Should Corporate Profits be Banned?

4) Finally, let me ask you, Robert Prey: Do you believe in the profit motive as the main motivating factor in our economic system, and do you feel it is also what motivates, or should motivate, employees?
. . . (mega-snip) . . .

I don't know about Robert Prey, but I think it is. Why do you ask? Do you think it isn't? Do you think it's even possible that it could be otherwise?

I have a special reason for asking Robert Prey's position on this, particularly on the hilited portion.
 
Should Corporate Profits be Banned?

Peter Schiff poses the question to Dem Delegates and gets the incredible answer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07fTsF5BiSM&feature=share

OMG, that was Hilarious. I get these kind of naive anti-corporation ideas all the time when I'm talking with modern liberals. (usually democrats)

Of course Peter must have come across one or two that had a bit more economic sense. Maybe three. But these ideas, or variations thereof, are really quite common.

THe funny thing is that if these people really believe this, they shouldn't be voting for Obama. Heck, he ***gives*** alot of their money to corporations!
 
1) For starters, we have here an edited video. We have no idea how many people who said, no, corporations should be allowed to make profits.

2) In spite of that, a number of those Schiff interviewed only said they wanted caps on excessive profits.

3) Sometimes, when looking into the validity of "gotcha" videos, such as this one, it's a good idea to look into the motivation and politics of the interviewer. While such an appproach could degenerate into an ad hominem attack, we would want to take into account in a video on, for example, an environmental issue the fact that it had been produced by an organization such as Greenpeace. Here's are two excerpts from the Wikipedia article on Schiff (hiliites added):

Schiff was an economic adviser to Ron Paul's unsuccessful 2008 presidential campaign. In support of Paul's economic revitalization plan, Schiff said: "We need a plan that stimulates savings and production, not more of the reckless borrowing and consumption that got us into this mess in the first place. Ron Paul's plan is the only one that amounts to a step in the right direction. If you want meaningful change—for the better that is—Ron Paul is the only candidate capable of delivering it."
Schiff supports the reduction of government economic regulation, and is concerned that President Obama's administration may increase such regulation.[42] Schiff says that the economic crisis of the late-2000s provides an opportunity to transition from borrowing and spending, to saving and producing. He is critical of the U.S. government's efforts to "ease the pain" with economic stimulus packages and bailouts. According to Schiff, the U.S. government's approach of replacing "legitimate savings with a printing press" could result in hyperinflation.

4) Finally, let me ask you, Robert Prey: Do you believe in the profit motive as the main motivating factor in our economic system, and do you feel it is also what motivates, or should motivate, employees?

You've got to be kidding.
 
Of course Peter Schiff rants and raves against the U.S. government -- they're the one that put Daddy Schiff the tax denier guru away for tax evasion. Between those two, I'm not sure which one I'd rather pick as my economic advisor.

No. Daddy Schiff the economic genius tax expert guru was mainly put away for writing books.
 
Originally Posted by TimCallahan
1) For starters, we have here an edited video. We have no idea how many people who said, no, corporations should be allowed to make profits.

2) In spite of that, a number of those Schiff interviewed only said they wanted caps on excessive profits.

3) Sometimes, when looking into the validity of "gotcha" videos, such as this one, it's a good idea to look into the motivation and politics of the interviewer. While such an appproach could degenerate into an ad hominem attack, we would want to take into account in a video on, for example, an environmental issue the fact that it had been produced by an organization such as Greenpeace. Here's are two excerpts from the Wikipedia article on Schiff (hiliites added):

Schiff was an economic adviser to Ron Paul's unsuccessful 2008 presidential campaign. In support of Paul's economic revitalization plan, Schiff said: "We need a plan that stimulates savings and production, not more of the reckless borrowing and consumption that got us into this mess in the first place. Ron Paul's plan is the only one that amounts to a step in the right direction. If you want meaningful change—for the better that is—Ron Paul is the only candidate capable of delivering it."

Schiff supports the reduction of government economic regulation, and is concerned that President Obama's administration may increase such regulation.[42] Schiff says that the economic crisis of the late-2000s provides an opportunity to transition from borrowing and spending, to saving and producing. He is critical of the U.S. government's efforts to "ease the pain" with economic stimulus packages and bailouts. According to Schiff, the U.S. government's approach of replacing "legitimate savings with a printing press" could result in hyperinflation.

4) Finally, let me ask you, Robert Prey: Do you believe in the profit motive as the main motivating factor in our economic system, and do you feel it is also what motivates, or should motivate, employees?

You've got to be kidding.

I make three points that you can either accept or refute, and ask one question, and the only thing you can think of as a response is "You've got to be kidding"?

Okay, I'll simplify it for you. First, just to get it out of the way, I do believe corporations should be allowed to make profits. Now that I've dealt with the obvious, here's my question for you:

I'm going to assume that you believe in the profit motive as the prime motivating factor in our economic system, as do I. That said, do you believe that only the CEOs and other executives should benefit from the profits of a corporation, or do you believe that the employees should benefit from profits as well?

This is a pretty simple, straightforward question. Anyone who isn't a troll should have no trouble answering it.
 
No. Daddy Schiff the economic genius tax expert guru was mainly put away for writing books.

According to the Wikipedia entry on Irwin Schiff, he refused to disclose his income on tax returns for 1973 - 1975, for which he was convicted of tax evasion. in October 1985 Irwin Schiff was agains convicted of tax evasion with respect to personal income taxes from 1980 through 1982, as well as willful failure to file a corporate tax return for his company.

The Wiki site also said that in 2004 a federal court found Schiff liable for over $2 million in taxes, penalties and interest for the years 1979 - 1985. The site also says:

In that case, Schiff's attorney had filed a brief claiming a diminished capacity defense, contending that Schiff had been diagnosed with a chronic, severe delusional disorder relating to his beliefs about the federal income tax system.

Among Irwin Schiff's bleifs and assertions is the following:

. . . the U.S. Federal income tax was repealed in the 1950s, and that U.S. officials were engaged in a conspiracy: "Since the income tax was repealed in 1954 when Congress adopted the 1954 Code, . . .

Perhaps he doesn't so much belong in prison as i a padded cell. However, he wasn't imprisoned for writing books.
 
According to the Wikipedia entry on Irwin Schiff, he refused to disclose his income on tax returns for 1973 - 1975, for which he was convicted of tax evasion. in October 1985 Irwin Schiff was agains convicted of tax evasion with respect to personal income taxes from 1980 through 1982, as well as willful failure to file a corporate tax return for his company.

The Wiki site also said that in 2004 a federal court found Schiff liable for over $2 million in taxes, penalties and interest for the years 1979 - 1985. The site also says:

In that case, Schiff's attorney had filed a brief claiming a diminished capacity defense, contending that Schiff had been diagnosed with a chronic, severe delusional disorder relating to his beliefs about the federal income tax system.

Among Irwin Schiff's bleifs and assertions is the following:

. . . the U.S. Federal income tax was repealed in the 1950s, and that U.S. officials were engaged in a conspiracy: "Since the income tax was repealed in 1954 when Congress adopted the 1954 Code, . . .

Perhaps he doesn't so much belong in prison as i a padded cell. However, he wasn't imprisoned for writing books.

Obvioulsy, neither you now Wikapedia know much about Irwin Schiff nor about the tax laws.
 
Originally Posted by TimCallahan
1) For starters, we have here an edited video. We have no idea how many people who said, no, corporations should be allowed to make profits.

2) In spite of that, a number of those Schiff interviewed only said they wanted caps on excessive profits.

3) Sometimes, when looking into the validity of "gotcha" videos, such as this one, it's a good idea to look into the motivation and politics of the interviewer. While such an appproach could degenerate into an ad hominem attack, we would want to take into account in a video on, for example, an environmental issue the fact that it had been produced by an organization such as Greenpeace. Here's are two excerpts from the Wikipedia article on Schiff (hiliites added):

Schiff was an economic adviser to Ron Paul's unsuccessful 2008 presidential campaign. In support of Paul's economic revitalization plan, Schiff said: "We need a plan that stimulates savings and production, not more of the reckless borrowing and consumption that got us into this mess in the first place. Ron Paul's plan is the only one that amounts to a step in the right direction. If you want meaningful change—for the better that is—Ron Paul is the only candidate capable of delivering it."

Schiff supports the reduction of government economic regulation, and is concerned that President Obama's administration may increase such regulation.[42] Schiff says that the economic crisis of the late-2000s provides an opportunity to transition from borrowing and spending, to saving and producing. He is critical of the U.S. government's efforts to "ease the pain" with economic stimulus packages and bailouts. According to Schiff, the U.S. government's approach of replacing "legitimate savings with a printing press" could result in hyperinflation.

4) Finally, let me ask you, Robert Prey: Do you believe in the profit motive as the main motivating factor in our economic system, and do you feel it is also what motivates, or should motivate, employees?



I make three points that you can either accept or refute, and ask one question, and the only thing you can think of as a response is "You've got to be kidding"?

Okay, I'll simplify it for you. First, just to get it out of the way, I do believe corporations should be allowed to make profits. Now that I've dealt with the obvious, here's my question for you:

I'm going to assume that you believe in the profit motive as the prime motivating factor in our economic system, as do I. That said, do you believe that only the CEOs and other executives should benefit from the profits of a corporation, or do you believe that the employees should benefit from profits as well?


They can and they do. Ever hear of "Profit-Sharing"? I still don't get your point.
 
The main non sequitur of "gotcha" videos is the extrapolation, either explicitly claimed or merely implied, that the asinine responses of those interviewed reflect the official position of whatever group to which they belong, whether it be an environmental group, a social movement or a political party. In some cases one can logically extrapolate, particularly if the group is diffused, somewhat amorphous and without any official organization. Thus, "gotcha" videos of either members of the Occupy movements on the left, or the Tea Party on the right, might well be a true reflection of the belief system of group in general.

Another problem with some gotcha videos is the manner in which the questions are asked. Schiff's questions were clearly leading, implying a point of view to which he expected an affirmative response. While this does not excuse asinine answers, I might contrast this video with one in which people interviewed people at a Pea Party rally, who were against "czars," the term used to describe officials with extraordinary powers appointed to deal with a given crisis. Even when the interviewers explained that Bush had appointed more "czars" than had Obama, the tea-baggers were still against Obama for appointing czars, which these people seemed to see as some literal version of the original Russian office, hence un-American. These were both "gotcha" videos, but those interviewing people at the Tea Party rally were honest in their questions and general approach, while Schiff was dishonest.
 
The main non sequitur of "gotcha" videos is the extrapolation, either explicitly claimed or merely implied, that the asinine responses of those interviewed reflect the official position of whatever group to which they belong, whether it be an environmental group, a social movement or a political party. In some cases one can logically extrapolate, particularly if the group is diffused, somewhat amorphous and without any official organization. Thus, "gotcha" videos of either members of the Occupy movements on the left, or the Tea Party on the right, might well be a true reflection of the belief system of group in general.

Another problem with some gotcha videos is the manner in which the questions are asked. Schiff's questions were clearly leading, implying a point of view to which he expected an affirmative response. While this does not excuse asinine answers, I might contrast this video with one in which people interviewed people at a Pea Party rally, who were against "czars," the term used to describe officials with extraordinary powers appointed to deal with a given crisis. Even when the interviewers explained that Bush had appointed more "czars" than had Obama, the tea-baggers were still against Obama for appointing czars, which these people seemed to see as some literal version of the original Russian office, hence un-American. These were both "gotcha" videos, but those interviewing people at the Tea Party rally were honest in their questions and general approach, while Schiff was dishonest.

G.W. Bush is not a hero of Tea Party people. If you think he is, you just don't get it.
 
They can and they do. Ever hear of "Profit-Sharing"? I still don't get your point.

Well, I'm happy to hear that you approve of profit sharing. That is consistent with a belief in the profit motive. Employees will be motivated to do above and beyond what is merely required to increase profits, from which they will benefit. Unfortunately, all too few of those who give ardent lip-service to the principle of the profit motive don't really believe in it when it comes to motivating their employees. I think you will find that profit sharing is the exception rather than the rule.

A case in point, though you might see it as anecdotal, is the position of the executives of the Walt Disney feature animation unit on the subject of either profit sharing or royalties. While even the minor actors doing voice-over work on such films as Aladdin, The Lion King and Pocahontas were given royalties, the animators and other artists, who put far more creative effort into producing those films, did not receive any royalties, nor did they share in the company's profits. Every so often, the company would make a big deal of calling all of us together (I worked on the three films mentioned) to ask us for input on ways to make things better at the feature animation unit. When my supervisor, the head of the layout department, suggested giving us royalties, the company spokesman chairing the meeting said hastily that, "We're working on that," and passed on to the next question from the assemble troops. On other occasions, the company spokesperson would say, "Well, this isn't the proper forum in which to discuss that matter," and again the subject was passed by. Suffice it to say that we never saw any compensation from Disney other than our wages. The discomfort exhibited by management when the question was brought up was such that I quipped that the most effective cathartic to use on a Disney executive was to mention either profit sharing or royalties.

Disney still managed to get high quality work out us, because creative people have a need to create, which serves as an independent motivating force. However, their negative attitude toward sharing their profits with their employees came across as excessively selfish and short-sighted. This exclusionary attitude when it comes to sharing profits with the rank and file, which, as I said earlier, I believe to be far more common than profit sharing, may provoke much of the emotional antagonism many feel toward corporations.

Another problem is the negative effect profits may have on one's employment. While such an idea is counterintuitive, I can tell you, from personal experience, it does happen. When Time-Warner merged with Turner Broadcasting in 1996, Hanna Barbera, owned by Turner, was merged with Warner's animation unit. This was all a friendly takeover, of which Hanna Barbera's profitability was a part. The problem was that now two animation staffs in one company created redundancy. Thus, since H&B was the junior partner, their animation staff was laid off. That meant that my wife, who had started as a cel painter, then moved into special effects and eventually became a key background painter, lost her job of 16 years. Had there been any system of royalties in place (which, as in the case of Disney, the voice-over actors had, but the artists did not) she could have had some continuing income. Instead, specifically because of H&B's profitability, she had a job one week and didn't the next. And that was it, a 40 hour notice of permanent layoff.

My point,then, is that, while I have nothing against corporations and other companies making a profit, I do feel they should pay their taxes (this is particularly important in the case of energy companies, which often benefited from government subsidies), and I also think they should share their profits with their employees.
 
1) For starters, we have here an edited video. We have no idea how many people who said, no, corporations should be allowed to make profits.

2) In spite of that, a number of those Schiff interviewed only said they wanted caps on excessive profits.

3) Sometimes, when looking into the validity of "gotcha" videos, such as this one, it's a good idea to look into the motivation and politics of the interviewer. While such an appproach could degenerate into an ad hominem attack, we would want to take into account in a video on, for example, an environmental issue the fact that it had been produced by an organization such as Greenpeace. Here's are two excerpts from the Wikipedia article on Schiff (hiliites added):

Schiff was an economic adviser to Ron Paul's unsuccessful 2008 presidential campaign. In support of Paul's economic revitalization plan, Schiff said: "We need a plan that stimulates savings and production, not more of the reckless borrowing and consumption that got us into this mess in the first place. Ron Paul's plan is the only one that amounts to a step in the right direction. If you want meaningful change—for the better that is—Ron Paul is the only candidate capable of delivering it."
Schiff supports the reduction of government economic regulation, and is concerned that President Obama's administration may increase such regulation.[42] Schiff says that the economic crisis of the late-2000s provides an opportunity to transition from borrowing and spending, to saving and producing. He is critical of the U.S. government's efforts to "ease the pain" with economic stimulus packages and bailouts. According to Schiff, the U.S. government's approach of replacing "legitimate savings with a printing press" could result in hyperinflation.

4) Finally, let me ask you, Robert Prey: Do you believe in the profit motive as the main motivating factor in our economic system, and do you feel it is also what motivates, or should motivate, employees?

I was going to suggest a #5, but you did that yourself...

Another problem with some gotcha videos is the manner in which the questions are asked. Schiff's questions were clearly leading, implying a point of view to which he expected an affirmative response.

A fair, non-leading question would be, "What are you views on corporate profits?"
 
Originally Posted by TimCallahan
According to the Wikipedia entry on Irwin Schiff, he refused to disclose his income on tax returns for 1973 - 1975, for which he was convicted of tax evasion. in October 1985 Irwin Schiff was agains convicted of tax evasion with respect to personal income taxes from 1980 through 1982, as well as willful failure to file a corporate tax return for his company.

The Wiki site also said that in 2004 a federal court found Schiff liable for over $2 million in taxes, penalties and interest for the years 1979 - 1985. The site also says:

In that case, Schiff's attorney had filed a brief claiming a diminished capacity defense, contending that Schiff had been diagnosed with a chronic, severe delusional disorder relating to his beliefs about the federal income tax system.

Among Irwin Schiff's bleifs and assertions is the following:

. . . the U.S. Federal income tax was repealed in the 1950s, and that U.S. officials were engaged in a conspiracy: "Since the income tax was repealed in 1954 when Congress adopted the 1954 Code, . . .

Perhaps he doesn't so much belong in prison as i a padded cell. However, he wasn't imprisoned for writing books.

Obvioulsy, neither you now Wikapedia know much about Irwin Schiff nor about the tax laws.

Why don't you enlighten me, using specific, reasoned arguments to back up your, as yet unsupported, assertion that Irwin Schiff was jailed for his writings, rather than income tax evasion?
 
G.W. Bush is not a hero of Tea Party people. If you think he is, you just don't get it.

Nor did I say in my post that he was. My point, which you seem to have ignored, was that the people at the Tea Party rally really seemed to think Obama was creating Russian style czars, rather than understanding that the term "czar" was only a term for a professional government appointee with extra powers.

BTW, here is the gotcha video of the Tea Party rally, showing their confusion with the term "czar," among a whole lot of other things. You will notice that the interviewer does not use any leading questions, nor does he make any pretense at agreeing with those he's interviewing - in stark contrast to Peter Schiff.
 
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