Moderated Obama birth certificate CT / SSN CT / Birther discussion

[Mojo]

There is no way the birther issue is going to have any relevance to The Anointed One's re-election. Even the GOP base is largely brainwashed. But my interest is exposing this monumental fraud of a Presidential Imposter. It has been said that the assassination of JFK was the Crime of the Century -- the 20th Century. But this unprecedented fraud has to rank as The Crime of the 21st.

A crime for which there is no evidence.

 

[Tomtomkent]

There is no way the birther issue is going to have any relevance to The Anointed One's re-election. Even the GOP base is largely brainwashed. But my interest is exposing this monumental fraud of a Presidential Imposter. It has been said that the assassination of JFK was the Crime of the Century -- the 20th Century. But this unprecedented fraud has to rank as The Crime of the 21st.

So you would rank this above the allegations of count tampering in Florida, the 9/11 attacks, the Mumbai attacks, 7/7 and Dr Harrold Shipman?

 

[Border Reiver]

How utterly predictable you guys are. You can't even cite a single point, so you throw up your hands, and retreat. Game, Set, Match.

Speaking of retreating, you still owe us an actual answer to your assertions on rights in the US politics forum. Try to provide reasons for your position.

 

[tsig]

Thus far, there is nothing in this thread that refutes the evidence presented in Sheriff Joe's July 27 press conference. You criticize me for not slogging through 129 pages of previous brainwash on this board, but I doubt if you or anyone else has actually heard the entire July 27 press conference. What has happened before posted on this board is irrelevant to me and everyone else because prior to Sheriff Joe's involvement, there was no investigation by law enforcement. Also, prior to Sheriff' Joe's July 27 Press Conference, I was not a believer in the the Birth Certificate fraud, but squarely on the fence. Now perhaps you could for once leave your Ad Hominems aside, and try to discuss the evidence. That would be something new.

Originally Posted by Dcdrac View Post
From what I have seen on this thread there has been stacks of evidenc presented to you which you have either ignored or not bother to ready.

Good. So name one.

Since you've already dismissed all the evidence why should anyone bother to present it again?

 

[A'isha]

Thus far, there is nothing in this thread that refutes the evidence presented in Sheriff Joe's July 27 press conference.

There was no evidence presented at Shurf Joe's July 27 press conference.

 

[Biscuit]

There is no way the birther issue is going to have any relevance to The Anointed One's re-election. Even the GOP base is largely brainwashed. But my interest is exposing this monumental fraud of a Presidential Imposter. It has been said that the assassination of JFK was the Crime of the Century -- the 20th Century. But this unprecedented fraud has to rank as The Crime of the 21st.

The true crime is the GOP who sits by and watches as the anointed one rapes lady liberty. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Ladewig]

Also, prior to Sheriff' Joe's July 27 Press Conference, I was not a believer in the the Birth Certificate fraud, but squarely on the fence. Now perhaps you could for once leave your Ad Hominems aside, and try to discuss the evidence. That would be something new.

And the hits keep on coming.

Having Sheriff Joe's press conference move you from undecided to concerned about birth certificate fraud is not something to brag about.

 

[332nd]

There is no way the birther issue is going to have any relevance to The Anointed One's re-election. Even the GOP base is largely brainwashed. But my interest is exposing this monumental fraud of a Presidential Imposter. It has been said that the assassination of JFK was the Crime of the Century -- the 20th Century. But this unprecedented fraud has to rank as The Crime of the 21st.

Really? You count a faked document by a legally elected president as a greater crime than the murder of 3000+ that sparked two wars & cost billions (trillions?) of dollars? Why?

 

[elbe]

There is no way the birther issue is going to have any relevance to The Anointed One's re-election. Even the GOP base is largely brainwashed. But my interest is exposing this monumental fraud of a Presidential Imposter. It has been said that the assassination of JFK was the Crime of the Century -- the 20th Century. But this unprecedented fraud has to rank as The Crime of the 21st.

...No... I don't buy it. I think it's all fear. To many, probably most of the birthers, it seems to be fear of a black man in power. To some it's just fear of the "other guys", the same sort of thing that drove the Vince Foster rumours. I haven't seen very much to make me think otherwise, and your protestations are not helping your cause.

 

[JayUtah]

Typical Jay Utah response. He can't argue the substance of the evidence, so he ad hominems the messenger. Predictable.

Once again you fail to understand the mechanism of expert testimony.

The Birthers -- you emphatically included -- put forward Mara Zebest as an expert. And based on that alleged expertise, she purports to have attributed observations in the PDF file to circumstances and actions she alleges to have happened, summing up to a case for forgery. However the strength of that opinion rests entirely on her ability to know how the underlying sciences and tools work, and what globally is possible in the field. She has amply proven she doesn't know what she's talking about. Absent that, she is no more authoritative than a layman in her opinion that forgery caused what she sees in the PDF.

Stomp and whine all you want, Robert, but there is not a court in this land that accepts Mara Zebest as an expert in the relevant fields. And the Birthers have tried repeatedly. You still haven't been able to name the court where she first failed voir dire, so it's clear you haven't researched her background enough to know whether she is the expert you claim and therefore whether the expert opinion she offers means anything. Yet you insist that we take her opinion at face value.

Here's a hint: counsel for Obama didn't even show up. The Birthers moved to have the case decided on its merits rather than accept default judgment in their favor. They lost the case, and in the process Zebest was rejected as an expert. How flimsy and unconvincing does expert testimony have to be in order to be ruled against without the opponent even being present? Zebest failed voir dire without even having been subjected to cross examination.

Sorry, incompetent testimony doesn't get to be evidence. It's not ad hominem at all to show that witnesses who purport to be experts are not, and that their expert testimony is not expert at all. You've never understood this, which is one of the reasons no one takes you seriously.

 

[gnome]

Since RP says it is the press conference that brought him certainty on this issue, and that he was not interested before, I'm willing to dive into it and see where we can go.

This could come in handy: A transcript of the press conference.

http://qx7.us/arpaio-presentation.pdf

Starting by listing the thesis:

A. Primary claim: Forgery and fraud committed in Obama's long form birth certificate. (Lines 60-62).
B. Primary claim: Fraud committed regarding Obama's Selective Service registration card. (Lines 63-64).
C. Conclusion: "I cannot in good faith report to you that these documents are authentic." (Lines 65-66).

And now, specific claims:

1. Arapio: The long form birth certificate was manufactured electronically and did not originate in paper format as claimed by the White House. (Lines 67-70)

2. Zullo: The document presented on April 27, 2011 by the White House never existed in paper form. (Lines 100-101)

3. Zullo: OCR is not a sufficient explanation for the layers apparent in the White House supplied PDF. (Lines 116-204)

4. Zullo: We were unable to reproduce anomalies in the file released by the white house, and this led us to conclude the document was manufactured. (Lines 206-209)

5. Zullo: Document Optimization is not sufficient explanation for the anomalies apparent in the White House supplied PDF (Lines 219-267)

6. Zullo: The small number of links and layers on a complex document such as the long form birth certificate are indications of human involvement in putting the document together. "A computer will not randomly do what it does on Obama's birth certificate". (Line 269-277)

7. Zullo: The white outlines that emerge around the registrar's stamp when moving it demonstrate that the green safety paper background was the last item applied to the PDF. (Line 279-289)

8. Zullo: The fact that layers 4, 5, 6 and 7 of the PDF document all deal exclusively with stamp information casts doubt on the theory that the layering was a result of a random computer process. (Lines 327-334)

9. Zullo: The fact that the registrar's stamp and date stamp appear in independent layers means that they were brought in from unknown sources and placed in the document to give the appearance of legal certification. (Lines 335-341)

10: Zullo: None of the "proclaimed computer experts" claiming to be able to replicate the layers in Obama's long form birth certificate has been able to duplicate the effect of being able to move the registrar's stamp and date stamp in one solid piece. (Lines 342-347)

11: Zullo: The most important evidence that the document is a forgery is that the date stamp and registrar's stamp can be moved in their entirety. (Lines 348-355).

12: Zullo: The National Archives provided microfilm copies of INS records depicting every individual coming into the country from overseas. The records for August 1 through August 7 of 1961 were missing from the microfilm. (Lines 381-392)

13. Zullo: The National Archives were asked for a reason these days were missing and have not provided an explanation as of the date of the press conference. (Lines 392-394)

14. Zullo: The missing days in the archive provided prevent ruling out that Obama entered the country from overseas. (Lines 395-398).

15. Zullo: The two-digit year stamp on Obama's Selective Service registration card do not match four examples from that time period that have four-digit years. Two of the four examples are from the same post office where Obama "supposedly" turned in the paperwork. (Lines 410-423).

16. Zullo: If a 2008 PICA stamp is modified to cut out the "20" and the remaining "08" is inverted, it resembles that portion of the card that was made available for review. (Lines 424-430)

17. Zullo: Poor alignment on the year are an indication of human error in cutting and pasting a portion of the image. (Lines 431-439)

18. Zullo: We have identified a person of interest in the forgery of the birth certificate. (Lines 476-480)

19. Arapio: A retired government employee claims that Bill Ayer's mother introduced Obama to him as a foreign student whom they were assisting in getting education for in the united states, and he is willing to come forward. (Lines 596-604)

Are we in agreement that these constitute the factual claims in the press conference upon which their conclusions were based? Have I missed or mis-stated any?

 

[Robrob]

There is no way the birther issue is going to have any relevance to The Anointed One's re-election. Even the GOP base is largely brainwashed. But my interest is exposing this monumental fraud of a Presidential Imposter. It has been said that the assassination of JFK was the Crime of the Century -- the 20th Century. But this unprecedented fraud has to rank as The Crime of the 21st.

Wow...

Zebest failed voir dire without even having been subjected to cross examination.

Wow again...

 

[Regnad Kcin]

How did you manage that?

Manage being ignored by our little friend? A magician never reveals his secret!







Okay, I'll reveal my secret: I've replaced the fine coffee with Folger's crystals.

 

[Ladewig]

Also, prior to Sheriff' Joe's July 27 Press Conference, I was not a believer in the the Birth Certificate fraud, but squarely on the fence.

It has been said that the assassination of JFK was the Crime of the Century -- the 20th Century. But this unprecedented fraud has to rank as The Crime of the 21st.

Yes, I have a question.

So before Sheriff Joe opened his mouth you were on the fence and after the press conference you became convinced that this is "The [sic] Crime of the 21st [century]."

My question is ....
You know what? I don't have a question. I have absolutely no idea what to ask.

 

[Hans]

Yes, I have a question.

So before Sheriff Joe opened his mouth you were on the fence and after the press conference you became convinced that this is "The [sic] Crime of the 21st [century]."

My question is ....
You know what? I don't have a question. I have absolutely no idea what to ask.

I believe a giggle might be appropriate when facing such a 'whopper'

 

[Robert Prey]

Since RP says it is the press conference that brought him certainty on this issue, and that he was not interested before, I'm willing to dive into it and see where we can go.

This could come in handy: A transcript of the press conference.

http://qx7.us/arpaio-presentation.pdf

Starting by listing the thesis:

A. Primary claim: Forgery and fraud committed in Obama's long form birth certificate. (Lines 60-62).
B. Primary claim: Fraud committed regarding Obama's Selective Service registration card. (Lines 63-64).
C. Conclusion: "I cannot in good faith report to you that these documents are authentic." (Lines 65-66).

And now, specific claims:

1. Arapio: The long form birth certificate was manufactured electronically and did not originate in paper format as claimed by the White House. (Lines 67-70)

2. Zullo: The document presented on April 27, 2011 by the White House never existed in paper form. (Lines 100-101)

3. Zullo: OCR is not a sufficient explanation for the layers apparent in the White House supplied PDF. (Lines 116-204)

4. Zullo: We were unable to reproduce anomalies in the file released by the white house, and this led us to conclude the document was manufactured. (Lines 206-209)

5. Zullo: Document Optimization is not sufficient explanation for the anomalies apparent in the White House supplied PDF (Lines 219-267)

6. Zullo: The small number of links and layers on a complex document such as the long form birth certificate are indications of human involvement in putting the document together. "A computer will not randomly do what it does on Obama's birth certificate". (Line 269-277)

7. Zullo: The white outlines that emerge around the registrar's stamp when moving it demonstrate that the green safety paper background was the last item applied to the PDF. (Line 279-289)

8. Zullo: The fact that layers 4, 5, 6 and 7 of the PDF document all deal exclusively with stamp information casts doubt on the theory that the layering was a result of a random computer process. (Lines 327-334)

9. Zullo: The fact that the registrar's stamp and date stamp appear in independent layers means that they were brought in from unknown sources and placed in the document to give the appearance of legal certification. (Lines 335-341)

10: Zullo: None of the "proclaimed computer experts" claiming to be able to replicate the layers in Obama's long form birth certificate has been able to duplicate the effect of being able to move the registrar's stamp and date stamp in one solid piece. (Lines 342-347)

11: Zullo: The most important evidence that the document is a forgery is that the date stamp and registrar's stamp can be moved in their entirety. (Lines 348-355).

12: Zullo: The National Archives provided microfilm copies of INS records depicting every individual coming into the country from overseas. The records for August 1 through August 7 of 1961 were missing from the microfilm. (Lines 381-392)

13. Zullo: The National Archives were asked for a reason these days were missing and have not provided an explanation as of the date of the press conference. (Lines 392-394)

14. Zullo: The missing days in the archive provided prevent ruling out that Obama entered the country from overseas. (Lines 395-398).

15. Zullo: The two-digit year stamp on Obama's Selective Service registration card do not match four examples from that time period that have four-digit years. Two of the four examples are from the same post office where Obama "supposedly" turned in the paperwork. (Lines 410-423).

16. Zullo: If a 2008 PICA stamp is modified to cut out the "20" and the remaining "08" is inverted, it resembles that portion of the card that was made available for review. (Lines 424-430)

17. Zullo: Poor alignment on the year are an indication of human error in cutting and pasting a portion of the image. (Lines 431-439)

18. Zullo: We have identified a person of interest in the forgery of the birth certificate. (Lines 476-480)

19. Arapio: A retired government employee claims that Bill Ayer's mother introduced Obama to him as a foreign student whom they were assisting in getting education for in the united states, and he is willing to come forward. (Lines 596-604)

Are we in agreement that these constitute the factual claims in the press conference upon which their conclusions were based? Have I missed or mis-stated any?

One question at a time, please.

 

[Mashuna]

One question at a time, please.

The question was the last line of the post.

 

[Robert Prey]

Once again you fail to understand the mechanism of expert testimony.

The Birthers -- you emphatically included -- put forward Mara Zebest as an expert. And based on that alleged expertise, she purports to have attributed observations in the PDF file to circumstances and actions she alleges to have happened, summing up to a case for forgery. However the strength of that opinion rests entirely on her ability to know how the underlying sciences and tools work, and what globally is possible in the field. She has amply proven she doesn't know what she's talking about. Absent that, she is no more authoritative than a layman in her opinion that forgery caused what she sees in the PDF.

Stomp and whine all you want, Robert, but there is not a court in this land that accepts Mara Zebest as an expert in the relevant fields. And the Birthers have tried repeatedly. You still haven't been able to name the court where she first failed voir dire, so it's clear you haven't researched her background enough to know whether she is the expert you claim and therefore whether the expert opinion she offers means anything. Yet you insist that we take her opinion at face value.

Here's a hint: counsel for Obama didn't even show up. The Birthers moved to have the case decided on its merits rather than accept default judgment in their favor. They lost the case, and in the process Zebest was rejected as an expert. How flimsy and unconvincing does expert testimony have to be in order to be ruled against without the opponent even being present? Zebest failed voir dire without even having been subjected to cross examination.

Sorry, incompetent testimony doesn't get to be evidence. It's not ad hominem at all to show that witnesses who purport to be experts are not, and that their expert testimony is not expert at all. You've never understood this, which is one of the reasons no one takes you seriously.

Nonsense. Your reluctance to cite the case and provide a link speaks volumes. Nor does it have anything whatsoever to do with the evidence of fraud in the LFBC. Nor prove the validity of the document itself.

 

[Mashuna]

One question at a time, please.

The question was the last line of the post.

 

[Robert Prey]

Governor Ambercrombie's Fruitless Quest

Item: Neil Abercrombie, Hawaii governor drops mission to dispel birthers, prove Obama was born in state
BY ALIYAH SHAHID
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
Saturday, January 22, 2011

http://articles.nydailynews.com/201...ical-hospital-hawaii-governor-president-obama

"Hawaii Gov. Neil Abercrombie is giving up on efforts to squash claims that President Barack Obama wasn't born in his state -- but it's not for lack of trying."

Item: Thursday, January 20th, 2011
Hawiian Reporter

Governor Ambercrombie Fails to prove Obama was Born in Hawaii

http://www.hawaiireporter.com/gov-n...-failed-to-prove-obama-was-born-in-hawaii/123

BY ROBERT PAUL REYES

"President Barack Obama has been unable to dispel the rumors that that he wasn`t born in the United States....
Gov. Neil Abercrombie, who took office in December, told Honolulu`s Star-Advertiser on Tuesday that `our investigation` indicates there is a recording of his birth. 'It actually exists in the archives, written down,' he said.The new Democratic head of the state vowed when he took office that he would do his best to end the debate over Obama`s birth, which began in 2008 during the presidential campaign... To state that "officials have tracked down papers indicating that President Obama was indeed born in Hawaii" falls woefully short of proving that Obama is a citizen of the United States. To claim that "our investigation `indicates there is a recording of his birth" doesn`t mean Jack."

* * *

Based on the above news articles and commentary, the following is a hypthetical imagined conversation between Hawaii Governor Neil Ambercrombie and the Attorney General of Hawaii. Although the conversation is imagined, The remarks concerning Hawiian customs, practices and the law itself are gleaned from Sheriff' Joe's chief investigator, Mike Zullo at Sheriff Joe's July 27 news conference which can be viewed in its entireity at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alVzyfptF80

* * *

Governor Ambercrombie:. Mr. Attorney General, I want to see the original birth certificate of Barack Obama. Lot's of people question its existence and I'd like to assure everyone that the Governor has seen it and it is real so that the controversy does not affect the next election.

Attorney General: Governor, I really wish you wouldn't pursue this. It's a sensitive subject and there are laws about releasing such information including an individual`s birth documentation without the person`s consent.

Gov.: But I'm the Governor of the state of Hawaii, and all I want to do is see the Birth Certificate in order to verify that it exists.

AG: : Governor, I do hope you will keep this confidential, but the real reason I can't show you his Birth Certificate is because, ah well... , we don't exactly have it. All we have is a notation -- a Declaration that someone -- possibly his grandparents -- made about his birth, but no actual Birth Certificate.

Gov: Why his grandparents?

AG: Because the address of the declarer on the notation was the address of his Grandparents and that's the address we've placed on his Certification of Live Birth.

Gov: But how can that be? How can someone make a declaration of a birth that may not have even occurred in Hawaii??

AG: The 1955 Revised Laws which were in effect in 1961 allowed for anyone who claimed to have witnessed a birth, to register that birth. The State of Hawaii accepted testimony of that birth even though unsworn and even though there was no investigative unit to documnent the truth or the accuracy of the unsworn testimony.The law says that any relative or even the person himself can make such a declaration, at any time, whether 6 months or even 60 years after the birth. The idea was to accomodate military families and others who because of employment were stationed outside of Hawaii. We do have a notation of Mr. Obama's Declaration of his birth, but not a birth certifcate.

GOV. Well, then a notation or "Declaration" -- That means it proves he was born in Hawaii, doesn't it?

AG; Ah well, not necessarily. You see, the law provides for such a "declaration" of birth even if the birth occurred outside of Hawaii or even outside of the country. Even an actual Birth Certificate issued by the State of Hawaii only proves that the State has a record of the birth on file, not that the information is necessarily true or accurate. A Hawaiian Birth Certificate is therefore worthless in terms of its evidenciary or probative value. Thus, in order to vet a President, you would have to have some other supporting documentation, such as hospital records.

Gov: So you have a "Notation" that he was born, but you can't prove he was born in Hawaii via a "Declaration???

AG: Exactly.

Gov: But isn't that fraud???

AG: Actually, no. It's the law.

GOV: But what about that Certification of Live Birth document that you released?

AG: Well as it happens, when some of those right wing crazies started to question the citizenship of the President, we were really in a bind. We couldn't very well say that we have a "Declaration" but not a Birth Certificate, which really coudn't prove the President was born here, so in order to quiet things down and prevent a Constitutional crisis, we had to simply make up a document -- a Certification of Live Birth. And it was truthful to the extent that we certainly know he was born someplace, and perhaps even in Hawaii but we could not prove it. So, we had no other choice but to make up the document based on the Declaration somebody -- perhaps his grandparents -- submitted. Governor, as you and I both know, In life, and especially in politics, sometimes you've just got to do what you've got to do. If the truth of this ever got out to the press and the public, it would not only ruin the Presidency, but might be a fatal blow to the Democrat Party as well as the country. Please do not pursue this matter any further. If you do happen to mention anything of what I have told you, I will deny we ever had this conversation or tell the press that you simply misunderstood what I said. Because if this controversy continues and we continue to get pressured from the White House, we may have to create a Long Form Birth Certificate for the President, and that would indeed be totally illegal. So you see why what I have told you must be kept confidential?

Gov: Hmmmm.