Scientology abandoned by Hubbard's granddaughter & Miscavige's father

[Krikkiter]

But donchya see, by thinking it doesnt work you are ruining any chance at all of it working for you.

Also, dowsing only works when you don't have a structured test in progress.

Also, psychic abilities dont work in the presence of skeptics.

Also, god moves in mysterious ways.

Doesn't this type of thinking fill you with hope for the human race?

I believe!

 

[The Dark Lord]

A useless piece of crap made using slave labor with maybe a few dozen dollars worth of parts that the CO$ charges thousands of dollars for.

 

[Krikkiter]

A useless piece of crap made using slave labor with maybe a few dozen dollars worth of parts that the CO$ charges thousands of dollars for.

This.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

What's being argued about is the meaning of what's going on with each, not the material facts.

No, the e-meter has scientific claims made about it. That's what's being argued about.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

It is no different than any other claim I make about the world, including the claim that scientific evidence is a reliable path to truth. I believe that just as strongly as someone else may believe that chanting and meditation is a better path.

The difference being that the scientific method demonstrably works, which is how come we're communicating by typing letters in to computers.

The lesson for me was that a tool loses its power when others don't trust it -- even when it gives the correct answer. And that's what's going on with our insistence on scientific experimentation. To the Scientologist's eyes, it isn't a trustworthy tool.

I which case, they shouldn't trust the writings of L. Run Hubbard, as he was insistent that his claims were scientific in nature. Dianetics even includes an appendix laying out the scientific method:

[...]the Scientific Method implies zestfully, gleefully attacking, with every available weapon of logic, every possible logical loophole in -- your own structure of logic and theory. It requires that a man tear into his carefully built theory with the vim, vigor and spite of his worst enemy. It implies that a scientist’s best friend will review his work starting with the premise that it’s all wrong and do his best to prove it’s wrong.

Yet Justinian is terrified of taking this and applying it to what he thinks he knows is true. He absolutely will not entertain the idea of empirically testing the e-meter, despite it being written in the literature of his own religion that he should always be looking to prove his beliefs wrong.

The same appendix says you should never be certain about anything. You'll note that I've said that if I'm presented with empirical evidence that the e-meter works I'll change my opinion, yet Justinian is unprepared to test it because:

Every Scientologist knows with 100% certainty that the Emeter works in the application for which it was designed.

That's 100% certainty! There's no room for other opinions. Scientologists have a solid belief that the Emeter works.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Scientology wouldn't take any of the antagonists on this forum, so what's the point?

Scientologists, unlike society, haven't been taught how to force someone to believe something. Nobody has to fear Scientology unless they fear the truth.

If you believe them true, why are you so terrified of scientifically testing the claims of Scientology?

 

[marplots]

The difference being that the scientific method demonstrably works, which is how come we're communicating by typing letters in to computers.

I read this a lot in the forums, but it's not quite correct. You could demonstrate it to someone with the background necessary to understand it, but for most people, your demonstration would consist of: "Watch as I press these keys and letters appear on the screen. Press a few more keys and others, even on the other side of the world, can see them too."

Do I care if there are transistors and logic gates, fiber optics and routing? Nope. For all the demonstrating going on, it might just as well be magical ants and ant-tenna technology.

That's the problem. This same group, when shown an emeter, and seeing the needle jump for whatever reason, is told, "That there is science, an undiscovered and unknown science." They've got essentially the same demonstration. The flaw is not in the facts or the truth, the flaw is in the person who doesn't grasp the meaning behind the facts.

I'll go even further -- they don't want to know it isn't supersecret, hidden tech. They don't want to know because then the mystery and the belief disappears.

I think skeptics miss this, at least if I am to judge by what's offered up. Like soylent green, Scientology is made of people.

Facts do not have the force we would like them to. First of all because no one can be bothered to examine them, but secondly, and perhaps more to the point -- they don't care.

In skeptic town, facts rule the day (or should). But these folks aren't living in skeptic town. They are just visiting to see the strange lifeforms.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Sorry, are you honestly asserting that the average Joe Public would be just as ready to believe that computers work by magic as that they are the result of scientific research? Because I hope I don't have to go into great detail explaining why that's bollocks.

 

[marplots]

Sorry, are you honestly asserting that the average Joe Public would be just as ready to believe that computers work by magic as that they are the result of scientific research? Because I hope I don't have to go into great detail explaining why that's bollocks.

But you said, "demonstrably so" -- you didn't say, "accepted as true."

I'm embedded in a society that already accepts that computers run on scientific principles -- without doing the "proof." So that's a non-starter. I would point out that such things as "quantum field" audio cables show exactly what the public will accept when they either cannot or do not investigate "sciency" stuff.

It was a hallmark of LRH's genius to use science in place of God. And in Scientology, this mythical "science" (I need a different word) does convince people. It isn't that science works by magic, but that magic works by science. Or, at least an appeal to uncheckable fake science suffices where magic used to.

My point is that saying "science did this," at least for some, is the exact type of claim Scientology is making. Only their claim fails when actual scientists are on the case. But they aren't the ones signing up.

Edited to add: A. Clarke's third law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Wouldn't that be a fine thing if the "sufficiently advanced" only referred to a subset of humanity instead of humankind?

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

But you said, "demonstrably so" -- you didn't say, "accepted as true."

And this is true. It was you who brought up public perception, not me.

My point is that saying "science did this," at least for some, is the exact type of claim Scientology is making. Only their claim fails when actual scientists are on the case.

Right. Because science demonstrably works, whereas thinking whatever you'd like to be true is true doesn't.

 

[marplots]

And this is true. It was you who brought up public perception, not me.

I'm sorry. I did assume that your demonstration was meant for the larger public and not those "in the know."

Right. Because science demonstrably works, whereas thinking whatever you'd like to be true is true doesn't.

How then, do you explain that throughout this thread, through many efforts and some toil, no one has been able to demonstrate the emeter doesn't work to it's supporters here?

What do you propose is going on in their heads that makes them so resistant to any such demonstration? Once you've found that thing, you will have found the thing I am pointing at.

 

[shuttlt]

How then, do you explain that throughout this thread, through many efforts and some toil, no one has been able to demonstrate the emeter doesn't work to it's supporters here?

What do you propose is going on in their heads that makes them so resistant to any such demonstration? Once you've found that thing, you will have found the thing I am pointing at.

A small correction to the Pope thing. The analogy would be if the pope and all his cardinals bishops and priests, and also all the protestant ministers claimed to be able to cure the diseases of mankind and could prove all this to the satisfaction of everybody, but not one had ever decided to do so. If Justinian believes that the emeter and auditing work as Hubbard claimed and it could cure Leukaemia, why doesn't he do something about it? The folks who believe that auditing can cure leukaemia never look in the newspaper at a story of some little kid with the condition and think, "you know what I will prove that it all works after all". I think what they do and don't know, and do and don't believe is somewhat more complicated.

 

[dafydd]

Scientology wouldn't take any of the antagonists on this forum, so what's the point?

Scientologists, unlike society, haven't been taught how to force someone to believe something. Nobody has to fear Scientology unless they fear the truth.

Do you fear the truth about Hubbard's war record? How does society force somebody to believe something? Which society? I'm not surprised that you refuse to answer the awkward questions.

 

[shuttlt]

Do you fear the truth about Hubbard's war record? How does society force somebody to believe something? Which society? I'm not surprised that you refuse to answer the awkward questions.

Society does kind of force you to believe things. If you believe something that clashes with the popular notion of what is rational/sensible/acceptable you will most likely be mocked and generally have a hard time. If you have a belief that causes you to clash with the way everybody else operates, you will have an even harder time - like people who don't believe in income tax. Society really doesn't allow you to act out what ever private fantasy you choose.

 

[dafydd]

Society does kind of force you to believe things. If you believe something that clashes with the popular notion of what is rational/sensible/acceptable you will most likely be mocked and generally have a hard time. If you have a belief that causes you to clash with the way everybody else operates, you will have an even harder time - like people who don't believe in income tax. Society really doesn't allow you to act out what ever private fantasy you choose.

You are talking about behavior, not belief.

 

[shuttlt]

You are talking about behavior, not belief.

I don't think you can decouple it in that way. Sure society is focused mainly on the behaviour (except with the mocking aspect), but it's hard to act on the behaviour without acting on the belief. Homeopaths and Scientologists supposedly believe they have in their power the cure for all sorts of illnesses. They mainly get in to trouble when they try to act on that belief. They get taken to court, they get asked for evidence for their claims and they get forced to put labels on their products implying they don't really work. Some people might find this undermining to their beliefs. Sure, they can go on believing that their magic water can cure things, but society makes it much harder than it would be if it didn't keep slapping them down every time they acted as if their beliefs were true.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

How then, do you explain that throughout this thread, through many efforts and some toil, no one has been able to demonstrate the emeter doesn't work to it's supporters here?

Because human beings aren't rational.

That's kind of my point - that the beliefs Justinian holds are irrational and unscientific, despite the fact that the claims are supposedly scientifically-proven. If they weren't irrational and unscientific, he wouldn't be running scared at the thought of testing them scientifically.

 

[Justinian2]

If any of us were stupid enough to give them money, they would take it for sure.

Sure they have. That's how people become <SNIP>.

Edited by Locknar: 

Moderated content removed.

I don't know why the moderators are allowing attacks against the arguer to continue.

Fear Scientology the "religion"? No, there is not much reason to fear that. It is just a bunch of nonsensical gibberish.

These unfounded opinions continue to stream from people with no creditials. I have repeatedly asked for credentials that would suggest some type of knowledge, but have gotten none. Opinions without fact or authority are characteristic of the average ten year old, not an adult.

Fear Scientology the "church," well, there is good reason to fear that. It is an evil, powerful organization run by a two successive megalomaniac lunatics.

That's a misquote. I said fear the truth. The church can't make you believe something. They don't torture you like the police. If you want to believe them it's because you believe that what they say is plausible.

Originally Posted by Justinian2:

Scientology wouldn't take any of the antagonists on this forum, so what's the point?

If any of us were stupid enough to give them money, they would take it for sure.

You would be quickly declared a suppressive and expelled from the church for making just one antagonistic statement such as the ones found here. In fact, JREF itself would probably be declared a suppressive group for its continuing crimes (overts). No, they would not take your money, they would boot you out.

Scientologists, unlike society, haven't been taught how to force someone to believe something.

Lies, hypnosis, and brainwashing are the methods society uses to force people to believe something that they don't want to believe. People also are forced to believe something they don't want to believe by repetition, peer pressure and bullying such as:

Sure they have. That's how people become little Scilon drones like you.

The Antagonists here are the evil 'OTs'. The antagonists here are the Darth Vaders of bad force. The antagonists here can't be beaten with truth, so Scientologists have no power over you - the antagonists that amplify the weak points and lie about the good points.

It is folly to argue with people that don't believe that the Emeter works. As an electrical engineer that has seen medical research into EPPs (electrical nerve impulses) and who has been a lifetime Scientologist, I can't argue with you because you and other antagonists won't open your eyes.

 

[calebprime]

I don't know why the moderators are allowing attacks against the arguer to continue.

...

The post in question has to be reported by someone. You can report it. The mods don't monitor every post and every thread.

I agree that the post is insulting and would get a yellow card if someone reported it.

 

[Justinian2]

If you wish to read more about EPPs, study the following link:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/186724/end-plate-potential-EPP