Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[Giordano]

Why are they pathetic?

Because they are so gullible that they believe the medical community when when it tells them they can't figure out why 1 and a 1/2 year old toddlers become autistic after receiving a MMR vaccination.

The science has shown that the toddlers do not become autistic after receiving an MMR vaccination. Toddlers who are vaccinated develop autism at the same rates as than toddlers who don't receive a vaccination. That is why we know MMR doen't cause autism. And the vaccinated toddlers don't get sick from measles, rubella, or mumps.

Clayton, what don't you care enough about autistic children to give up on this discredited lie and support research into the real causes of autism?

 

[Giordano]

As usual my on the money views bring the money huggers out of the wood work.

Money huggers???

In any case, it was Wakefield who stood to make money by selling his alternative to the MMR vaccination, and whose research was discredited.

If you accept that money corrupts, why do you believe his work?

 

[Giordano]

That's a fact.

Here are some other facts:
Vaccines make people very sexy!
People who are not vaccinated by age 3 die of meteorite impacts.
Vaccines will allow you to live forever.
Vaccinated people make 6 times more money per week than unvaccinated people.

Don't ask me for evidence for my facts: such a request is too stupid to reply to!
Any facts to the contrary are pathetic!
People who disagree with me (all 5 million of them worldwide) are paid off!

 

[Robrob]

Why are they pathetic?

Because they are so gullible that they believe the medical community when when it tells them they can't figure out why 1 and a 1/2 year old toddlers become autistic after receiving a MMR vaccination.

The 1 and 1/2 year old toddlers are also becoming autistic after eating solid food for the first time. Maybe there's a connection there?

Or maybe you need to look up the logical fallacy "correlation does not imply causation?"

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

That's pathetic.

How do you judge the correctness of any parent's opinion about their child's health?

 

[pakeha]

...As for whether it is a detriment or benefit to the species, the fact that smallpox was erradicated from the face of the Earth by a program of vaccination, the fact that polio is poised to follow smallpox ( and possibly would have by now had it not been for anti-vax crusaders), the fact that diptheria, whooping cough and measles have been greatly reduced specifically due to vaccination programs would indicate a benefit to society.

CM, do you think the above is true?

 

[Arisia]

Well, I notice the part of my post that makes mention of the fact that the early (and, yes, subtle) signs of Autism are there well before the first MMR vaccination takes place was ignored.
I have 2 more nieces and 6 more nephews, all of whom are typical for their age, and all are fully vaccinated. If the MMR vaccination causes Autism, why don't more of my nieces and nephews have it?
I don't know how three of my young relatives were born with Autism, but I know the vaccinations that protect them from so many deadly diseases have nothing to do with it.

 

[Tomblvd]

As usual my on the money views bring the money huggers out of the wood work.

So just who are these "money huggers"?

In earlier threads you blamed greedy physicians, hospitals and "BigPharma" for pushing vaccines.

Now you are blaming insurance companies for pushing combination vaccines to save money (at the expense of physicians).

Which is it? You have two mutually exclusive theories here.

 

[jdc324]

Do you believe the parents or corporations standing to lose 100s of millions of dollars?

I doubt people here base their views on vaccination on what the manufacturers say. I'd say it was more likely that they based them on the evidence.

You know, like the evidence cited here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2908388/table/T1/ the case-control studies, the ecological studies, the cohort studies...

Here are some quotes from the studies that show no association between MMR and autism:

Although a trend toward increasing autism diagnoses by year of birth was confirmed, no change in the rates of autism diagnoses after the 1987 introduction of MMR vaccine was observed. Further, MMR vaccination rates of autistic children were similar to those of the entire study population.

More than 3 million person-years of observation during 1988–1999 confirmed an increase in autism diagnoses despite stable MMR vaccination rates.

As was observed in the United Kingdom, the increase in the number of autism diagnoses did not correlate with MMR vaccination rates.

Autism rates increased coincident with a decrease in MMR vaccination rates. The results were unchanged when both exposure and outcome definitions varied, including a strict diagnosis of autism.

The authors observed no differences between case and control children in practitioner consultation rates—a surrogate for parental concerns about their child’s development—within 6 months after MMR vaccination, which suggests that the diagnosis of autism was not temporally related to MMR vaccination.

Of 309 children hospitalized for autistic disorders, no clustering occurred relative to the time of MMR vaccination.

The authors observed no differences in the relative risk of autism between those who did and those who did not receive MMR vaccine. Among autistic children, no relationship between date of vaccination and development of autism was observed.

The authors observed no differences in age at vaccination between autistic and nonautistic children, which suggests that early age of MMR vaccine exposure was not a risk factor for autism.

Clayton, can you find evidence as good as (or better than) the studies in the table I linked to? (You can get an idea of what sort of evidence is required by reading this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchy_of_evidence; note that the evidence Gerber and Offit looked at included cohort and case-control studies.)

 

[jaydeehess]

As usual my on the money views bring the money huggers out of the wood work.

where did that happen? Who are you referring to?

Anything to say about the study I posted the conclusions of?
The teenager who died from measles?
Care to defend Wakefield's paying children for their blood at a birthday party? Care to defend Wakefield subjecting kids to colonoscopies or spinal taps?
(have you had either yourself, Clayton? You are in the danger age it would seem, for colon cancer, you should have a colonoscopy)

 

[jaydeehess]

The emotional response of 4. miserably or contemptibly inadequate: is definitively a personal opinion as there is no objective way to measure it.
One can somewhat measure inadequacy but how does one measure miserableness, or contemptuousness?

Point is moot anyway since Clayton did not even attempt to address how it fits his declaration of 'Pathetic" being a "fact".

ETA: Please show the evidence of it being a fact

.
Why are they pathetic?

Because they are so gullible that they believe the medical community when when it tells them they can't figure out why 1 and a 1/2 year old toddlers become autistic after receiving a MMR vaccination.

No Clayton, we all know your emotional contempt for medical science. You were asked to illustrate that it is a 'fact' that it is pathetic.

 

[Stamuel]

Why are they pathetic?

Because they are so gullible that they believe the medical community when when it tells them they can't figure out why 1 and a 1/2 year old toddlers become autistic after receiving a MMR vaccination.

There are several studies documenting that autism and its effects are present at birth, definitely by 6 months. For example, PNAS December 13, 2011, vol. 108, no. 50, 20195–20200, and JAMA 2003;290:337-344 are studies showing that children with autism have abnormal head growth starting at birth.

The article found in MENTAL RETARDATION AND DEVELOPMENTAL DISABILITIES RESEARCH REVIEWS 10: 106–111 (2004) is a review of several studies about autism and abnormal head and brain growth.

These are just a couple of the studies I happen to have downloaded due to curiosity about autism. While the obvious behavioral symptoms that parents notice happen around 18 months, there is a lot of evidence that children do not "come down" with autism at that time. It is just when people first notice it.

 

[000063]

That's pathetic.

Do their families have a history of autism?

Whoosh.

Why are they pathetic?

Because they are so gullible that they believe the medical community when when it tells them they can't figure out why 1 and a 1/2 year old toddlers become autistic after receiving a MMR vaccination.

Thank goodness people on the internet with no medical training can form post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacies and ignore any contrary evidence!

Or are you now claiming that vaccines can somehow make parents pass on autism to their children, even if the children have not received any MMR vaccine? Because as has been pointed out, there is no difference in autism rates between vacced and unvacced kids.

 

[Clayton Moore]

So just who are these "money huggers"?

In earlier threads you blamed greedy physicians, hospitals and "BigPharma" for pushing vaccines.

Now you are blaming insurance companies for pushing combination vaccines to save money (at the expense of physicians).

Which is it? You have two mutually exclusive theories here.

(at the expense of physicians)? When was the last time you arrived at a half full doctors office?

 

[Tomtomkent]

(at the expense of physicians)? When was the last time you arrived at a half full doctors office?

A few weeks back.

What does this have to do with you not understanding genetics?

 

[abaddon]

(at the expense of physicians)? When was the last time you arrived at a half full doctors office?

Well, every time I go to the doc. Was there a point you wanted to make?

 

[pakeha]

There are several studies documenting that autism and its effects are present at birth, definitely by 6 months. For example, PNAS December 13, 2011, vol. 108, no. 50, 20195–20200, and JAMA 2003;290:337-344 are studies showing that children with autism have abnormal head growth starting at birth.

The article found in MENTAL RETARDATION AND DEVELOPMENTAL DISABILITIES RESEARCH REVIEWS 10: 106–111 (2004) is a review of several studies about autism and abnormal head and brain growth.

These are just a couple of the studies I happen to have downloaded due to curiosity about autism. While the obvious behavioral symptoms that parents notice happen around 18 months, there is a lot of evidence that children do not "come down" with autism at that time. It is just when people first notice it.

Any comments on this, CM?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Any comments on this, CM?

Garbage.

 

[Sledge]

Garbage.

That's very economical of you, you've condensed your normal posts into one word.

 

[Straw Man]

(at the expense of physicians)? When was the last time you arrived at a half full doctors office?

I've never seen mine even approaching half full.