Moderated Obama birth certificate CT / SSN CT / Birther discussion

[000063]

Jay,

I've really appreciated your responses. I'm curious though, would you agree that the objects in question, in Illustrator, behave somewhat like layers. You can turn them off and on. I'm assuming you could change their order. So there is some basis for an amateur to think they are the equivalent, right?...

Yep. But when said amateur has had the truth explained to them about a dozen times, and they just stick their fingers in their ears, then they have no excuse.

 

[abaddon]

I think you misunderstand my point (emphasis on "think").

nothing wrong with a valid question.

My point was that you can turn on and of the objects by selecting and deselecting them (the objects and not the layers) in the layers palatte. That behavior is very similar to the layers function, right? I'm not adept at illustrator but I would be hard pressed to tell you what the difference is from a UI standpoint or even what the functional differences would be. Conceded that could be in part to my inexperience with Illustrator and perhaps Illustrator lets you fundamentally work with layers in a way it won't let you work with objects. Sorry if you have gone over that and I missed your explanation. I've not read every post.

This goes all the way back to my earlier question. Do you know what the consequence of PDF being an interpreted language really is?
Acrobat interprets it as it is, Illustrator interprets it how it likes to, Photoshop interprets it as a bitmap, Ghostscript? best not mentioned.

The format is the format. How various interpreters deal with the format is a very different thing.

Let me make certain that you understand that I'm not trying to pick a fight or support RP at all. He's been out of gas for a long time.

And I understand that, so no worries there.

ETA: Please ignore my last question. I missed this. Sorry. I'm probably making much more of this than is warranted. I'm just not experienced enough.

Not a problem. It is as simple as this. Layers do not exist in PDF 1.3.
Nill, null, nada, rien du tout, faic, tada. You may need to look up the last 2. They are gaelic.

Once that is known, or claimed, then the evidence is required. Do you really want to spend the time analysing the PDF LRM? I have. Not a casual read, but the data is there. Oddly, it's not as hard as one might imagine.

Failing that, I really have no issue answering a techy question or two. I taught for five years back in the day. It's kinda indellible.

 

[Robert Prey]

Originally Posted by Robert Prey
...would it not be accurate to say that "groups" or "objects'" reside on layers????

Still highly inaccurate, for the reasons elaborated.

Well Dagnabbit, here's that same ole pseudo-expert refuting Jay Utah again:

"...even though a portion or even a whole object may reside on different document layers, Acrobat views the object as a single item for selection and editing."

From Adobe Tips and Tricks

Editing Document Layers in a PDF File

http://pdf-tips-tricks.blogspot.com/2009/03/editing-document-layers-in-pdf-file.html

 

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Robert Prey
...would it not be accurate to say that "groups" or "objects'" reside on layers????



Well Dagnabbit, here's that same ole pseudo-expert refuting Jay Utah again:

"...even though a portion or even a whole object may reside on different document layers, Acrobat views the object as a single item for selection and editing."

From Adobe Tips and Tricks

Editing Document Layers in a PDF File

http://pdf-tips-tricks.blogspot.com/2009/03/editing-document-layers-in-pdf-file.html

How nice.

See Robert, you missed the very first sentence.

Now that Acrobat 6 supports document layers

Here is your question. What PDF version does Acrobat 6 support?

There are more, but I recognise you prefer one at a time.

 

[JayUtah]

Well Dagnabbit, here's that same ole pseudo-expert refuting Jay Utah again

There's Robert again thinking PDF 1.3 supports optional-content groups.

"...even though a portion or even a whole object may reside on different document layers, Acrobat views the object as a single item for selection and editing."

Exactly as I explained in my length example above. Too bad it has no bearing whatsoever on Obama's PDF, which at version 1.3 cannot support this.

 

[Robrob]

There's Robert again thinking PDF 1.3 supports optional-content groups.

Exactly as I explained in my length example above. Too bad it has no bearing whatsoever on Obama's PDF, which at version 1.3 cannot support this.

Apparently he's a knowledgeable about Adobe as he is about everything else?

 

[JayUtah]

Apparently he's a knowledgeable about Adobe as he is about everything else?

Yeah he just made the same mistake as before, only with a new sentence. He sees the word "layers" in an Adobe document and assumes it describes what he has been trying to say. Regurgitation without comprehension.

 

[Ladewig]

Well this just sucks!

Thanks. I needed that.

 

[Arus808]

Yup.

Yup. The pdf may contain as many layers, objects and double sided, left handed thribbles as it likes. Hell, through in a kitchen sink or three. It still doesn't matter. It still matches the paper copy.

Hawaii DOH could have written it in crayon on a linen napkin, and as long as it contains the Registrar's Signature, the embossed seal of Hawaii, and the form contains the Name, Date of Birth, Birth Location and the name(s) of the parents of the child, the document by all standards would be a legal CERTIFIED copy.


Mr. Prey's harping on a PDF is just a red herring, and basically what birthers have left since every single argument has been trounced legally.

 

[ArmillarySphere]

Hawaii DOH could have written it in crayon on a linen napkin

I should patent that example
Oh well, back to fixing bugs in django-CMS.

 

[Alferd_Packer]

There's some interesting birther activity this weekend, so we can ignore Robert for a while.

It appears that Orly has indeed filed her crazy lawsuit. This one is so nuts, it almost needs a separate thread for all it's crunchy goodness.

And in Kansas, the republican controlled state elections board is actually preparing to consider a ballot challenge to remove the president based on his birth certificate. The birther circus is heading to Wichita as I type this.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/09/kansas_birther_kris_kobach.php?m=1

 

[Alferd_Packer]

One of the claims from Orly's lawsuit

83. In and around November 19, 2011 Obama committed mail and wire fraud, when he through his agent, Deputy Campaign Manager Juliana Smoot, personally attacked and defamed Taitz:

"RELEASE THE MUGS By Julianna Smoot, Deputy Campaign Manager on November 19, 2011. Yesterday, four Republicans in the New Hampshire State House allowed a hearing requested by Orly Taitz, the notorious dentist-lawyer-birther who wants President Obama officially removed from the state’s primary ballot. So in honor of conspiracy theorists everywhere, we’re re-releasing the campaign’s limited-edition “Made in the USA” mugs. There’s clearly nothing we can do to satisfy this crowd—or anyone else who insists on wasting time and energy on nonsense like this. But when it starts to make your head hurt, I’ve found the best remedy is to have some tea in my “Made in the USA” mug. Works like a charm. I recommend Earl Grey."

 

[Robert Prey]

There's Robert again thinking PDF 1.3 supports optional-content groups.

Exactly as I explained in my length example above. Too bad it has no bearing whatsoever on Obama's PDF, which at version 1.3 cannot support this.

Nonsense. It has a very direct bearing when you open it up in Illustrator where even a PDF 1.3 will betray LAYERS. And the proof of that is the Obama COLB, in which Illustrator betrays its LAYERS. Deal with it.

 

[Ladewig]

There's some interesting birther activity this weekend, so we can ignore Robert for a while.

It appears that Orly has indeed filed her crazy lawsuit. This one is so nuts, it almost needs a separate thread for all it's crunchy goodness.

And in Kansas, the republican controlled state elections board is actually preparing to consider a ballot challenge to remove the president based on his birth certificate. The birther circus is heading to Wichita as I type this.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/09/kansas_birther_kris_kobach.php?m=1

So again, the question arises: sincere belief or simply playing to the balcony?

 

[Robert Prey]

How nice.

See Robert, you missed the very first sentence.

Here is your question. What PDF version does Acrobat 6 support?

A distinction without a difference. When you open Obama's COLB Pdf 1.3 in Illustrator, it betrays Layers as you very well know.

 

[thedopefishlives]

Nonsense. It has a very direct bearing when you open it up in Illustrator where even a PDF 1.3 will betray LAYERS. And the proof of that is the Obama COLB, in which Illustrator betrays its LAYERS. Deal with it.

You still don't get it, do you. ILLUSTRATOR LAYERS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH PDF "LAYERS". Please understand this concept, because it is getting almost painful to see you keep repeating the same stupidity as if it's gospel.

ETA: Oh, yeah, and the fact that Illustrator shows ONLY ONE LAYER for the Obama PDF apparently doesn't stop you, either. Stop confusing object groups and layers, because they are not the same thing, as you have been told REPEATEDLY.

 

[Robert Prey]

Originally Posted by Robert Prey
Not even you bothered to notice. Like how about that blue background in the AP "copy" but green background on the PDF?
Gamut. try to learn.

Gamut. try to learn.

Not a very good answer. When I scan blue it comes out blue, not green. So which one is a copy of the original and which is the fake?

 

[TjW]

A distinction without a difference. When you open Obama's COLB Pdf 1.3 in Illustrator, it betrays Layers as you very well know.

But when I open it with NoLayerinator version 1.0, it doesn't. Indeed, nothing does. Therefore, layers don't exist.

 

[Straw Man]

A distinction without a difference. When you open Obama's COLB Pdf 1.3 in Illustrator, it betrays Layers as you very well know.

Actually, it betrays Birthers ignorance.

 

[Robert Prey]

You still don't get it, do you. ILLUSTRATOR LAYERS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH PDF "LAYERS". Please understand this concept, because it is getting almost painful to see you keep repeating the same stupidity as if it's gospel.

ETA: Oh, yeah, and the fact that Illustrator shows ONLY ONE LAYER for the Obama PDF apparently doesn't stop you, either. Stop confusing object groups and layers, because they are not the same thing, as you have been told REPEATEDLY.

When you click the expand tab in Illustrator, it betrays layers as you very well should know. You may call them groups, elements, objects or bananas, but everyone else save for a few "deep thinkers" on this board, call them LAYERS. And the word "stupidity" is an ad hominem attack used in place of rational argument. PDF Layers as versus Illustrator layers is a distinction without a substantive difference. The idea is the betrayal of a digital creation.