The Odd Lies of Paul Ryan

[Puppycow]

Thank you for admitting to the smear tactics.

Ryan is merely being subjected to the same level of scrutiny that all candidates for president or vice president go through.

 

[Kaosium]

Kaosium, if we accept your thesis that "everything he said is true", do you believe it's OK for people to say things that are technically true but said in such a way as they they will clearly mislead people who take the statements at face value?

The only ones 'misled' were the ones that wanted to be so they could pretend he was 'lying.'

The plant was closing because of tough times, Obama went there and made a speech about government being able to help and the plant could be there in a hundred years. He got elected president, he actually ended up with leverage over GM--and Janesville got forgotten.

Obama didn't have to go to Janesville, he didn't have to say what he did, he didn't have to forget about it when he had the chance.

Attempting to parse that rather tame illustration of the 'recovery' we're in for inferences that could be 'misleading' to call Ryan a 'liar' is fundamentally dishonest.

However it's a great misdirection technique.

 

[Moss]

Kaosium, I think you are unfair towards FactCheck. A bit of looking around would have revealed that they have no particular bias for or against a candidate.

 

[Kaosium]

Kaosium, I think you are unfair towards FactCheck. A bit of looking around would have revealed that they have no particular bias for or against a candidate.

My experience has been limited, earlier on in this campaign season I didn't have much reason to doubt them. Now I do. They can regain my greater confidence with a retraction and an apology.

 

[Kaosium]

Truth is never a smear. Ever.

What YOU are doing now, however, is grossly dishonest and very much a smear.

No Ben, it is not. Going through everything someone has said and (judging by the technique used so far) seeing if it can be twisted into a 'lie' is the epitome of smear tactics.

 

[Kaosium]

Ryan is merely being subjected to the same level of scrutiny that all candidates for president or vice president go through.

That's not what it looks like to me, they're trying to 'brand' him, they even have a catchy name 'lyin' Ryan' all thought up and everything! All it then takes is to throw any accusation they can in hopes of something sticking.

 

[BenBurch]

If you twist it, it is no longer truth.

Let's just pick one.

How is grossly lying about your time running a race not a lie? He was not off by minutes, he was off by HOURS.

And in your case, the person you are smearing with your lies is ME, and I expect an apology.

 

[Puppycow]

The only ones 'misled' were the ones that wanted to be so they could pretend he was 'lying.'

The plant was closing because of tough times, Obama went there and made a speech about government being able to help and the plant could be there in a hundred years. He got elected president, he actually ended up with leverage over GM--and Janesville got forgotten.

Obama didn't have to go to Janesville, he didn't have to say what he did, he didn't have to forget about it when he had the chance.

Attempting to parse that rather tame illustration of the 'recovery' we're in for inferences that could be 'misleading' to call Ryan a 'liar' is fundamentally dishonest.

However it's a great misdirection technique.

The Janesville plant may have closed, but over a million other workers have jobs today as a result of the auto bailout. And George Bush deserves some of that credit too. And even Paul Ryan because he voted for the bill he badmouths now.

A Million Jobs

The American economy was terrifyingly close to the brink in 2008 and 2009, and the impending collapse of General Motors and Chrysler threatened to be the final push. When the companies begged the federal government to save them from financial catastrophe, President George W. Bush and later President Obama ignored strong Republican objections, saving a signature American industry and the whole country from an even deeper crash.

Four years later, there are 1.45 million people who are working as a direct result of the $80 billion bailout, according to the nonpartisan Center for Automotive Research, both at the carmakers and associated businesses downstream in the economy. Michigan’s unemployment level is at its lowest level in three years. G.M. is again the world’s biggest automaker, and both companies are reporting substantial profits.

 

[Kaosium]

If you twist it, it is no longer truth.

Let's just pick one.

How is grossly lying about your time running a race not a lie? He was not off by minutes, he was off by HOURS.

I though it was the difference of an hour or so? If that's correct are you a LIAR p) for getting it wrong?

And in your case, the person you are smearing with your lies is ME, and I expect an apology.

For what? I thanked you for the information! What you said is exactly how a particular type of smear is done! You didn't say you were doing it, (did you?) just that it was being done. That's useful information.

Now, if your friends come back and issue a 'fact check' that says Ryan was a remarkably straightforward politician then I might just owe your friends an apology.

However we both know that isn't very damned likely to happen. If they can't find anything they'll start on something else, or maybe move on to Romney.

 

[icerat]

The only ones 'misled' were the ones that wanted to be so they could pretend he was 'lying.'

The plant was closing because of tough times, Obama went there and made a speech about government being able to help and the plant could be there in a hundred years. He got elected president, he actually ended up with leverage over GM--and Janesville got forgotten.

Maybe so, but I don't think Obama gained any leverage over the past.

Or are you suggesting that Obama should have somehow forced GM to reopen the plant after he became President?

 

[Mike!]

Can you imagine how this would play out if it were Obama?

It'd be ignored like his book full of Frankenstein people was/is.

 

[Kaosium]

The Janesville plant may have closed, but over a million other workers have jobs today as a result of the auto bailout. And George Bush deserves some of that credit too. And even Paul Ryan because he voted for the bill he badmouths now.

A Million Jobs

I think the bailout of GM was a good idea, I thought the one for Chrysler was a good idea in the Seventies too.

 

[Kaosium]

Maybe so, but I don't think Obama gained any leverage over the past.

Or are you suggesting that Obama should have somehow forced GM to reopen the plant after he became President?

Did you read that article I posted? The Rockford reporter that was there and followed the issue? Obama didn't have to go to Janesville and say that, and Ryan didn't exactly spend all night on it or make damning accusations, he just kinda used it to illustrate the nature of the recovery. Trying to crucify Ryan over it is lame.

 

[Puppycow]

Yeah, 'technically' what Ryan said is the truth.

Kaosium, if we accept your thesis that "everything he said is true", do you believe it's OK for people to say things that are technically true but said in such a way as they they will clearly mislead people who take the statements at face value?

I wonder what Kaosium thinks of the Priorities USA Action anti-Romney attack ad featuring Joe Soptic. The Romney campaign complained about it mightily, calling it dishonest. Fact Checkers also agreed that is was dishonest:

Other fact-checkers have examined the ad and found little if any evidence to support the suggestion that Romney is to blame. FactCheck.org called it misleading. CNN said it was "not accurate." Glenn Kessler, the Washington Post FactChecker, gave it four Pinocchios saying it "stretches the bounds of common sense and decency."

The same fact checkers that Kaosium is now complaining about.
Even I think it was a low blow, and yet nothing in the ad was "technically" untrue. He never actually said that Romney killed his wife. The ad just gave that general impression. It seems if we applied Kaosium's standards, however, the ad would pass muster.

Without ever saying so directly, the ad leaves a very clear impression that Romney’s actions led to the premature death of Soptic’s wife.

 

[icerat]

Did you read that article I posted? The Rockford reporter that was there and followed the issue? Obama didn't have to go to Janesville and say that, and Ryan didn't exactly spend all night on it or make damning accusations, he just kinda used it to illustrate the nature of the recovery. Trying to crucify Ryan over it is lame.

If that was the only false or misleading statement then I agree, "crucifixion" is a bit harsh.

The truth is he's not being crucified over just the one false or misleading statement.

 

[Scott Sommers]

I have finished a marathon. I was a finisher in the 1989 Sakura Asahi Keno Marathon in Chiba, Japan. I finished in 4 hours and 26 minutes.

Just for comparison's sake, someone finishing the 2000 Boston Marathon http://www.marathonguide.com/results/browse.cfm?MIDD=15000417
in 3:00:00 would place 1263 overall and 881 in the Men's Open Division.
in 4:00:00 would finish 11025 overall and 3629 in the Men's Open Division.

In 1990, this would have been far more dramatic and in a local marathon, such as the 1990 Grandma’s Marathon in Duluth, Minnesota, a 3-hour finish would make someone in the top finishers.

A sub-3 hour marathon makes one an elite athlete. It's kind of like claiming you played in the NBA when you only played high school varsity, or that one has a PhD when they really only had a BA. Does it matter for the VP of the USA? I guess we're going to find out.

 

[carlitos]

Exaggerating one's sports accomplishments seems to be something of a tradition for politicians. Anybody remember John Kerry claiming that he once ran the Boston Marathon?

That was beyond the pale. And anyone who "ran" a marathon in over 4 hours can really just stop talking about it.

 

[NoahFence]

An exaggeration about running when he was twenty is important because? What does this have to do with anything?

It speaks pretty good about his character. Or lack thereof.

 

[NoahFence]

Truth is never a smear. Ever.

What YOU are doing now, however, is grossly dishonest and very much a smear.

Ditto.

Hilarious watching the spin from the right on this. Lyin' Ryan's got no chance.

 

[NoahFence]

My experience has been limited, earlier on in this campaign season I didn't have much reason to doubt them. Now I do. They can regain my greater confidence with a retraction and an apology.