Moderated Obama birth certificate CT / SSN CT / Birther discussion

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Robert Prey said:
The public release of tax records is not a requirement to hold office, but the all seeing eye knows all about his taxes.
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But he has been accused of serious federal crimes. All he needs to clear is name of those allegations is to release his tax returns. Why hasn't he done so? Clearly its because it will show the allegations to be correct. Logic 101.
 
Robert Prey said:
The "legal obligations" -- whatever that means -- have nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that neither the State of Hawaii, nor Ant Pogo, nor Jay Utah have ever been able to prove that the COLB is an exact copy of a Birth certificate held in the files of the State of Hawaii.. You can't do it because the Dept.of Health refuses to allow the original to be viewed. And Obama refuses to give such permission by reason of the simple fact that a bona fide Birth Certificate simply does not exist. If it did exist, it would long ago have been produced. Logic 101.
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Once again you sidestepped the point in order to try more well-poisoning.

First, you shift the burden of proof. Presumption is always on the side of authenticity; forgery must be proven. You cannot do it, despite your parade of wannabes masquerading as experts. You know this, from the JFK discussion. You simply choose to ignore it. This is especially true (albeit moot) when a Constitutionally-valid certification from the appropriate officer has been issued, is in force, and has been noted by the relevant federal election authority. You simply have no clue what Full Faith and Credit means.

Second, you don't make the rules for how vital records are authenticated and certified for federal elections. Pretending that only your idea of proof is valid is deceptive and self-serving. You simply don't get to invent new rules for elections just because you don't like the incumbent.

Third, the laws of the state of Hawaii cannot be set aside simply because you want them to be, or on the whim of some official, or even by the subject of the record. You have failed utterly to address any of that legal analysis, and everyone can see your failure.

Fourth, you continue to simply invent out of whole cloth a legal, moral, and evidentiary landscape that bears no resemblance to reality. You have been challenged on each and every one of these points, and your defense of them in each case ends in "Baloney." You clearly have no defense.

With regard to your "Logic 101" quip, please define "affirmation of the consequent" and explain how your argument, "The only reason Obama doesn't order the release of his original birth certificate is because it doesn't exist," fails to satisfy that definition. Prove you are the logician you claim to be.
 
Mr Prey you have been shown to have no credible evidence whatsoever for your contentions.
 
And Mr Prey if you are genuinly worried about the birth place of your presidents why are you not calling fro the birth certificates of the following to be examined too:

Jimmy Carter
George Bush Senior
Bill Clinton
george Bush junior
 
Robert Prey said:
The original on microfilm.
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There can be no such thing. You can either refer to the original paper record, of you can refer to a microfilm copy of it, which copy would be subject to all the absurd Birther questions of authenticity as any other copy yet produced and certified. It appears you really don't know what you want, and haven't really given this much thought.

This is a common factor in conspiracism. Whenever a conspiracist is asked what would convince him otherwise, the answer is always, "Whatever we don't have right now." Always that answer, regardless of the strength of existing proof. Always, "We need X+1."
 
Multivac said:
Why on Earth would you think that you are entitled to see his college transcripts? What possible relevance does it have to his ability to run the US?
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If I follow the 'logic' correctly, RP thinks that Obama claimed foreign birth during college to receive scholarships from certain programs. So no relevance to his ability to run the US, but just more imagined evidence of his foreign birth.
 
Bob001 said:
What microfilm? Officials copied the actual original document from a bound ledger in the vital records office. Why would an image from microfilm be better?
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It´s another line of defense. He´ll get, at the minimum, months´ or years´ worth of accusing Obama of being ineligible, just from demanding the microfilm. And if he does get it, THEN he´ll want to see the original document, for another months´ or years´ worth of false accusations against Obama.

After all, nobody demanded to see the microfilm before Obama had produced the birth certificate online.
 
I shall ask Sheriff Joe to take time off from his supposed day job of enforcing the law and investigating crime, to allow him to investigate whether Jimmy Carters, George Bush sernior and junors, Bill Clintons birth certificates are genuine.
 
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JayUtah said:
There can be no such thing. You can either refer to the original paper record, of you can refer to a microfilm copy of it, which copy would be subject to all the absurd Birther questions of authenticity as any other copy yet produced and certified. It appears you really don't know what you want, and haven't really given this much thought.
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See? THEY CAN'T PRODUCE THE ORIGINAL ON MICROFILM!

:duck:
 
cwalner said:
If I follow the 'logic' correctly, RP thinks that Obama claimed foreign birth during college to receive scholarships from certain programs. So no relevance to his ability to run the US, but just more imagined evidence of his foreign birth.
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There are other charges that Obama really did not attend the schools he said he did. Basically the Birthers consistently betray their motives. Under the pretense of questioning his eligibility as President (which would ordinarily be a nonpartisan concern if there were any credible evidence), they question everything about him whether it's relevant to his presidency or not. Even our own Robert Prey has frankly admitted he thinks Obama is a universal fraud. When the pretext doesn't match the actions, this raises the likelihood of partisanship rather than a legitimate concern for the country.
 
BadBoy said:
He is not a member of the house of lords and has been asked to stop using the title and using the House of Lords Insignia. Hes an idiot
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Indeed, thanks; I failed to consult Burke's Peerage before styling him questionably. As with many aspirants, it appears Monckton desires to use fringe theorism and conspiracism as stepping stones to the recognition he believes he deserves. I've dealt with the (lack of) merit of Monckton's claims previously. But to say he is deserving of some additional credibility or authority on the subject of Obama's birth because he is a peer is a truly fallacious appeal to authority.

sts60 said:
And yet the birthers lap him up eagerly...
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I see a political and ideological parallel between the Birthers, who draw strictly from the arch-conservative extreme of American politics, and the Loyalists during the American Colonial and Revolutionary periods. Hence to me it doesn't seem very out of place for them to fawn over titles and royalty.

...refusing to acknowledge the majority of voting Americans in the last election - is just another charming example.
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Well indeed the landslide outcome of the last presidential election is an historical fact beyond dispute. That's why the Birthers have to try something else. Even if the vast majority of American voters elect a person as President, he can still be removed or challenged if he is ineligible. The will of the majority does not trump the Constitution.

However the Constitution has already spoken. President Obama's birthplace has been affirmed, ascertained, and certified according to the means prescribed by law and by the precedents of American federalism. There remains no legally valid question about his eligibility. This is why the Birthers have to frantically try the case in the media instead, making up all sorts of new rules they say have to be satisfied. Sorry, America does work that way. We don't take our cues from faux foreign nobles and we don't let disgruntled political extremists wag the dog.
 
Ladewig said:
I'll go one step further, I am pretty sure not there is even a single fictional astrophysicist who subscribes to that theory. Not Samantha Carter, not Lt.Com. Spock, not Rodney McKay, not Rodney McKay's sister, not even Mirror Universe Spock.
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Aww, mirror universe Spock had the cool goatee and everything.
 
Apparently Romney, visiting Michigan today, joked about being born in a local hospital and said nobody had ever asked him for his birth certificate. Maybe somebody should -- and if he produces it proclaim it an obvious forgery. (I think he was born in Tijuana and smuggled across the border in a bundle of magic Mormon underwear.)
 
OK, how about this.

What if Congress were to pass a law saying whoever exposes the president as a fraud gets to become president?

Would you prefer Sheriff Joe or Donald "Of Course I got Class" Trump?
 
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