Moderated Obama birth certificate CT / SSN CT / Birther discussion

[Robert Prey]

No. The release of vital records to anyone but the subject is unlawful in the state of Hawaii. Hence a request on the part of anyone but the subject of the records to release or examine them is necessarily unlawful.

The request was untimely because the Hawaii Secretary of State had already certified the record.

The request was unauthorized because while the investigators initially stated that they were affiliated with the sheriff's office, they were in fact acting only as private citizens.

All this has been covered at length in the other thread on this topic. You're simply trying to do an end run around all that and start a new debate from the beginning.



No. The subject of a vital record in Hawaii does not have the authority to compel the custodian of those records to allow inspection by third parties. The proper chain of custody is that the custodian will produce a certified copy of the vital record and release it to the subject, who may then do with it what he wants. The same procedure was followed in Obama's case as would be followed in any other case. The Birthers' request that Hawaii should follow some new policy that they devise, and that failure to follow it constitutes de facto evidence of fraud, is inappropriate and absurd.

"The release of vital records to anyone but the subject is unlawful in the state of Hawaii. --

Nothing has to be "released." I sort of doubt that applies to simply viewing the original microfilm of a birth certificate.

Nonetheless, There is no stopping Obama from simply producing his own original copy which for some reason he does not want to do. End of story.

 

[RandFan]

There is no stopping Obama from simply producing his own original copy.

He produced a valid, legal copy. See full faith and credit clause. If duly sworn officials in Hawii says it's legit, it is. End of story.

 

[BazBear]

No. You haven't a clue. "Fulfill any of the conditions???? There is only one condition which any of the millions born in Hawaii could easily fulfill. Just produce the original.

Received by you personally, Robert? LoL No, even if you received a certified (by 40+ witnesses) copy of the original, direct from the registrar, I suspect you'd find another "problem" with it.

 

[thedopefishlives]

"The release of vital records to anyone but the subject is unlawful in the state of Hawaii. --

Nothing has to be "released." I sort of doubt that applies to simply viewing the original microfilm of a birth certificate.

Nonetheless, There is no stopping Obama from simply producing his own original copy which for some reason he does not want to do. End of story.

Two things. First of all, "released" does not necessarily mean "released to the public", it means "shown to ANYONE EXCEPT FOR THOSE LEGALLY ENTITLED TO DO SO." Which, for the microfilm, is whatever they call the department of records in the State of Hawaii. Second, Obama has produced his own original copy. The State of Hawaii has verified that it matches EXACTLY what they have in their records. End of story.

 

[Ladewig]

I still don't get the question. Nor your point. Do you have one?

Ah.. I can answer that.

The point is in red
and the question is in purple.

Really, Mr. Prey? You going to go with the political-suicide theory? You are going to assert that if someone got Obama kicked out of office, then he would be unable to win any elected position? Come, now. You couldn't even get Rush Limbaugh to believe that, so don't try peddling it to us.

Furthermore, even if it would be political suicide, I am fairly confident that if someone overthrew the Obama regime, then that person would fetch in the neighborhood of $100,000 a pop on the speaker circuit. One million dollars for 10 hours of work sounds like a pretty good trade off.

How could anyone believe it would be political suicide? It is rather insulting for you to present that theory to us.

ETA: I am not attacking the Demon Party claim. I have no evidence that the Democrats are not demons. so as far as I am concerned, that assertion stands unchallenged.

But there is evidence that the political suicide claim is too absurd for words.


MORE ETA: I was trying to be helpful by suggesting alternate explanations. I have no idea why you are feigning ignorance.

 

[A'isha]

I sort of doubt that applies to simply viewing the original microfilm of a birth certificate.

It does.

Nonetheless, There is no stopping Obama from simply producing his own original copy which for some reason he does not want to do. End of story.

He did.

 

[JayUtah]

Nothing has to be "released." I sort of doubt that applies to simply viewing the original microfilm of a birth certificate.

It does. The subject of a vital record cannot authorize others to view it in the archive. In fact the subject himself cannot view it in the archive; he can only ask for the archive to make him a copy. And there's no such thing as an "original microfilm." There is the original, and then there is perhaps a microfilmed copy.

Nonetheless, There is no stopping Obama from simply producing his own original copy which for some reason he does not want to do. End of story.

There is no such thing as the "original copy." There is the original, and there is a copy. A copy may be certified as authentic by the issuing authority. The subject may request such a copy, and Barack Obama has done this (twice) and has made it available to several people to examine. A digital version has been placed online for convenience, but not to stand in place of the paper copy, properly certified and witnessed.

All that is within the law to do to certify Obama's birthplace for the purposes of his eligibility to hold the President's office, has been done. The Birthers' arbitrary and idle demands for something else are irrelevant.

 

[Robrob]

No. You haven't a clue. "Fulfill any of the conditions???? There is only one condition which any of the millions born in Hawaii could easily fulfill. Just produce the original.

I'll rephrase that for you in smaller words. He already has.

If birthers really think there is some additional hidden information other than what Obama has already provided then all they have to do is have a birther born in Hawaii provide their own birth data and show it differs from the form Obama has provided.

Simple.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Indeed. When Robert answers "Baloney," that's his admission that he is unable to refute the quoted argument on its merit or points. s/Baloney/I concede your point/g

It's quite sad, really. He can't bear to lose a point in an argument, so when he knows he's lost one he has to pretend he's won it.

Dave

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

The full faith and credit clauses of the Constitution do not apply to citizens and in any case your contention that it does would violate the First Amendment.

If the only thing you birthers want to do is talk, then OK. So far, that's all you've been doing, but what you want to do goes beyond what's protected by the First Amendment.

I love the argument from RP that the GOP and neither house of congress will take up the birther cause because its "political suicide."

It also reveals and astounding lack of confidence in the position.

It's merely a substitute for a another word. [...] Obviously, it means the statements made by the poster are false and when they are false, nothing more need be said but "Baloney".

Baloney.

Hawaii authorities refused to allow investigators to view the original document.

Improper??? Unlawful? It was a completely lawful request. All they had to do is get permission from Obama. Why won't Obama give that permission? What is he afraid of? What is he trying to hide?

Whose fault is, again; Hawaii's or Obama's? You seem confused.

 

[Robert Prey]

Ah.. I can answer that.

The point is in red
and the question is in purple.


How could anyone believe it would be political suicide? It is rather insulting for you to present that theory to us.

ETA: I am not attacking the Demon Party claim. I have no evidence that the Democrats are not demons. so as far as I am concerned, that assertion stands unchallenged.

But there is evidence that the political suicide claim is too absurd for words.


MORE ETA: I was trying to be helpful by suggesting alternate explanations. I have no idea why you are feigning ignorance.

Your question is not a question.

 

[Robert Prey]

Two things. First of all, "released" does not necessarily mean "released to the public", it means "shown to ANYONE EXCEPT FOR THOSE LEGALLY ENTITLED TO DO SO." Which, for the microfilm, is whatever they call the department of records in the State of Hawaii. Second, Obama has produced his own original copy. The State of Hawaii has verified that it matches EXACTLY what they have in their records. End of story.

Factually incorrect. The State of Hawaii has verified nothing.

 

[Robert Prey]

He produced a valid, legal copy. See full faith and credit clause. If duly sworn officials in Hawii says it's legit, it is. End of story.

The authorities in Hawaii have not made any such claim. What you don't seem to understand is that a Hawaii Certificate of Birth is not proof of anything. Not proof of birth in Hawaii, not proof of citizenship. Anyone can make a declaration of birth, even years after the fact, and all the Certificate confirms is that such a declaration has been made. And the declaration is unsworn, the only requirement being that the declarer claims that the parents were legal residents (not citizens) of Hawaii.

 

[Upchurch]

The authorities in Hawaii have not made any such claim. What you don't seem to understand is that a Hawaii Certificate of Birth is not proof of anything. Not proof of birth in Hawaii, not proof of citizenship. Anyone can make a declaration of birth, even years after the fact, and all the Certificate confirms is that such a declaration has been made. And the declaration is unsworn, the only requirement being that the declarer claims that the parents were legal residents (not citizens) of Hawaii.

If you consider a birth certificate worthless in establishing a person's place of birth, what difference would the original birth certificate make?

 

[Tomtomkent]

He did.

I too recall this event. If we find 38 more witnesses to the event, who say the certificate was genuine in their self appointed expertise (and we all review each others findings favourably as peers) we can declare "a slam dunk". Robert was quite clear on thses rules.

Anybody else want to play the "I am sparticus" defence?

 

[Tomtomkent]

The authorities in Hawaii have not made any such claim.

And if we show they did, or found 40 witnesses to the claim would you concesde you are wrong?

 

[Mojo]

Your question is not a question.

Your answer is not an answer.

 

[Agatha]

The authorities in Hawaii have not made any such claim. What you don't seem to understand is that a Hawaii Certificate of Birth is not proof of anything. Not proof of birth in Hawaii, not proof of citizenship. Anyone can make a declaration of birth, even years after the fact, and all the Certificate confirms is that such a declaration has been made. And the declaration is unsworn, the only requirement being that the declarer claims that the parents were legal residents (not citizens) of Hawaii.

Baloney. None of that is true.

(see how easy that is?)

 

[A'isha]

The authorities in Hawaii have not made any such claim. What you don't seem to understand is that a Hawaii Certificate of Birth is not proof of anything. Not proof of birth in Hawaii, not proof of citizenship. Anyone can make a declaration of birth, even years after the fact, and all the Certificate confirms is that such a declaration has been made. And the declaration is unsworn, the only requirement being that the declarer claims that the parents were legal residents (not citizens) of Hawaii.

Everything in this paragraph is false.

Everything.

 

[abaddon]

Baloney.

Baloney.

Baloney.

Yet, according to you:

Baloney.

Baloney doesn't count. Here's some advice, if you can't back up your claims with examples, even one, there is no reason for anyone to pay any attention to your posts.

By your own words, there is no reason to pay any attention to your posts.

Hoist by your own petard, Bob.