Moderated Obama birth certificate CT / SSN CT / Birther discussion

[Tomtomkent]

Hawaii authorities refused to allow investigators to view the original document.

Investigators from a sherrif from another juristiction with out a viable reason to be offered the document for examination.

You realise "not been viewed" differs from "viewed and shown to be forged" right?

 

[Robert Prey]

No I don't get it. If you can't or won't explain why you think something is false, then you're not participating intelligently. Please show your work.

Your contention that Sheriff Joe has no jurisdiction to investigate evidence of a crime that affects the integrity of the vote in Arizona has nothing to do with the full faith and credit clause. Fact is, Arizona has not refused to recognize the alleged birth place of Obama. Nor has Sheriff Joe even alleged Obama's involvement in a forgery. But Sheriff Joe has merely stated that since there is evidence of forgery, further investigation should take place, perhaps congressional hearings should be held and an independent prosecutor appointed in order to find the perps who did it and punish them. In other words, what you stated on the subject was pure baloney.

 

[A'isha]

Your contention that Sheriff Joe has no jurisdiction to investigate evidence of a crime that affects the integrity of the vote in Arizona has nothing to do with the full faith and credit clause.

You're right, Shurf Joe still has no jurisdiction no matter what the reason given.

Fact is, Arizona has not refused to recognize the alleged birth place of Obama.

Right, ever since Hawaii sent the Arizona Secretary of State official verification of Obama's birth information, Arizona has recognized Hawaii as Obama's birth place.

But Sheriff Joe has merely stated that since there is evidence of forgery, further investigation should take place, perhaps congressional hearings should be held and an independent prosecutor appointed in order to find the perps who did it and punish them.

And Shurf Joe is lying when he says this.

 

[Robrob]

Do you understand that writing "Baloney" does not make inconvenient facts go away?

It's merely a substitute for a another word. Just like Joe Pesche's response to the prosecution's opening statement in the Movie "My Cousin Vinny." Obviously, it means the statements made by the poster are false and when they are false, nothing more need be said but "Baloney". Get it????

Regardless, it still doesn't actually refute the inconvenient facts.

 

[Hans]

Dear Robert

You seemed to have missed my posthttp://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8540495&postcount=323

 

[Straw Man]

It's strange that a poster who is very keen on witness statements decides to ignore them in favour of nonsense from the likes of a media hungry Arizona County Sheriff using smoke and mirrors on all fronts, and a tycoon with Presidential ambitions of his own, and a rather dodgy hairstyle.

The State of Hawaii have confirmed the authenticity of Barack Obama birth certificate and have stated that was born in the state. Health Department Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino and the registrar of vital statistics, Alvin Onaka, personally verified that the health department held President Obama's original birth certificate.

John McCain looked into the rumours, and came up with nothing, because that is all it was, and that was a man with a vested interest in it being true.

He would have been thoroughly vetted by every intelligence agency, not only in the USA, but throughout the land, and they aren't saying anything different.

It seems most of the sane folks in the world are satisfied with the truth, but some are still determined to flog a horse that didn't exist in the first place.

 

[Hans]

Flogging a non-existence horse is always preferrable to flogging a real dead one, less splatter and smell......

 

[JayUtah]

Your contention that Sheriff Joe has no jurisdiction to investigate evidence of a crime that affects the integrity of the vote in Arizona has nothing to do with the full faith and credit clause.

Nonsense. The allegation is that the vote is compromised because the Democratic Party has fielded an ineligible candidate. The charge of ineligibilty is based on the allegation that he is not a natural born U.S. citizen. Although the state of Hawaii has produced the customary documentation of birth in his case, Birthers contend that this is a forged document and further that the forgery has been fraudulently attested as real by Hawaii's secretary of state. This last allegation violates Full Faith and Credit.

But Sheriff Joe has merely stated that since there is evidence of forgery...

Arpaio's belief that the document is forged is irrelevant since he has no authority under the U.S. Constitution to impugn or impeach official vital records provided and certified by another state. A county sheriff simply does not hold that power.

further investigation should take place, perhaps congressional hearings should be held and an independent prosecutor appointed in order to find the perps who did it and punish them.

Even if a county sheriff had such authority, which he does not, the evidence he presents has failed to convince any other law enforcement official, prosecutor, or state official that there is merit to his claim.

As I said, you are factually wrong in claiming Arpaio's belief has not been addressed. His claims are old, and debunked to the satisfaction of everyone except Arpaio and a small group of his fans.

You are legally wrong in claiming that this does not affect Full Faith and Credit.

You are further misleading in claiming that the goal of this so-called investigation is to find and punish the alleged forger. The stated and apparent goal is to prevent Barack Obama from appearing on the November ballot. You yourself confirm this when you characterize this issue as one affecting "voting integrity." You don't mention anything about finding and punishing a forger.

 

[Ladewig]

So what's the question?

Do you see why my proposed answer is much more believable than your answer about political suicide?

.........................
I am not insisting that you go with that answer, you could also try

The Demon Party and their deranged followers are so filled with bloodlust, than anyone who made progress in exposing the usurper would be murdered. Most likely ritually murdered, but murdered for sure. That's how they roll.​

Again you don't have to copy it word for word. If you want to suggest that O and his minions would send a black-ops kill squad led by Hillary Clinton, that would work just as seamlessly - because she is so practiced at murder.


...............
ETA: Oops. Don't say black-ops because the liberals will accuse you of being racist. Maybe a black bag job. No, that doesn't work either. Covert kill team. Yes, that sounds right, the Dems would send a covert kill team.

 

[JayUtah]

Hawaii authorities refused to allow investigators to view the original document.

They properly denied the untimely, unlawful, and unauthorized request of private citizens to view privileged information in the state archive. What I your evidence that this was improper behavior?

 

[Robert Prey]

They properly denied the untimely, unlawful, and unauthorized request of private citizens to view privileged information in the state archive. What I your evidence that this was improper behavior?

Improper??? Unlawful? It was a completely lawful request. All they had to do is get permission from Obama. Why won't Obama give that permission? What is he afraid of? What is he trying to hide?

 

[Robert Prey]

Do you see why my proposed answer is much more believable than your answer about political suicide?

.........................
I am not insisting that you go with that answer, you could also try

The Demon Party and their deranged followers are so filled with bloodlust, than anyone who made progress in exposing the usurper would be murdered. Most likely ritually murdered, but murdered for sure. That's how they roll.​

Again you don't have to copy it word for word. If you want to suggest that O and his minions would send a black-ops kill squad led by Hillary Clinton, that would work just as seamlessly - because she is so practiced at murder.


...............
ETA: Oops. Don't say black-ops because the liberals will accuse you of being racist. Maybe a black bag job. No, that doesn't work either. Covert kill team. Yes, that sounds right, the Dems would send a covert kill team.

I still don't get the question. Nor your point. Do you have one?

 

[Robert Prey]

Nonsense. The allegation is that the vote is compromised because the Democratic Party has fielded an ineligible candidate. The charge of ineligibilty is based on the allegation that he is not a natural born U.S. citizen. Although the state of Hawaii has produced the customary documentation of birth in his case, Birthers contend that this is a forged document and further that the forgery has been fraudulently attested as real by Hawaii's secretary of state. This last allegation violates Full Faith and Credit.



Arpaio's belief that the document is forged is irrelevant since he has no authority under the U.S. Constitution to impugn or impeach official vital records provided and certified by another state. A county sheriff simply does not hold that power.
Even if a county sheriff had such authority, which he does not, the evidence he presents has failed to convince any other law enforcement official, prosecutor, or state official that there is merit to his claim.

As I said, you are factually wrong in claiming Arpaio's belief has not been addressed. His claims are old, and debunked to the satisfaction of everyone except Arpaio and a small group of his fans.

.

Baloney.

 

[Robert Prey]

It's strange that a poster who is very keen on witness statements decides to ignore them in favour of nonsense from the likes of a media hungry Arizona County Sheriff using smoke and mirrors on all fronts, and a tycoon with Presidential ambitions of his own, and a rather dodgy hairstyle.

The State of Hawaii have confirmed the authenticity of Barack Obama birth certificate and have stated that was born in the state. Health Department Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino and the registrar of vital statistics, Alvin Onaka, personally verified that the health department held President Obama's original birth certificate.

.

But won't let anyone see it. If that were you or me or Romney or anyone, the controversy would be over before it even started by simply giving permission to view the original. What is O trying to hide?

 

[JayUtah]

Baloney.

Please show your work.

 

[JayUtah]

Improper??? Unlawful? It was a completely lawful request.

No. The release of vital records to anyone but the subject is unlawful in the state of Hawaii. Hence a request on the part of anyone but the subject of the records to release or examine them is necessarily unlawful.

The request was untimely because the Hawaii Secretary of State had already certified the record.

The request was unauthorized because while the investigators initially stated that they were affiliated with the sheriff's office, they were in fact acting only as private citizens.

All this has been covered at length in the other thread on this topic. You're simply trying to do an end run around all that and start a new debate from the beginning.

All they had to do is get permission from Obama.

No. The subject of a vital record in Hawaii does not have the authority to compel the custodian of those records to allow inspection by third parties. The proper chain of custody is that the custodian will produce a certified copy of the vital record and release it to the subject, who may then do with it what he wants. The same procedure was followed in Obama's case as would be followed in any other case. The Birthers' request that Hawaii should follow some new policy that they devise, and that failure to follow it constitutes de facto evidence of fraud, is inappropriate and absurd.

 

[Hans]

Please show your work.

Hey Jay at least you got a 'baloney' I just get ignored! lol

Robert you forgot to answer my question

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8541309&postcount=347

 

[Robrob]

Improper??? Unlawful? It was a completely lawful request. All they had to do is get permission from Obama. Why won't Obama give that permission? What is he afraid of? What is he trying to hide?

Out of curiosity, have any of the tens of thousands born in Hawaii in the same era as Obama managed to fulfill any of the conditions you demand of Obama?

Easy solution to your complaint; get a Hawaiian born Birther to "give permission" and see what kind of documents you get.

If they are any different than what Obama has presented, you have a case.

If they are exactly the same as what Obama has presented, you have nothing.

I'm pretty sure we all know the answer...

 

[Chaos]

It's merely a substitute for a another word. Just like Joe Pesche's response to the prosecution's opening statement in the Movie "My Cousin Vinny." Obviously, it means the statements made by the poster are false and when they are false, nothing more need be said but "Baloney". Get it????

I get that something else need said: the EVIDENCE that the statements are false.

 

[Robert Prey]

Out of curiosity, have any of the tens of thousands born in Hawaii in the same era as Obama managed to fulfill any of the conditions you demand of Obama?

Easy solution to your complaint; get a Hawaiian born Birther to "give permission" and see what kind of documents you get.

If they are any different than what Obama has presented, you have a case.

If they are exactly the same as what Obama has presented, you have nothing.

I'm pretty sure we all know the answer...

No. You haven't a clue. "Fulfill any of the conditions???? There is only one condition which any of the millions born in Hawaii could easily fulfill. Just produce the original.