• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Moderated Obama birth certificate CT / SSN CT / Birther discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
Robert Prey said:
Your single layer theory has been thoroughly vetted and debunked by experts around the world, including Adobe. Deal with it.

"PDF files can contain layered content if they are created from layered documents by using applications such as Adobe InDesign. As a result, a single page of the PDF file can contain different layers with different content."

-- Adobe

http://helpx.adobe.com/acrobat/kb/printing-complex-pdfs-acrobat.html

Nuff said.
Click to expand...

But the PDF in question wasn't created from a layered document and has no layers. It contained a single layer with an object group. So how does that debunk Jay?

Does the meta data of the PDF show it was made in InDesign? Are you sure this proves what you claim it proves?
 
LSSBB said:
Allegations of fraud in this case are a convenient CT plot device, ala "photos were faked", cf "pdf faked" in this instance. Too bad there's not "40+ medical witnesses" type baloney to make it even more JFKish.
Click to expand...

I heard that Sylvester Stalone was going to use that plot device in his movie: "Expendables 2," but the producers rejected it as too implausible and unrealistic.
 
Tomtomkent said:
But the PDF in question wasn't created from a layered document and has no layers. It contained a single layer with an object group. So how does that debunk Jay?

Does the meta data of the PDF show it was made in InDesign? Are you sure this proves what you claim it proves?
Click to expand...

It does not, it just proves that RP does not understand what Adobe say and the only one person he has cited as an expert is an expert and does not support anything the Birthers say.
 
davefoc said:
Exactly, it is surprising that Mudcat didn't see that right away. Obviously Wikipedia is part of the Marxist, Muslim conspiracy to get Kenyans elected to the US presidency and to make Americans think that Hawaii is a state so that it can use it as a base to get Kenyans elected president of the US.
Click to expand...

If Wikiperdia were a reliable, objective source of information ,then Conservapedia.Com would not exist.


A sample of their oeuvre

Conservapedi article on the alleged birth certificate said:
Barack Hussein Obama II, former community activist and senator from Illinois and current President of the United States, was allegedly[1][2][3][4][5] born in Honolulu on Aug. 4, 1961. A growing movement contends that since Obama had refused to release his long-form birth certificate from the state of Hawaii and since documentary evidence indicates that he may have been born in Kenya, Obama is ineligible to serve as president according to the U.S. Constitution. Obama's supporters and a large swath of the Democratic Party state that Obama was born in Hawaii, and is therefore a "natural-born citizen"; they have dismissed outright the claims of the "birthers" - as they derisively call them - as a non-issue or another conspiracy theory.
Click to expand...

Robert, there is some great stuff in there. You should have spent the last ten pages referring to the birth certificate as the alleged birth certificate, and when we stopped whining about that you could have switched over to Obama's alleged birth.
 
Last edited:
Ladewig said:
If Wikiperdia were a reliable, objective source of information ,then Conservapedia.Com would not exist.
Click to expand...

While I did use Wikipedia as a source, I did use a secondary source to confirm the information:

www.gohawaii.com said:
“The Aloha State” became the 50th state in 1959, but the history of Hawaii goes back centuries earlier. Roughly 1,500 years ago, Polynesians from the Marquesas Islands first set foot on Hawaii Island. With only the stars to guide them, they miraculously sailed over 2000 miles in canoes to migrate to the Islands.
Click to expand...

I confirmed his birthday by pulling up his birth certificate, which shouldn't have even been possible. He was born in 1961, scarcely 3 years after it became a state.
 
Mudcat said:
Courtesy of Wikipedia:
You've just got proven wrong. Have a nice day :cool:
Click to expand...

You've been hoodwinked by the all-powerful global Spam conspiracy. Let's see the birth certificates of all the congressmen who allegedly voted for Hawaii statehood. And how do we know this "Hawaii" place isn't just a big soundstage in L.A.?
 
Robert Prey said:
Your single layer theory has been thoroughly vetted and debunked by experts around the world...
Click to expand...

No. None of your pseudo-experts has endured voir dire in a court. And they make fundamental mistakes. They are not experts, no matter how much you wish them to be.

...including Adobe. Deal with it.
Click to expand...

I have dealt with it, at length, multiple times. You have absolutely no clue what Adobe is talking about in the excerpt you cite. You are obviously not equipped to answer that discussion, so you simply repeat the quote over and over again as if repetition indicated understanding.

Nuff said.
Click to expand...

No, not enough. I wrote enough. You're just begging the question. Now you may either address the technical argument I made, or you may concede that you do not understand it. Choose.
 
Robert Prey said:
"Credibility polls" that exclude all experts from around the world who you disagree are hardly credible.
Click to expand...

You are the one telling us this case is being tried in the "court of public opinion." Don't whine to me when that court too dismisses your claims as nonsense.

You have no legal case.
You have no factual case.
You have no credibility.
You have no evidence.

All you have is a thinly-veiled hatred for the sitting President. That is not sufficient to claim him ineligible.
 
Dcdrac said:
...the only one person he has cited as an expert is an expert and does not support anything the Birthers say.
Click to expand...

I dispute that Ivan Zatkovich is a relevant expert. Neither his case record nor his c.v. indicates any expertise or experience in Adobe file formats, document preparation tools, or the forensic authentication of documents. His expertise is in contract and intellectual property law having to do with computer technology. He has not worked in a technical capacity in computer science since the mid 1980s.

It is, however, additionally true that Zatkovich is being selectively quoted by the Birthers in a way that distorts his findings.
 
JayUtah said:
I dispute that Ivan Zatkovich is a relevant expert. Neither his case record nor his c.v. indicates any expertise or experience in Adobe file formats, document preparation tools, or the forensic authentication of documents. His expertise is in contract and intellectual property law having to do with computer technology. He has not worked in a technical capacity in computer science since the mid 1980s.

It is, however, additionally true that Zatkovich is being selectively quoted by the Birthers in a way that distorts his findings.
Click to expand...

Point taken
 
Robert Prey said:
Your single layer theory has been thoroughly vetted and debunked by experts around the world, including Adobe. Deal with it.
Click to expand...
Name them and show their work. Because this is not the case, merely wishful thinking on your part.

Robert Prey said:
"PDF files can contain layered content if they are created from layered documents by using applications such as Adobe InDesign. As a result, a single page of the PDF file can contain different layers with different content."

-- Adobe

http://helpx.adobe.com/acrobat/kb/printing-complex-pdfs-acrobat.html

Nuff said.
Click to expand...
The PDF in question was not created from a layered document, but from a scan, which by definition is not a layered document, a scan can only produce a single flat image with no layers, objects or anything else. It is subsequent software processing which may produce one or more layers.

Adobe Indesign was not involved in the process AFAIK, unless you can prove otherwise.

Your precious Adobe quote is not applicable. A scanned document cannot have anything other than asimgle bitmap image. What is done with that image afterwards, even down to the simple choice as to what format to save as, will drasticly affect the creation of other structures.

This has been explained to you in enormous detail within this thread. Subject matter experts have explained it to you repeatedly, yet you stubbornly insist that YOU are right, in the face of the evidence, nay, the reality.

Really, Bob, you should concede gracefully, because if you continue along this vein(vain?) line, you will continue to be buried by the expertise you failed to consider might be present on this forum.
 
abaddon said:
Adobe Indesign was not involved in the process AFAIK, unless you can prove otherwise.

Your precious Adobe quote is not applicable.
Click to expand...

I challenge Robert Prey to produce, using only the tools identified by Birther pseudo-experts, a PDF 1.3 document, and instructions for creating it, that Adobe Acrobate Professional recognizes as having layers. Robert says I'm wrong. Robert says his pseudo-experts know what they're talking about. Robert says a PDF 1.3 document can have layers.

Time for him to show me.
 
Last edited:
JayUtah said:
I challenge Robert Prey to produce, using only the tools identified by Birther pseudo-experts, a PDF 1.3 document, and instructions for creating it, that Adobe Acrobate Professional recognizes as having layers. Robert says I'm wrong. Robert says his pseudo-experts know what they're talking about. Robert says a PDF 1.3 document can have layers.

Time for him to show me.
Click to expand...

LOL, would that be Acrobat? Do I get a T-shirt? How exactly does one "Acrobate"? Hopefully some foolery with the other gender is involved. Trapezes may be involved.

I jest. :D
You will get no meaningful answer. Unless you really like baloney.
 
Here is the Obama PDF with only the binary streams replaced with the token "{binary}". Robert, please identify the layers you say are in there, and/or the layers you say are referred to in the Acrobat help text you keep citing.

Code: 
%PDF-1.3
%{binary}
4 0 obj
<< /Length 5 0 R /Filter /FlateDecode >>
stream
{binary}
endstream
endobj
5 0 obj
310
endobj
2 0 obj
<< /Type /Page /Parent 3 0 R /Resources 6 0 R /Contents 4 0 R /MediaBox [0 0 612 792]
>>
endobj
6 0 obj
<< /ProcSet [ /PDF /ImageB /ImageC /ImageI ] /ColorSpace << /Cs2 26 0 R /Cs1
11 0 R >> /XObject << /Im7 20 0 R /Im8 22 0 R /Im9 24 0 R /Im2 9 0 R /Im4
14 0 R /Im1 7 0 R /Im6 18 0 R /Im3 12 0 R /Im5 16 0 R >> >>
endobj
20 0 obj
<< /Length 21 0 R /Type /XObject /Subtype /Image /Width 34 /Height 70 /ImageMask
true /BitsPerComponent 1 /Filter /FlateDecode >>
stream
{binary}
endstream
endobj
21 0 obj
173
endobj
22 0 obj
<< /Length 23 0 R /Type /XObject /Subtype /Image /Width 243 /Height 217 /ImageMask
true /BitsPerComponent 1 /Filter /FlateDecode >>
stream
{binary}
endstream
endobj
23 0 obj
671
endobj
24 0 obj
<< /Length 25 0 R /Type /XObject /Subtype /Image /Width 132 /Height 142 /ImageMask
true /BitsPerComponent 1 /Filter /FlateDecode >>
stream
{binary}
endstream
endobj
25 0 obj
344
endobj
9 0 obj
<< /Length 10 0 R /Type /XObject /Subtype /Image /Width 1454 /Height 1819
/ImageMask true /BitsPerComponent 1 /Filter /FlateDecode >>
stream
{binary}
endstream
endobj
8 0 obj
299366
endobj
18 0 obj
<< /Length 19 0 R /Type /XObject /Subtype /Image /Width 47 /Height 216 /ImageMask
true /BitsPerComponent 1 /Filter /FlateDecode >>
stream
{binary}
endstream
endobj
19 0 obj
436
endobj
12 0 obj
<< /Length 13 0 R /Type /XObject /Subtype /Image /Width 199 /Height 778 /ImageMask
true /BitsPerComponent 1 /Filter /FlateDecode >>
stream
{binary}
endstream
endobj
13 0 obj
5510
endobj
16 0 obj
<< /Length 17 0 R /Type /XObject /Subtype /Image /Width 123 /Height 228 /ImageMask
true /BitsPerComponent 1 /Filter /FlateDecode >>
stream
{binary}
endstream
endobj
17 0 obj
633
endobj
27 0 obj
<< /Length 28 0 R /N 1 /Alternate /DeviceGray /Filter /FlateDecode >>
stream
{binary}
endstream
endobj
28 0 obj
2905
endobj
26 0 obj
[ /ICCBased 27 0 R ]
endobj
29 0 obj
<< /Length 30 0 R /N 3 /Alternate /DeviceRGB /Filter /FlateDecode >>
stream
{binary}
endstream
endobj
30 0 obj
2615
endobj
11 0 obj
[ /ICCBased 29 0 R ]
endobj
3 0 obj
<< /Type /Pages /MediaBox [0 0 612 792] /Count 1 /Kids [ 2 0 R ] >>
endobj
31 0 obj
<< /Type /Catalog /Pages 3 0 R >>
endobj
32 0 obj
()
endobj
33 0 obj
(Mac OS X 10.6.7 Quartz PDFContext)
endobj
34 0 obj
()
endobj
35 0 obj
()
endobj
36 0 obj
(Preview)
endobj
37 0 obj
(D:20110427120924Z00'00')
endobj
38 0 obj
()
endobj
39 0 obj
[ () ]
endobj
1 0 obj
<< /Title 32 0 R /Author 34 0 R /Subject 35 0 R /Producer 33 0 R /Creator
36 0 R /CreationDate 37 0 R /ModDate 37 0 R /Keywords 38 0 R /AAPL:Keywords
39 0 R >>
endobj
xref
0 40
0000000000 65535 f 
0000384220 00000 n 
0000000425 00000 n 
0000383868 00000 n 
0000000022 00000 n 
0000000406 00000 n 
0000000529 00000 n 
0000071333 00000 n 
0000370866 00000 n 
0000002499 00000 n 
0000070646 00000 n 
0000383831 00000 n 
0000371509 00000 n 
0000377185 00000 n 
0000070668 00000 n 
0000071313 00000 n 
0000377206 00000 n 
0000378005 00000 n 
0000370888 00000 n 
0000371489 00000 n 
0000000755 00000 n 
0000001092 00000 n 
0000001112 00000 n 
0000001949 00000 n 
0000001969 00000 n 
0000002479 00000 n 
0000381055 00000 n 
0000378025 00000 n 
0000381034 00000 n 
0000381092 00000 n 
0000383810 00000 n 
0000383951 00000 n 
0000384001 00000 n 
0000384020 00000 n 
0000384072 00000 n 
0000384091 00000 n 
0000384110 00000 n 
0000384136 00000 n 
0000384178 00000 n 
0000384197 00000 n 
trailer
<< /Size 40 /Root 31 0 R /Info 1 0 R /ID [ <d6fc2758ceb2f98f54abce9a4b28fc1c>
<d6fc2758ceb2f98f54abce9a4b28fc1c> ] >>
startxref
384395
%%EOF
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Share this page

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom