Scientology abandoned by Hubbard's granddaughter & Miscavige's father

[marplots]

Marplots said: What fascinates me is that there might not be anyone at all in Scientology who knows Scientology is bogus. Even David Miscavage.

You have no way of knowing this.

True enough, that's why I said, "might not be." But, if your objection is that what I described isn't possible, I don't see why not.

For example, is it necessarily so that the Pope doesn't believe in Christianity? If we grant that some believe, that's evidence that the stuff is believable, no matter how robust the criticisms. We also know that Miscavage was raised in the system. We also know that some defectors still practice and find value in Scientology.

So, I cannot say he isn't playing the all-knowing puppet master, but I don't think he has to be. LRH has been described as the master con man here, primarily because he created the whole thing. I am just wondering if he created David Miscavage as well and Scientology is just running along on its own. It seems to me that all religions must have had some point where they developed enough inertia to just keep going after the man behind the curtain died.

 

[marplots]

If they don't know it's bogus, have all these PR problems and yet have a technique that could cure most of the worlds diseases, you'd have thought they would be blundering about under the mistaken belief that they could solve their PR problems/make even more money by proving (in a way that would matter to non-believers) they could cure most of the worlds diseases. Odd that they don't, given that they believe and therefore presumably think they could.

I've read that theme somewhere at the scientologykids website. I think it's in the open letter to scientologists. And in some cases, that's exactly why someone started losing their beliefs.

I would say the challenge is at least as strong as the "Why does God allow so many evil things to happen?"

It might also explain why the higher ups defect. At some point, it must seem like the promised payoffs just aren't happening. At all.

 

[Krikkiter]

It would be insane to discuss Scientology with anybody that doesn't believe that the emeter works.

It only takes moments for the Church of Scientology to give you a demonstration of the Emeter and an hour for an Introductory session. It is insane to discuss the emeter to anyone that won't avail himself of those opportunities. A demonstration is worth a thousand words to each person that wants to know.

"... it is an electronic instrument that measures mental state and change of state in individuals ..."

http://www.scientologynews.org/faq/what-is-the-emeter.html

It does no such thing and is wholly incapable of doing anything of the sort.

It is insane to assert that it does these things without evidence to back up the claim. Further, one can quite easily do some web browsing to find out that the E-Meter is a complete hoax.

Xenu? Galactic Confederacy? Engrams? H-bombs and volcanoes?

 

[Krikkiter]

True enough, that's why I said, "might not be." But, if your objection is that what I described isn't possible, I don't see why not.

For example, is it necessarily so that the Pope doesn't believe in Christianity? If we grant that some believe, that's evidence that the stuff is believable, no matter how robust the criticisms. We also know that Miscavage was raised in the system. We also know that some defectors still practice and find value in Scientology.

So, I cannot say he isn't playing the all-knowing puppet master, but I don't think he has to be. LRH has been described as the master con man here, primarily because he created the whole thing. I am just wondering if he created David Miscavage as well and Scientology is just running along on its own. It seems to me that all religions must have had some point where they developed enough inertia to just keep going after the man behind the curtain died.

I'm simply saying that there is no way you could know these things so it may be entertaining to speculate but this speculation is ultimately useless, apart from your personal entertainment, as opposed to being " an amazing thing".

Further, stories abound about people rejecting everything about Scientology once they have left so there is evidence that the only reason people believe is because they are vested to do so. So, it may only be believable if a person is able to be convinced to believe. That stinks of con to me.

You seem to be saying that because people believe there must be a reason they believe therefore there must be some validity to Scientology claims. There is a flaw in that logic that I'm sure you can see.

 

[marplots]

I'm simply saying that there is no way you could know these things so it may be entertaining to speculate but this speculation is ultimately useless, apart from your personal entertainment, as opposed to being " an amazing thing".

Further, stories abound about people rejecting everything about Scientology once they have left so there is evidence that the only reason people believe is because they are vested to do so. So, it may only be believable if a person is able to be convinced to believe. That stinks of con to me.

What started me down the path was an idea that Miscavage isn't harvesting the money. But I don't really know that either. He very well may have some secret Swiss bank account. It's also based on my idea that a conman based con has to end, a cashing in of your chips so to speak. I might have that wrong as well.

You seem to be saying that because people believe there must be a reason they believe therefore there must be some validity to Scientology claims. There is a flaw in that logic that I'm sure you can see.

Yes. I do not hold that validity (in the scientific sense) is essential. At least, not validity of the through-and-through type. I do think they get something out of it besides the missing cures and magical powers. Just regular stuff like camaraderie or sense of purpose or whatever. As far as the "why they believe," I don't think the subject matter is as important as the subjects.

My guess is the root explanation, if there is one, centers on human beings and not Scientology. That is, before Scientology existed, this same thing happened only with a different name attached. Shermer's book is pretty good on this topic.

I thought of another good question. What does Scientology provide that society does not? Or, another way, what do they do better than society at large?

 

[ddt]

What started me down the path was an idea that Miscavage isn't harvesting the money. But I don't really know that either. He very well may have some secret Swiss bank account. It's also based on my idea that a conman based con has to end, a cashing in of your chips so to speak. I might have that wrong as well.

It's an interesting question to pursue, I think, though the answer is ultimately unknowable (unless someone would be able to psychiatrically examine Miscavige, and maybe others ). You're right, AFAIK, that most if not all nowadays top-Scientologists are long-time adherents or even raised from childhood in the system. However, on basis of the lack of success of the "tech", I also come down on the side that they must realize it doesn't work.

As to Miscavige, he may or may not have a Swiss bank account. But he certainly enjoys quite some luxury (see this photo series), while many of his underlings in the same compound have to live in single rooms, even married couples. Another powerful motivator for Miscavige is, of course, the power he wields over his empire.

 

[Justinian2]

[...] After reading this thread they'll be far less likely to become a Scientologist.

Scientology wouldn't take any of the antagonists on this forum, so what's the point?

Scientologists, unlike society, haven't been taught how to force someone to believe something. Nobody has to fear Scientology unless they fear the truth.

 

[Krikkiter]

What started me down the path was an idea that Miscavage isn't harvesting the money. But I don't really know that either. He very well may have some secret Swiss bank account. It's also based on my idea that a conman based con has to end, a cashing in of your chips so to speak. I might have that wrong as well.

The people who run the show won't be cashing in their chips. They are interested in power and wealth 'till death do they part. As opposed to the kids in the Sea Org who work their fingers to the bone and are physically and mentally abused, cut off from their families and with a billion year contract hanging over their heads, all for the greater good. Meanwhile, people like Miscavage and Tommy Davis live it up in opulence.

Yes. I do not hold that validity (in the scientific sense) is essential. At least, not validity of the through-and-through type. I do think they get something out of it besides the missing cures and magical powers. Just regular stuff like camaraderie or sense of purpose or whatever. As far as the "why they believe," I don't think the subject matter is as important as the subjects.

My guess is the root explanation, if there is one, centers on human beings and not Scientology. That is, before Scientology existed, this same thing happened only with a different name attached. Shermer's book is pretty good on this topic.

I thought of another good question. What does Scientology provide that society does not? Or, another way, what do they do better than society at large?

I'll agree with you there. I think there are a few things at work. Firstly, the con job with the E-Meters. Second the very human desire of wanting to belong to a group. But you don't need Scientology for that. Interesting that they often go after the vulnerable and young people.

Lastly, there are rumours that certain high profile Scientologists have been threatened with the release of their personal Auditing session documents if they try to leave.

You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.

Also, if all you're getting is a sense of belonging and personal security, think about the trade off. It costs a small fortune to continue to progress. The benefits are outweighed by the costs.

 

[The Dark Lord]

I doubt that David Miscavige has squirrelled money away for himself in Swiss bank accounts. That doesn't mean that he doesn't know the whole thing is a con game. It would be straight embezzlement and he would go to prison if he got caught. And since he can live in luxury on the "church's" dime, it doesn't seem worth the risk. Plus he yields basically absolute power over the "church" and has personal slaves that do whatever he tells them to. Plenty of motivation for somebody with no conscience to continue the con.

 

[devnull]

Scientology wouldn't take any of the antagonists on this forum, so what's the point?

Really? If I were to walk down to my local Scilon "church" and ask for a free stress test, they would spot me as a JREF antagonist and ask me to leave?

Really?

Scientologists, unlike society, haven't been taught how to force someone to believe something. Nobody has to fear Scientology unless they fear the truth.

For some definition of "truth"?

 

[The Dark Lord]

Scientology wouldn't take any of the antagonists on this forum, so what's the point?

If any of us were stupid enough to give them money, they would take it for sure.

Scientologists, unlike society, haven't been taught how to force someone to believe something.

Sure they have. That's how people become <SNIP> .

Nobody has to fear Scientology unless they fear the truth.

Fear Scientology the "religion"? No, there is not much reason to fear that. It is just a bunch of nonsensical gibberish.

Fear Scientology the "church," well, there is good reason to fear that. It is an evil, powerful organization run by a two successive megalomaniac lunatics.

Edited by Locknar: 

Edited, breach of rule 12.

 

[Krikkiter]

Scientology wouldn't take any of the antagonists on this forum, so what's the point?

Scientologists, unlike society, haven't been taught how to force someone to believe something. Nobody has to fear Scientology unless they fear the truth.

Rubbish. Suicides and deaths due to neglect; being harassed and intimidated; frivolous litigation; being cut off from loved ones and having loved ones cut off; human trafficking; slave labour; physical and mental abuse etc.

 

[Krikkiter]

Scientology wouldn't take any of the antagonists on this forum, so what's the point?

Scientologists, unlike society, haven't been taught how to force someone to believe something. Nobody has to fear Scientology unless they fear the truth.

Complete projection.

 

[abaddon]

You caught me out. I should have connected the two by saying something like, "this tastes crappy, there is too much salt in it."

No, you should have connected the two by saying "scientology is full of it, how come I didn't taste it yet?"

 

[Krikkiter]

$cientology claims that "When the person thinks a thought, looks at a picture in their mind, re-experiences an incident or shifts some part of the reactive mind, they are moving and changing actual mental mass and energy. These changes in the mind influence the tiny flow of electrical energy generated by the E-Meter, causing the needle on its dial to move. The needle reactions on the E-Meter tell the auditor where the charge lies, and that it should be addressed through auditing."

Absolute rubbish.

 

[Robrob]

Funny, the inventor of the E-Meter didn't much care for its use.

"I decry the doings of trivial fakers, such as scientologists and the like, who glibly denounce hypnosis and then try covertly to use it in their phony systems"

I'd be quite interested in learning just how exactly an analog device that reads through your hands and seems to do nothing more than show fluctuations in simple electrical current, can somehow show what your brain is thinking and where it is thinking it.

IMHO, it's nothing more than a simplified polygraph, used to extract secrets and extort tithes.

 

[devnull]

$cientology claims that "When the person thinks a thought, looks at a picture in their mind, re-experiences an incident or shifts some part of the reactive mind, they are moving and changing actual mental mass and energy. These changes in the mind influence the tiny flow of electrical energy generated by the E-Meter, causing the needle on its dial to move. The needle reactions on the E-Meter tell the auditor where the charge lies, and that it should be addressed through auditing."

Absolute rubbish.

But donchya see, by thinking it doesnt work you are ruining any chance at all of it working for you.

Also, dowsing only works when you don't have a structured test in progress.

Also, psychic abilities dont work in the presence of skeptics.

Also, god moves in mysterious ways.

Doesn't this type of thinking fill you with hope for the human race?

 

[Twiler]

Scientology wouldn't take any of the antagonists on this forum, so what's the point?

Scientologists, unlike society, haven't been taught how to force someone to believe something. Nobody has to fear Scientology unless they fear the truth.

You forgot Lisa Mcpherson again.

 

[Krikkiter]

Funny, the inventor of the E-Meter didn't much care for its use.


I'd be quite interested in learning just how exactly an analog device that reads through your hands and seems to do nothing more than show fluctuations in simple electrical current, can somehow show what your brain is thinking and where it is thinking it.

IMHO, it's nothing more than a simplified polygraph, used to extract secrets and extort tithes.

But Justinian will tell you that it doesn't detect lies. In which case, what does it detect? Well, apparently that depends on who you ask but I have heard of it described as a "truth detector."

Either way the thing is so badly designed that it's pretty much useless.

Who was it that said that any sufficiently advanced technology will be indistinguishable from magic ...? or something like that... Unfortunately for $cientology the E-Meter is laughably archaic.

 

[shuttlt]

I would say the challenge is at least as strong as the "Why does God allow so many evil things to happen?"

I disagree. The problem of pain is about questioning the judgement and motives of an omniscient, omnipotent being who exists outside time. If the Pope claimed personally to have the power to heal the sick, then the situation would be the same.