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Julian Assange: rapist or not?

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Well, I'd like to thank UndercoverElephant for demonstrating that the pro-Assange wing is made up of irrational conspiracy theorists. He now goes on ignore, and I will recommend that his participation in this thread is split into its own thread in the conspiracy theories forum.
 
You don't know me, eirik. Firstly, I'm not a "leftist." I'm actually a radical green.

Then you are leftist. I'm not surprised that you don't know what leftist means. It doesn't mean marxist.

And secondly I'm not a liar. I'm actually known for honestly expressing views that other people would expect me to keep quiet about, or lie about.

Firstly; Lol. Secondly, you are indeed peddling falshoods, and refuse to inform yourself. Sad, really.

That includes a profound distrust and dislike of almost everything that comes out of the United States of America. I'm not a marxist, but I am very much anti-American. It is therefore not a surprise that I support Assange for political reasons. I am not hiding this.

Yes, you seem oddly proud of judging rape cases for political reasons.


Back on topic, I will re-iterate my point: nearly everybody I have encountered peddling anti-Assange propaganda in recent days is a right-winger who hates Assange and wants to see him in US custody. They will claim that their opinions are being driven by their dislike of rapists, when in reality they just want to see Assange silenced, and punished for what he has already done.

You assume wrong. I don't "hate" Assange for political reasons, I didn't really care about wikileaks or Assange as it didn't reveal anything we didn't know prior. It has had no impact on me or anybody I know.

I do resent him for running from rape charges and using his acolytes to drum up conspiracy theories to slander the victims.

There are also two other, smaller groups of people supporting the propaganda. One lot are Swedes who are indignant about what is being said about the Swedish justice system. The other lot are radical feminists who are using this case to highlight their general beliefs about men and attitudes to rape (they are upset about people like George Galloway dismissing the rape allegations as ridiculous, regardless of the fact that in this particular case they really are ridiculous. This is just wrong-headed. You do not help genuine rape victims by taking politically-motivated rape allegations seriously.)

You don't read news papers do you? He really has no support left after he ran from Sweden. The only ones left are fringe leftist acolytes like yourself.
 
It is an attempted character assassination. He's telling people that ten years ago I said some rather anti-American things in response to WTC attacks. I've been saying anti-American things before and since also. I'm not entirely sure what this has to do with my comments in this thread about the Julian Assange case. He's just making sure that everybody knows that UE doesn't like the US very much.

Did you actually cheer when the twin towers collapsed?
 
OK, I see where this is going. If these are the allegations, then they will come down to one person's word against another person's word. No evidence is possible to prove what happened, and the case should be dropped.

If you're going to accuse somebody of rape, you require some sort of evidence. In this case, we know for a fact that the woman in question took the "rapist" in question to a party the next evening, and recommended her friend to have sex with him. Now we are supposed to believe the same person when she makes an allegation of rape?? If we are fools, we will believe her.

That is a disgusting attitude, one I am happy is not shared by decent people here and abroad.
 
You assume wrong. I don't "hate" Assange for political reasons, I didn't really care about wikileaks or Assange as it didn't reveal anything we didn't know prior. It has had no impact on me or anybody I know.

I do resent him for running from rape charges and using his acolytes to drum up conspiracy theories to slander the victims.

This is pretty much my view as well, except perhaps that I did care a bit about Wikileaks, and I thought it was good that there were people with balls enough to publish stuff nobody else would. I'm not so sure how much that was really news though.

I'm pretty much mainstream when it comes to my political views. I'm quite green and care about the environment. That doesn't mean I support extreme animal-rights groups like PETA and similar groups at home. I'm social liberal and believe in fair treatment no matter who you are (including Julian Assange). I believe there needs to be a social safety net in order to help the weaker in society, and I believe those better off should pay for this.

It's basically these views that make me want Assange to give himself up. Everyone should be equal before the law. It's my skeptical side that rejects all conspiracy theories Assange-sycophants dream up about this case. I am quite appalled that so many people that I thought were skeptics have turned out to be nothing but conspiracy theorists just because their golden boy is against the ropes.
 
What exactly are you getting at?
How UndercoverElephant cheered the 9/11 attacks, because the US didn't ratify the Kyoto treaty and "anti-scientific/pseudo-scientific nonsense of the US religious right".

But yanking a wanted rapist from an embassy is off limits!

Compare/contrast.
 
How UndercoverElephant cheered the 9/11 attacks, because the US didn't ratify the Kyoto treaty and "anti-scientific/pseudo-scientific nonsense of the US religious right".

But yanking a wanted rapist from an embassy is off limits!

Compare/contrast.

Seriously?
 
Seriously?
Yes.

Embassies are sacrosanct, but it's OK to snuff out the lives of thousands if you don't like the religious views of some of their countrymen.

IOW, UEs defense of Assange has absolutely nothing to do with the merits of the case but with his deep-rooted and irrational hatred of the USA. And you won't be able to reason him out of a position he didn't reason himself into.
 
Yes.

Embassies are sacrosanct, but it's OK to snuff out the lives of thousands if you don't like the religious views of some of their countrymen.

IOW, UEs defense of Assange has absolutely nothing to do with the merits of the case but with his deep-rooted and irrational hatred of the USA. And you won't be able to reason him out of a position he didn't reason himself into.

Well, the hilited part is obvious, but I just find it hard to grasp that anyone not actually a terrorist themselves would cheer the 9/11 attacks.
 
I said nothing of the sort. What I said was that in some (many) cases, it come down to one person's word against another. That is not condoning rape. It is admitting that sometimes there is insufficient evidence for a third party to come to a valid conclusion about what actually happened.



I'm saying that if it is only the victim's word then we are in very dangerous territory indeed, because it leaves the door wide open for malicious, fallacious rape allegations. It is an open invitation for women to use accusations of rape in order to pursue a personal vendetta against someone. It does not follow that every time it comes down to one person's word against another, that it wasn't rape. Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. All I'm saying is that you can't convict somebody for a serious offence like this when all you've got is the word of a victim who may actually be making malicious, false allegations.



Oh yes it does. If somebody has just had sex with somebody, and did not believe it was rape, then they cannot change their mind and decide it was rape several days later.

If you are being raped, then you know you are being raped. If somebody wakes you up by having sex with you then you must decide at the point you wake up whether or not this action is acceptable. You can't decide it was rape several days later.



...and Julian Assange is a rapist.

Your propaganda does not fool me. You can try as hard as you like to present me as a conspiracy-theorist nutjob. The truth is that this is a real conspiracy to get Assange into US custody.

Some conspiracy theories turn out to be real. This is one of them. Another one is the fact that the US government is rigging the precious metals markets, just as it condoned the rigging of LIBOR.

You just presented your self a a conspiracy nutjob.
 
Yes, it's powerful propaganda, is it not?

I'm sorry, but for all the propaganda in the world, YOU DO NOT THREATEN TO STORM AN EMBASSY IN ORDER TO GET HOLD OF A PERSON WHO IS WANTED FOR QUESTIONING ABOUT HAVING CONSENSUAL SEX WITHOUT ASKING TO USE A CONDOM FIRST, OR WAKING SOMEBODY UP BY HAVING SEX WITH THEM WHEN YOU ALREADY HAD CONSENSUAL SEX WITH THEM THE PREVIOUS NIGHT.

BUT...you may well threaten to storm an embassy to get hold of a person who has published the most damaging leaked material in US history.

I'm sorry, but when there's this much smoke, then there has to be a fire.

The US has been hoist by its own petard. It wants to have its cake and eat it.

Guantanamo Bay, waterboarding and the treatment of Private Manning are all examples of the US demonstrating to the rest of the world that it is above the law. They are powerful statements to the effect: "We can do whatever we like. Do not mess with the United States, or this is what will happen to you." But at the same time, they also want to be able to get hold of people like Julian Assange via legitimate legal mechanisms and that means questions will be asked about what is likely to happen to Assange should he ever end up in US custody.

The US can't have it both ways. If it wants to be treated like a law-abiding nation then it can't also incarcerate and torture people indefinately, without trial.

When you apologise for calling Undercover Elephant a blowhard windbag screeching hatred.

Unless, of course, you can back up this assertion......

There.
 
Wildcat,

I have been consistently "anti-American", if that is what you mean. My beliefs and attitudes towards the United States go back a long way, and run very deep. It started in my teens (I'm 43), primarily because of two things: the anti-scientific/pseudo-scientific nonsense of the US religious right, and the anti-scientific political response to climate change. Since then, all I've found is other reasons to dislike the United States.

I'm not alone. A significant proportion of the world's population don't exactly like America.

Had I been in Assange's position (having come into the possession of that material) then I would have done exactly the same thing: publish all of it.

Why so would I.
 
Wildcat,

I have been consistently "anti-American", if that is what you mean. My beliefs and attitudes towards the United States go back a long way, and run very deep. It started in my teens (I'm 43), primarily because of two things: the anti-scientific/pseudo-scientific nonsense of the US religious right, and the anti-scientific political response to climate change. Since then, all I've found is other reasons to dislike the United States.

I'm not alone. A significant proportion of the world's population don't exactly like America. Had I been in Assange's position (having come into the possession of that material) then I would have done exactly the same thing: publish all of it.

Statements you disagree with? Check.

Blowhard windbag screeching hatred? Nope.

No retraction. I believe your posts display an irrational hatred of Assange. Sue me.

Someone has an irrational hate.
 
I really hope you never have the occasion to know how awful rape is.

I truly do.

Because women I have known who were raped were almost universally scarred by the experience, in ways that you might not be able to imagine.

JJ's a guy.
 
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