by histographic analysis of the source image. This is a sophisticated statistical process, but the result is to determine the set of 256 colors that will best represent all the colors in the image, using appropriate error diffusion.

Here a clever thing has happened. The optimizer has realized that if it eliminates certain regions of the background image that contain outlying pixel data, it can recover the colors it would need to represent them and add them to the greens and grays it needs to represent the bulk of the background and fuzzy line art. And since those outlyers are generally single-color aberrations, they fall under the auspices of changing the graphic state and applying a bit mask.

So here the quantization problem has been simplified by removing slightly outlying data and making it its own simplified object. No reason to do that in Ps since minor color and pattern variations -- especially to an established pattern, can happily live in a single Ps layer.

Optimizer: 4
Artist: 0

So the notion that an optimizer "wouldn't produce" this pattern of objects is simply as naive as it can be. This is exactly the kind of way an optimizer would carve up a raw scan. The notion that these are the accidentally revealed layers of some Ps artist tasked with creating the forgery makes no sense whatsoever.
 
One thing I noted on another forum is that their seems to be two types of birthers; one group thinks the 'conspiracy' of Obama birth was done on or about the time he was born and another group says it was done after it was decided by the evil powers to be that he would become president, ie sometime between college and his run for office.

So Robert which story line do you follow?

Baloney.

Because it is one layer, until you click the expand tab. Obviously.

Ah, so they're Schrodinger's layers.

Anyone can easily prove that the layers betrayed by Illustrator
False premise.

show intelligent manipulation of image and data, such as one layer entirely the background, another mostly printed text, another dates, another signatures, registrar stamps, etc., virtually impossible to replicate with any compression program, analogous to six monkeys randomly typing the entire works of Shakespeare by accident.
But comparable result can and easily have been obtained by people using the same software and similar documents. In this thread, even.

And why would the conspirators do "mostly" a certain type on each "layer", even assuming the claim is true? Why not put all elements of a given type on a designated layer? Or make even more layers with subgroups for each type?

Anyone can obtain a free copy of Illustrator through adobe for a 30 day trial, obtain the Obama PDF version still floating around the net, load it in Illustrator and open up the layers pallet, and click the expand arrow. Then click and un-click the button on the left of each layer to reveal what is on each layer. Yes, I've done it, and I would recommend that anyone who hasn't should. Don't accept what any self-proclaimed "expert" claims is dogma.
Yet when people in this thread do precisely that, and show that Illustrator still says "1 layer" whether expanded or no, you ignore them.

You liar.

Here's another nice little challenge for you and your fellow "expert" Abaddon:

Will you affirm that that the Obama PDF is in fact genuine and do it with proof? No. You will not, because as you have already admitted by your silence on the question, you just don't know. Admit it, and we can go from there.
Jay, at least, has said yes, and he has proven it with several pages worth of technical explanations which you have refused to address in any depth whatsoever. And now you deign to notice Abaddon, when you wouldn't even acknowledge the existence of his technical explanations earlier.

Jay Utah and Abaddon are just like defendant attorneys in a murder case. They know very well their client is guilty, so their only course is to attack the evidence and the expert witnesses of the prosecution. Attack, attack, attack. And when all else fails, pound the table. But as to evidence for their side, they have none.

Is that why you keep handwaving explanations and ignoring evidence posted, including in the very post I'm responding to? I mean, you don't even pretend to respond to the rest of Jay's post. Anyone can click the little arrow and see.

You are now not only contradicting Jay, not only misinterpreting Adobe, you are now ignoring what Illustrator itself says. You think we haven't noticed your argument consists almost entirely of hand-waving, making crap up, and personal attacks?
 
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He's hoping we haven't.

He's also hoping that he doesn't need to address the Hawaiian confirmation that the information is correct. Then he'll need to explain why "full faith and credit" doesn't apply here, or his alleged proof of fraud.
 
Every time he needs a new rationalization the number of involved people rises. Odd how none of them came forward.
 
A question for Jay and/or Abaddon etc. . If a supposed scanned document did appear as all one group in one layer, would that be troubling as far as it's authenticity? I do understand different OSes, hardware, and software (and even different scans using the same combo) can greatly effect the output, so what I guess I'm asking is if what the birthers seem to expect to see (ie. one monolithic layer/group) would be a troubling anomaly in itself?
 
People. Just ignore him. He isn't trying to learn, he isn't really trying to argue. He is trolling. How many pages have been wasted explaining that objects and layers are different. It is simply a waste of time to mess with this anymore. Honestly we have already covered all this earlier in the thread. Hell, I uploaded examples of the "anamolies" with my own COLB. Honestly this thread is better when the adults discuss the birther cases, and not waste time on obvious trolls who are only interested in keeping an argument going by refusing to acknowledge anything and everything.
 
If a supposed scanned document did appear as all one group in one layer, would that be troubling as far as it's authenticity?

No, not by that fact alone. Romney's is that way, for example, But his is a facsimile encoded grayscale copy, which is already pretty compact. It's a fax-to-PDF document. But if I got a scanned PDF with only the original scanned image, I wouldn't have any cause by that fact to doubt its authenticity.

if what the birthers seem to expect to see (ie. one monolithic layer/group) would be a troubling anomaly in itself?

No. It would simply mean that it's a raw scan without optimization. If the file were 20 megabytes in size, it could easily optimize down to 1-2 megabytes, so I'd question the wisdom of the preparer. But the structure would not lead me to suspect fraud.

Multi-object PDFs are the norm. It's how the language was designed. All we're doing is disputing the Birther misconception that since the PDF contains several objects, this is a sign of fraud. Single-object PDFs are valid. Multiple-object PDFs are just as valid. Mara Zebest, in her extreme ignorance, has invented a fanciful tale for how the PDF arrived with multiple objects, because she doesn't know how PDFs normally work. There is no evidence to support her claim; it just seems reasonably plausible to people like Robert who want that pseudo-intellectual veneer of assurance over what is nothing more than a rabid political attack.
 
People. Just ignore him. He isn't trying to learn, he isn't really trying to argue. He is trolling. How many pages have been wasted explaining that objects and layers are different. It is simply a waste of time to mess with this anymore. Honestly we have already covered all this earlier in the thread. Hell, I uploaded examples of the "anamolies" with my own COLB. Honestly this thread is better when the adults discuss the birther cases, and not waste time on obvious trolls who are only interested in keeping an argument going by refusing to acknowledge anything and everything.

I think most of us understand this, but I learn a lot from people debunking his nonsense. It may be futile in regard to changing Robert's mind (or at least his apparent rolling tactics), but I think it's still quite educational for some of us.
 
A question for Jay and/or Abaddon etc. . If a supposed scanned document did appear as all one group in one layer, would that be troubling as far as it's authenticity? I do understand different OSes, hardware, and software (and even different scans using the same combo) can greatly effect the output, so what I guess I'm asking is if what the birthers seem to expect to see (ie. one monolithic layer/group) would be a troubling anomaly in itself?

I cannot speak to what is or is not in birthers heads.

That said, whatever may be in there, if anything, bears no relation to the facts.

The simple fact of the matter is that the Obama BC is a PDF, composed of objects. No layers, no edits, no nothing. PDF 1.3 does not support layers, at all.

Suggesting that it does is tantamount to putting the hat with the flag on.
 
Multi-object PDFs are the norm. It's how the language was designed. All we're doing is disputing the Birther misconception that since the PDF contains several objects, this is a sign of fraud. Single-object PDFs are valid. Multiple-object PDFs are just as valid. Mara Zebest, in her extreme ignorance, has invented a fanciful tale for how the PDF arrived with multiple objects, because she doesn't know how PDFs normally work. There is no evidence to support her claim; it just seems reasonably plausible to people like Robert who want that pseudo-intellectual veneer of assurance over what is nothing more than a rabid political attack.
Thanks Jay. I did and do understand what you were disputing and why. In my own limited research I didn't find a PDF from a scanned document that was not more than one object group. Hence my question, and thanks again for sharing your knowledge with us :)
 
Jay thank you for educating me about PDFS and the various Adobe products.

Mr Prey where is your demand that Mitt Romney and Joe Arapio prove their birth certifactes are not fakes?
 
I cannot speak to what is or is not in birthers heads.

That said, whatever may be in there, if anything, bears no relation to the facts.

The simple fact of the matter is that the Obama BC is a PDF, composed of objects. No layers, no edits, no nothing. PDF 1.3 does not support layers, at all.

Suggesting that it does is tantamount to putting the hat with the flag on.
It seems from the way you and Jay have answered me maybe I wasn't clear enough. I know there are no layers in PDF 1.3, full stop. I wondered if a document that had only one object group (what RP and the birthers seem to expect) would be an anomaly (or at least somewhat unusual) in itself. Not necessarily I now know. And thanks for all the great info and insight you've provided us :)
 
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