Should Corporate Profits be Banned?

Originally Posted by SkepticalDrew
Yup. Even personal profits should be banned. No one should be allowed to profit on anything, ever.

So you're from what no-profit paradise? North Korea? Or Cuba????

Robert, you may need to lighten up: I'm pretty sure SkepticalDrew was being sarcastic.
 
Do all employees lose their jobs every time the company makes a loss?

All? No. some, yes. However, employees often near the brunt if losses with benefit losses, salary cut backs and job loss. Employees rarely get a share of any profits.

It's my opinion that labor bears the brunt of risk and gets little of the rewards
 
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Isn't job loss enough?

That's pretty much what happened to me at Disney. Because the profits expected from Pocahontas were down from what they had been for Aladdin and The Lion King there were personnel cut-backs. I was lowest on the totem-pole in the layout crew; so I got axed. Unfortunately, I didn't get any corresponding profit share from the greater successes of those two earlier pictures I worked on.

Generally, this is the only motive for employees: If profits are up, the executives get bonuses and possibly share in the profits. The only positive motivation for the employees, usually, is to keep their jobs. If profits are down, ideally the execs take a loss, although that might not happen; but the employee, who is most often cut out of the decision making process, may lose his job.

During the time I worked in the animation industry, I ended up working on several ill-conceived programs and features.Among them was Starchaser: The Legend of Orrin. The script was lousy and derviative as hell. I and the other artists had no control over it, and we paid the price of its failure - unemployment when the film did poorly.

When I was working on The Lion King, one of the latest story reels - a mix of storyboards, rough animation and finished, painted animation of the entire film - was shown to the crew for feedback. Because Disney couldn't have the hero, Simba, kill the villain, Scar in a "family film," the writers had Scar get struck by lightening after giving Simba a drubbing. The feedback we gave was that the hero had to beat the villain for the story to work (duh!). Accordingly, they changed their proposed ending, which was later jokingly called the "wimpy Simba ending." None of us got any royalties or any share of the profits for saving the picture by telling their writers what they apparently couldn't figure out for themselves. The movie twas quite profitable - but not particularly for the artists who made - and saved - it.

I'm willing to bet that my experience in the animation industry mirrors other industries. BTW, it was typical of the bean counters, who wouldn't know a well-plotted story if it bit them in the tush, to blame the artists for the failure of their ill-conceived ventures. Thus, I tend to turn a jaundiced eye on suggestions that the employees should take a loss for managements piss-poor decisions. Perhaps that's why there's less profit sharing than there might be: Those further down might want to have a hand in decision-making, as well as a share of the profits.

I realize I've digressed from the topic ofthe OP: So, to give Schiff credit, he did find some people with stupid opinions at the DNC - just as the interviewer I cited found them among the tea-baggers.
 
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan
According to the Wikipedia entry on Irwin Schiff, he refused to disclose his income on tax returns for 1973 - 1975, for which he was convicted of tax evasion. in October 1985 Irwin Schiff was agains convicted of tax evasion with respect to personal income taxes from 1980 through 1982, as well as willful failure to file a corporate tax return for his company.

The Wiki site also said that in 2004 a federal court found Schiff liable for over $2 million in taxes, penalties and interest for the years 1979 - 1985. The site also says:

In that case, Schiff's attorney had filed a brief claiming a diminished capacity defense, contending that Schiff had been diagnosed with a chronic, severe delusional disorder relating to his beliefs about the federal income tax system.

Among Irwin Schiff's bleifs and assertions is the following:

. . . the U.S. Federal income tax was repealed in the 1950s, and that U.S. officials were engaged in a conspiracy: "Since the income tax was repealed in 1954 when Congress adopted the 1954 Code, . . .

Perhaps he doesn't so much belong in prison as i a padded cell. However, he wasn't imprisoned for writing books.



Why don't you enlighten me, using specific, reasoned arguments to back up your, as yet unsupported, assertion that Irwin Schiff was jailed for his writings, rather than income tax evasion?

It's called Selective Prosecution.
 
Well, I'm happy to hear that you approve of profit sharing. That is consistent with a belief in the profit motive. Employees will be motivated to do above and beyond what is merely required to increase profits, from which they will benefit. Unfortunately, all too few of those who give ardent lip-service to the principle of the profit motive don't really believe in it when it comes to motivating their employees. I think you will find that profit sharing is the exception rather than the rule.

A case in point, though you might see it as anecdotal, is the position of the executives of the Walt Disney feature animation unit on the subject of either profit sharing or royalties. While even the minor actors doing voice-over work on such films as Aladdin, The Lion King and Pocahontas were given royalties, the animators and other artists, who put far more creative effort into producing those films, did not receive any royalties, nor did they share in the company's profits. Every so often, the company would make a big deal of calling all of us together (I worked on the three films mentioned) to ask us for input on ways to make things better at the feature animation unit. When my supervisor, the head of the layout department, suggested giving us royalties, the company spokesman chairing the meeting said hastily that, "We're working on that," and passed on to the next question from the assemble troops. On other occasions, the company spokesperson would say, "Well, this isn't the proper forum in which to discuss that matter," and again the subject was passed by. Suffice it to say that we never saw any compensation from Disney other than our wages. The discomfort exhibited by management when the question was brought up was such that I quipped that the most effective cathartic to use on a Disney executive was to mention either profit sharing or royalties.

Disney still managed to get high quality work out us, because creative people have a need to create, which serves as an independent motivating force. However, their negative attitude toward sharing their profits with their employees came across as excessively selfish and short-sighted. This exclusionary attitude when it comes to sharing profits with the rank and file, which, as I said earlier, I believe to be far more common than profit sharing, may provoke much of the emotional antagonism many feel toward corporations.

Another problem is the negative effect profits may have on one's employment. While such an idea is counterintuitive, I can tell you, from personal experience, it does happen. When Time-Warner merged with Turner Broadcasting in 1996, Hanna Barbera, owned by Turner, was merged with Warner's animation unit. This was all a friendly takeover, of which Hanna Barbera's profitability was a part. The problem was that now two animation staffs in one company created redundancy. Thus, since H&B was the junior partner, their animation staff was laid off. That meant that my wife, who had started as a cel painter, then moved into special effects and eventually became a key background painter, lost her job of 16 years. Had there been any system of royalties in place (which, as in the case of Disney, the voice-over actors had, but the artists did not) she could have had some continuing income. Instead, specifically because of H&B's profitability, she had a job one week and didn't the next. And that was it, a 40 hour notice of permanent layoff.

My point,then, is that, while I have nothing against corporations and other companies making a profit, I do feel they should pay their taxes (this is particularly important in the case of energy companies, which often benefited from government subsidies), and I also think they should share their profits with their employees.

Corporations don't pay taxes. They merely pass on the expense to consumers. The more you tax the oil companies, the higher the price at the pump. In my area , it's $4.25 a gallon and soaring. And you want even higher gas prices.
 
Corporations don't pay taxes. They merely pass on the expense to consumers.

By that logic, nobody is taxed, because it always gets passed to someone else.

The more you tax the oil companies, the higher the price at the pump. In my area , it's $4.25 a gallon and soaring. And you want even higher gas prices.

And exactly which tax caused this sudden increase in prices?
 
No. The buck stops with the consumer. Econ. 101.

Tax the corporation, they raise prices, effectively taxing the consumers. Tax the consumer, they buy less goods, effectively taxing the corporations. Round and round it goes.
 
By that logic, nobody is taxed, because it always gets passed to someone else.



And exactly which tax caused this sudden increase in prices?

There are visible taxes (about 40 to 50% in a lot of locals). There are hidden taxes that the corporation pays but are hidden from the consumer and passed on. And then there are the Obama taxes -- the unseen curbs on oil production and gasoline refineries due to EPA and other nonsense. And that leaves the law of supply and demand. Demand is up, supplies are up, but not enough due to Obamanomics and his Marxist ideology.
 
Tax the corporation, they raise prices, effectively taxing the consumers. Tax the consumer, they buy less goods, effectively taxing the corporations. Round and round it goes.

Taxing the consumer does not tax the corporation. The buck stops with the consumer.
 
And not paying taxes, which conviction was for writing a book?

All of them.
Like I said, Selective Prosecution.
6-30-03

Judge Bans Schiff Book on Income Tax

1st Amendment Thrashed to Buy the Tax More Time
New York Times: More Deception
On Monday, June 16, Federal District Court Judge Lloyd D. George issued a preliminary injunction banning the sale and distribution of Irwin Schiff’s book about the income tax titled, “The Federal Mafia: How The Government Illegally Imposes And Unlawfully Collects Income Taxes And How Americans Can Fight Back.”

http://www.givemeliberty.org/NoRedress/Update06-30B-03.htm
 
There are visible taxes (about 40 to 50% in a lot of locals). There are hidden taxes that the corporation pays but are hidden from the consumer and passed on. And then there are the Obama taxes -- the unseen curbs on oil production and gasoline refineries due to EPA and other nonsense. And that leaves the law of supply and demand. Demand is up, supplies are up, but not enough due to Obamanomics and his Marxist ideology.

Doesn't answer the question. Which taxes caused gas prices to go up to over $4/gallon?
 
All of them.
Like I said, Selective Prosecution.
6-30-03

Judge Bans Schiff Book on Income Tax

1st Amendment Thrashed to Buy the Tax More Time
New York Times: More Deception
On Monday, June 16, Federal District Court Judge Lloyd D. George issued a preliminary injunction banning the sale and distribution of Irwin Schiff’s book about the income tax titled, “The Federal Mafia: How The Government Illegally Imposes And Unlawfully Collects Income Taxes And How Americans Can Fight Back.”

http://www.givemeliberty.org/NoRedress/Update06-30B-03.htm
Some how is doesn't follow.

Also looks like yo can buy it on Amazon

http://www.amazon.com/Federal-Mafia-Illegally-Unlawfully-Collects/dp/0930374096

Epic fai!
 
All of them.
Like I said, Selective Prosecution.
6-30-03

Judge Bans Schiff Book on Income Tax

1st Amendment Thrashed to Buy the Tax More Time
New York Times: More Deception
On Monday, June 16, Federal District Court Judge Lloyd D. George issued a preliminary injunction banning the sale and distribution of Irwin Schiff’s book about the income tax titled, “The Federal Mafia: How The Government Illegally Imposes And Unlawfully Collects Income Taxes And How Americans Can Fight Back.”

http://www.givemeliberty.org/NoRedress/Update06-30B-03.htm

Here is the New York Times article on the ruling by Judge Lloyd George. As one can see from this quote from the article, it's not such a violation of the First Amendment as Schiff's defenders claim it to be (emphasis added):

Mr. Schiff and his associates, the judge wrote, knew that they ''are offering fraudulent tax advice'' and that the book is false commercial speech which ''is not protected by the First Amendment.''


''The First Amendment does not shield criminal conduct in tax schemes,'' the judge wrote in his 35-page opinion.

He ruled that the record in the two criminal tax prosecutions of Mr. Schiff, which resulted in prison sentences, established that he knew that his tax advice was inaccurate.


Just as a book telling how to make explosives and urging people to plant them at police stations wouldn't be protected by the First Amendment, and just as child pornography is not protected by the First Amendment, so a book urging criminal tax evasion is not protected by the First Amendment. A book arguing that the income tax is unconstitutional, even urging people to challenge the imposition of the income tax in court, would be protected under the First Amendment. Telling people that they can refuse to pay it and urging them not to pay it, when the author knows from experience that such activity will result in criminal prosecution, is not covered by the First Amendment.

I feel that the government's policy with regard to marijuana is outrageous and that it should be a legal drug, on the same footing as alcohol. Should I write a book arguing for the legalization of pot and urging people to challenge the law in the courts, that book would be covered by the First Amendment. Should I write a book telling people they can grow and smoke pot with impunity, knowing that the DEA will likely raid their pot fields and imprison them for growing pot, or should I write a book telling them how to grow it inside, clandestinely, to evade detection; such works would not be protected by the First Amendment.

Irwin Schiff was convicted of tax evasion, plain and simple.
 
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Corporations don't pay taxes. They merely pass on the expense to consumers. The more you tax the oil companies, the higher the price at the pump. In my area , it's $4.25 a gallon and soaring. And you want even higher gas prices.

I'm in Southern California. It sounds from your $4.25 cost per gallon that you are as well. Please support your argument that gas taxes are to blame, rather than speculation in the market, by providing some numbers rom a reputable source.

BTW, in the extensive post I made, to which you responded concerning taxes on corporations, there was a whole lot of material about employees paying the price for bad decisions on the part of management, often while the managers of those companies were never penalized. Sometimes, they even gave themselves bonuses. Do you have any ideas on how to address such injustices?
 
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