Decline in religious belief in Ireland

[Halfcentaur]

In your world, are there unicorns?

Feel free to provide some examples of "violence and criminality so often associated with atheism's lack of a moral compass." Please don't forget to compare them to the long term and still on going religious based violence Ireland has suffered for generations?

If you want to see an example of a state which goes out of it's way to promote a secular system of government that simultaneously values personal liberty as much as it's secular politics, look no further than America.

Citing atheist regimes akin to Stalin's and Pol Pot's which elevated the government to godhood with dogmatic thinking and who discouraged personal liberty and open discourse is an old straw man the theists like to pull out whenever they want to go after historical examples of atheist societies, when really the United States is the most analogous to what the majority of humanist and new atheists are talking about in these now notorious discussions.

It's always a caricature of the majority that is cited, while you'll see only a very small percentile of the people taking part in these discussions who actually want to stamp out religion with force.

But if I am not mistaken, the post you're quoting was sarcastic, I am hoping and guessing.

 

[lionking]

Everything in Ireland, including religion and atheism, is an elaborate excuse for a drink. I'll be going there again next year to partake of their one true religion.

 

[westprog]

Citing atheist regimes akin to Stalin's and Pol Pot's which elevated the government to godhood with dogmatic thinking and who discouraged personal liberty and open discourse is an old straw man the theists like to pull out whenever they want to go after historical examples of atheist societies, when really the United States is the most analogous to what the majority of humanist and new atheists are talking about in these now notorious discussions.

No true atheist, eh?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

The Irish Republic was one of the safest places in the world for generations.

It just made sure that Northern Ireland and the UK were not.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

No true atheist, eh?

Except that in some circumstances it really ISN'T a Scotsman.

Pol Pot and Stalin were vicious, cruel men. In fact, I can't think of a single thing Pol Pot did that wasn't absolutely awful. They were also both atheists. However they are different from, for example, the Crusades or the Inquisition or in more modern parlance the 9/11 hijackers or 7/7 bombers. They didn't brutally slaughter people for atheism or because they were atheist, they did it and also happened to be atheists.

On the other hand, the terrorist examples did it for their own perverse version of Islam, and the Crusades and Inquisition killed for Christ.

There's a huge difference between someone who kills and is part of a subset and someone who kills because they are part of a subset.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

The Irish Republic was one of the safest places in the world for generations.

Isn't that becasue they were busy bombing the British?

Of course, this was at a cost, including a system that took children from their parents to be sex slaves to perverts.

I think it's a strange definition of "safe" which doesn't include children being free from institutionalised slavery and rape.

However, the disillusion with the church has been accompanied by a massive increase in crime, violence and social disintegration.

Do you have a cite for that?

 

[Bad vibe]

I'm sure there was a recent tv documentary on this that seemed to point to several causes. Younger generations disinterest in the RCC leaving a huge drop in younger people training for priesthood and older people abandoning the RCC because of the scandals and coverups involving the now head of the RCC in Ireland. I don't recall any report of increased crime or violence though.

 

[catsmate]

The Irish Republic was one of the safest places in the world for generations. Of course, this was at a cost, including a system that took children from their parents to be sex slaves to perverts. However, the disillusion with the church has been accompanied by a massive increase in crime, violence and social disintegration.

No. This simply isn't true.

The question is, did the disillusionment with the church cause the increase in crime, violence, and social disintegration?

Or are they both perhaps, due to other factors?

Everything in Ireland, including religion and atheism, is an elaborate excuse for a drink. I'll be going there again next year to partake of their one true religion.

Let me know when you're here. I'll see what can be done to make your visit...................memorable.

 

[westprog]

Except that in some circumstances it really ISN'T a Scotsman.

Pol Pot and Stalin were vicious, cruel men. In fact, I can't think of a single thing Pol Pot did that wasn't absolutely awful. They were also both atheists. However they are different from, for example, the Crusades or the Inquisition or in more modern parlance the 9/11 hijackers or 7/7 bombers. They didn't brutally slaughter people for atheism or because they were atheist, they did it and also happened to be atheists.

On the other hand, the terrorist examples did it for their own perverse version of Islam, and the Crusades and Inquisition killed for Christ.

There's a huge difference between someone who kills and is part of a subset and someone who kills because they are part of a subset.

Pol Pot and Stalin did what they did because of their ideology and worldview, just like the terrorists or the crusaders. Their ideology happened to be atheist, and the crusaders happened not to be.

If one is determined to exonerate atheism from blame, and to place blame on theism, then I suppose it's possible, but I don't see it as soundly based.

 

[westprog]

Isn't that becasue they were busy bombing the British?



I think it's a strange definition of "safe" which doesn't include children being free from institutionalised slavery and rape.

If I tell you something, you can assume it's because I want you to know it.

Do you have a cite for that?

I'm sure the Irish crime statistics are out there somewhere.

 

[westprog]

No. This simply isn't true.

Isn't it now? So Irish crime rates are what they were in the 1950's? Well, glad to hear it.

 

[a_unique_person]

Based on the RedC poll, carried in most newspapers today, there has been a sharp drop in religious belief here over the last seven years. Now less than half the population (47%) describe themselves as "religious" as opposed to 59% in 2005.


According to the research, the Republic of Ireland is now in the top ten for the number of people declaring themselves to be "a convinced atheist".

The RCC isn't saying a lot; an earlier (Amarach) poll indicating even church members don't agree with the policies in force, e.g. 77% believe women should be ordained and 90% believe priests should be able to marry.

I'm making a WAG here, but it could be something to do with all the sexual abuse of children over the years that was hidden up and denied by the church.

 

[lionking]

Let me know when you're here. I'll see what can be done to make your visit...................memorable.

Hey, thanks. I'll be there mid March next year. Only for three or four days, and the only plans are to wander around Dublin, visit newgrange and meet our mate Fran from Drumconda who was our host last time. We had a great night at Fagin's. And another at Brazen Head. And another at..... you get the picture.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

If I tell you something, you can assume it's because I want you to know it.

That's exactly what I do assume. Can you answer the questions I asked you, though?

I'm sure the Irish crime statistics are out there somewhere.

Then you should have no problem whatsoever backing up your assertion.

 

[catsmate]

Hey, thanks. I'll be there mid March next year. Only for three or four days, and the only plans are to wander around Dublin, visit newgrange and meet our mate Fran from Drumconda who was our host last time. We had a great night at Fagin's. And another at Brazen Head. And another at..... you get the picture.

Excellent, we're not too far from Drumcondra, nearer the airport. See you next near.

 

[catsmate]

Isn't it now? So Irish crime rates are what they were in the 1950's? Well, glad to hear it.

And what has that got to do with your claim:

However, the disillusion with the church has been accompanied by a massive increase in crime, violence and social disintegration.

which directly linked your (claimed) social disintegration with disillusionment with the RCC.
Perhaps you should support your claims?

 

[abaddon]

And what has that got to do with your claim:

which directly linked your (claimed) social disintegration with disillusionment with the RCC.
Perhaps you should support your claims?

Is westprog Irish? I have lived all my life in Dublin, and I can say for sure, crime was a lot worse in the 80s/early 90s.

 

[westprog]

That's exactly what I do assume. Can you answer the questions I asked you, though?

What do you expect me to say that I didn't already point out? There used to be far less crime in Ireland a generation ago. People were far less likely to be attacked or robbed. On the other hand, there was terrible institutional abuse. So if you want to quibble about definitions, go ahead. It doesn't change anything substantial.

 

[fuelair]

I only hope Ireland is ready for the violence and criminality so often associated with atheism's lack of a moral compass. The peace and unity of past decades will be but a happy memory. Very sad.

I'm guessing you refer to the love fests held frequently by the orange lads and the green boyos. Lovely bit o' kneecapping, bombing, tommygunning. Yep a loss of religion could certainly make'em go for the old violence again!! OH, WAIT - that's what they had with the religion.

 

[fuelair]

What can I say? I remember the JP2 visit in 1979, scutting around in the mud of the Pheonix Park, trying to get a glimpse of his rolliness for the lolz. Let me tell you the interest palled rapidly. But, that was what you did, at the time. I was only ten, but had already formed the view that the RCC clergy were so out of touch with reality, that they were irrelevant, and it was bunk anyway.

Lucky me, I wasn't a victim of the RCC, but I heard lots from those who were.

This country has changed so drastically that if another papal visit occurs, I am pretty sure there will be people throwing things. I have no idea who they might be, or why they might protest. I do know that they will be justified.

If not the RCC, what say to the RUCs?