General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[Nessie]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bergen_Belsen_Liberation_05.jpg

http://collections.yadvashem.org/photosarchive/en-us/4065195.html


http://collections.yadvashem.org/photosarchive/en-us/4065196.html


http://www.scrapbookpages.com/bergenbelsen/OldPhotos/BelsenChildren.jpg

Doesn't look like these people were starved.

How long had they been at the camps for?

 

[Natan]

It will do nicely. Now, what part of the generally accepted view of the holocaust do you believe you have crushed with this daring raid into the hoaxters own website?

The cremation capacity at Auschwitz.

What do you make of this memo, Simon? Would you not call it industrial scale?

I take it that 250 cremations per day for 3 double muffle ovens equals 41,6 cremations per muffle per day equals one cremation per muffle in 34 minutes at continuous operation equals physics suspending fake memo.

 

[Natan]

The man that designed disagrees with you.
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/auschwitz/crematoria/sander-001.html

This shows you the testimony is possibly forced or anyway invalid otherwise as bodies can not serve as "fuel". Physics 101. Maybe you like to believe in the possibility of human spontaneous self combustion, but I don't. What is the number of MJ/kg of the human body? If we were to believe the holohoaxsters, we would be able to build an single stage to orbit rocket on dead jew fat plus liquid oxygen combination.

 

[triforcharity]

How long had they been at the camps for?

I was wondering the same thing. How long were these people (I'll call them people, and not Jews or some other label) at the camps when these photos were taken?

Who took these photos?

 

[Natan]

You've "heard", have you? Care to share the source with us and actually put real facts on the table?

Not been following the news have you?

http://www.timesofisrael.com/german...st-victims-living-in-the-former-soviet-union/

That 80.000 means a vastly more numerous amount in 1945.

Denial of communist crimes is a criminal offence in several East European countries, as is genocide denial in general in France and Switzerland; people have been prosecuted and convicted for denying the Armenian genocide in France.

About France, ANOTHER news update for you:

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-02-28/...french-relations-genocide-denial?_s=PM:EUROPE

I don't think ANYONE has been convicted yet for denying the Armenian genocide.

The figure of 2 million Jews dead was actually thrown out as an estimate by a Croatian leader at this precise time, a very good guesstimate since a very large number of Jews had been killed in 1941 in the Soviet Union by the Nazis and their Romanian allies, in addition to mass executions in the former Yugoslavia.

Well there is a very good source alright. Glad we agree on the "guesstimate".

This means that an estimate of the loss of life among European Jews for mid-1942 can rely on quite a few Nazi documents which spell out the casualties. Brack was writing only 18 days after the RSHA noted that 97,000 had been 'processed' in three gas vans at Chelmno, to name but one document. Add in the Stahlecker report and its supporting documents like the Jaeger report and a report of Einsatzkommando 2 which give corroborating bodycounts, not to mention the other Einsatzgruppen reports, plus the reports of the Kommandostab RFSS and the HSSPFs in the east, plus the reports of the Romanians, plus the reports of the Wehrmacht in Serbia, plus the reports of the numbers who had died in ghettos in Poland, plus the reports from the Generalgouvernement on shootings and deportations to Belzec and Sobibor, plus reports of Hitler's bodyguard (RSD) on their mass executions around Vinnitsa in spring 1942, plus...

All those reports on actual deaths (not just deportations) together work out to a few hundred thousands, which I'll not deny as possible. To get from there to six million, nice try.

Again, a wartime report. Neither the 1944 Soviet nor the 1945 Polish investigations of Belzec mentioned electrocution.

It is in the Nuremberg Trial Proceedings alright. You insinuated it was an isolated case at the Nuremberg trials (at Treblinka admittedly).

Eichmann was a brief visitor to an experimental site in the winter of 1941/2, and was not going to be accurate about the type of engine when testifying nearly 20 years later after the war on such a detail.

A Soviet submarine engine is a VERY SPECIFIC detail Nick. I don't think ANY submarine engine is WWII was anything OTHER than a diesel.

Since the witnesses report dismantling the wire mesh columns in December 1944

Source?

No, 'Vergasung' was quite clearly used to refer to gassing in multiple contexts in 1940s documentation, including in connection with the use of Zyklon B in delousing. Thus a Vergasungskeller was a gassing cellar.

Vergasung means gassifying. Indeed it is used for delousing as Zyklon B needed to be turned into a gas as well as in the context of the crematoria as the coal needed to be gassified. Gas chamber still is and always has been Gaskammer. Vergasungskeller is gassifying cellar or basement.

Once again you ignore OTHER DOCUMENTS that indicate that multiple corpse cremation was precisely what was intended. More specifically this one, an application for a patent by Topf in November 1942 (cited here)

A patent means SQUAT. British Railways also has a patent on a flying saucer. A patent doesn't mean something was actually built. It instead seems to undermine your argumentation as in the patent it is stated the current ovens were NOT continuous while some of the documents presented by Holohoaxsters as "genuine" clearly show they were used continuously and were capable of one cremation per muffle in 15 MINUTES.

There is nothing implausible about the multi-corpse cremation technique for starters. There is no evidence of forgery.

That's why it could and should be so damning for holohoaxsters. If all stamps and everything add up, yet it is a fake, this would mean that a lot of other documents called genuine can be cast into doubt. Cremations in 15 minutes are physically impossible. There are other indications pointing towards forgery. The patent you mentioned, stated that current ovens were NOT for continuous operation: it will be impossible to reduce to ashes only one corpse at a time AND which according to their design are loaded and operated periodically

http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/cremation/Furn-cap.shtml

Yet what do we see here?

Krema I: 3 x 2 muffles : 340 per day
Krema II: 5 x 3 muffles : 1440 per day
Krema III: 5 x 3 muffles : 1440 per day
Krema IV: 8 muffles : 768 per day
Krema V: 8 muffles : 768 per day

And these figures are assuming 24 hour contunuous operation. Why if such operation is IMPOSSIBLE? There is further evidence of tampering with figures: 1440 can be divided by 24 AND by the the number of muffles (5 times 3 = 15) which will result in one cremation per 15 minutes. 768 can be divided by 24 AND by the the number of muffles (8) which will result in one cremation per 15 minutes. 340 CAN NOT be divided by either 24 NOR by the number of muffles 6. Neither will result in an integer number. WHY? This document suggests Germans sucked at both basic math, engineering (assuming 24 hour continuous operation when such is impossible) and physics (one cremation in 15 minutes).

Prisoners didn't determine how much food was shipped to the camps, though, did they?

If way too little food was shipped, not only masses of jews would have starved to death, now isn't it? Jews were NOT the majority in a number of camps.

 

[Natan]

Are they new arrivals to the camp? I have seen deniers pull that stunt before, showing pictures of new arrivals and asking why they had not been starved? It is because they had come from occupied countries where the Jews were not held in the same level of contempt as by the Nazis, but the Nazis still forced Jews to be sent to the camps.

Yet when I say not everyone newly arriving was emaciated and hence fits with two in a muffle, I'm the bad guy and I am wrong?

 

[Natan]

The correct figure for Krema I would have been 3 ovens times 2 muffles per oven times 24 hours times 4 cremations per muffle per hour = 576 cremations per 24 hours instead of 340. Corrected the grand total would be 4992 instead of 4756. A likely explanation is 4992 was suspiciously too close to the nice round number of 5000 and hence at 2 bodies per muffle the ridiculous Soviet number of 10.000 per day would have been almost EXACTLY feasible. Shows you some evidence of math manipulation.

 

[Belz...]

I don't recall Hilberg ever running into any problems for calculating 5.1 million Holocaust deaths or being barred from entering Germany.

You'd think the Germans would be the first people to want to prove that the Holocaust never took place. It seems to be the exact opposite.

 

[Belz...]

Funny how for most topics it's generally accepted that in order to participate seriously in a discussion you do need to learn something, but deniers and CTs throw that out the window

Learning stuff messes with your mind, man ! All of the knowledge you find in books ? That's the conspiracy feeding you lies ! You try it. All of the evidence you can find supports the conspiracy, so you can see that my theory is true. Introspection is the only way. With it, you will reach whatever conclusion suits you.

 

[Clayton Moore]

That some Jews were doctors meant when the Nazis need one, they would sometimes use one. But there was no wholescale attempt to keep Jews alive with Jewish doctors.

Another now its genocide now it's not Holocaust hugging moment.

I doubt if a "Nazi" who was aware of the fabricated gassings/genocide in progress would chance a Jewish doctor.

 

[Natan]

Edited by LashL: 

Removed breaches of Rule 0 and Rule 10.

I'll write you a check for $10,000 if you can name a single historian who ever wrote about six million Jews being killed by the Nazis and who relied on four million Jews being killed at Auschwitz to get that total figure.

Ten big ones for you,

Edited by LashL: 

Removed breach of Rule 0.

Try it.

Kogon, Eugen. Der SS Staat. Berlin, 1974, p. 157. (3.5 to 4.5 million)

http://www.nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/appendix-2-01.html

I prefer cash over checks.

 

[Natan]

.. or how those dastardly jews managed to talk the Romani people into joining in on the conspiracy. I mean, where did Settela Steinbach and her family go, after they were put on the train at Westerbork?

Steinbach is such an unjewish yet typical Roma name.

 

[Natan]

Given that there were perfectly well documented sterilisation experiments at Auschwitz, there's actually nothing implausible or incredible about the testimony in question at all. It stands to reason that the doctors involved would at some stage in the two and a half years want to check on sperm counts to make sure their other experiments were working.

Some testimonies on the X ray "sterilizations" border the ridiculous and some exceed it, as per Dogzilla. You should know that a weight of 30 kg for an adult is not realistic even if you can find other "witness testimony" corroborating the story. The amount needed for sterilizing a person would further kill him such that such tests could never have been successful. This is also admitted. Experimental setup however with increasing dose levels could have pointed that out in just a few days on a limited number of subjects. Such studies wouldn't take months. I could point you towards another ridiculous testimony I've read with respect to X-ray sterilization but I don't think it is worth the bother to trace that back as it comes down to another soap story.

Like Clauberg, Schumann was searching for a convenient means of mass sterilization that would enable the Third Reich to carry out the biological destruction of conquered nations by "scientific methods"--through depriving people of their reproductive capacity. "X-ray sterilization" equipment was set up for Schumann in one of the barracks at Birkenau. Every so often, several dozen Jewish men and women prisoners were brought in. The sterilization experiments consisted of exposing the women's ovaries and the men's testes to X-rays. Schumann applied various intensities at various intervals in his search for the optimal dose of radiation. The exposure to radiation produced severe burns on the belly, groin, and buttocks areas of the subjects, and festering sores that were resistant to healing. Many subjects died from complications. The results of the X-ray sterilization experiments were unsatisfactory. In an article that he sent to Himmler in April 1944, titled "The Effect of X-Ray Radiation on the human Reproductive Glands," Schumann expressed a preference for surgical castration, as being quicker and more certain.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/aumed.html

 

[Pacal]

Oh, and while you're at it, you don't seem to realize that you were trying to argue that starvation in the camps wasn't something your Nazi heroes could possibly have done anything about, and that picture rather shoots a hole in your foot, the boat, and any pretense you had of justifying the starvation that did occur.

Denier "scholarship" in action.

I also would mention for all those Deniers who complain that the reason why Concentration Camp inmates were starving was the allied bombing campaign screwing up food distribution etc. They should bear in mind a few points.

1, Despite the allied bombing campaign the German civilian population including those living near the camps was not starving and had sufficent food.

2, Western Allied Prisoners of War had sufficent food and did not starve.

3, Generally the populations under German control did not starve. However there is a very large exception for the Poles and inhabitants of the Soviet Union whoose rations were deliberately set, by the Germans, at close to starvation levels.

So if theinmates of Concentration camps starved that was because they were at at minimum allowed to starve by people who could havwe prevented it.

 

[uke2se]

The cremation capacity at Auschwitz.

Please explain where in the official narrative says that Auschwitz was equipped with standard incinerators for modern day funeral cremation.

 

[uke2se]

Kogon, Eugen. Der SS Staat. Berlin, 1974, p. 157. (3.5 to 4.5 million)

http://www.nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/appendix-2-01.html

I prefer cash over checks.

Given that your source doesn't provide evidence for your claim that Kogon relies on the 4 million Auschwitz figure to reach his totals, this would be a failed challenge attempt.

 

[uke2se]

The correct figure for Krema I would have been 3 ovens times 2 muffles per oven times 24 hours times 4 cremations per muffle per hour = 576 cremations per 24 hours instead of 340. Corrected the grand total would be 4992 instead of 4756. A likely explanation is 4992 was suspiciously too close to the nice round number of 5000 and hence at 2 bodies per muffle the ridiculous Soviet number of 10.000 per day would have been almost EXACTLY feasible. Shows you some evidence of math manipulation.

No, it shows you making stuff up.

 

[uke2se]

This shows you the testimony is possibly forced or anyway invalid otherwise as bodies can not serve as "fuel". Physics 101. Maybe you like to believe in the possibility of human spontaneous self combustion, but I don't. What is the number of MJ/kg of the human body? If we were to believe the holohoaxsters, we would be able to build an single stage to orbit rocket on dead jew fat plus liquid oxygen combination.

First, this is extremely unfunny, and you'd do well to stop grinning about millions of dead people. It sort of shoots your whole lie about not being antisemitic out of the water.

Second, do you deny the inflammability of other animals as well, or is it only human bodies that are somehow magically unable to fuel a fire?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_jW9m_4cwO...lRfWo/s1600/Cattle-are-culled-and-bur-001.jpg

Physics 101 is right.

 

[uke2se]

Vergasung means gassifying. Indeed it is used for delousing as Zyklon B needed to be turned into a gas as well as in the context of the crematoria as the coal needed to be gassified. Gas chamber still is and always has been Gaskammer. Vergasungskeller is gassifying cellar or basement.

Actual German speakers disagree with you, Simon, but what do they know, right? They're probably all Joos or Joo-lovers or something.

 

[A'isha]

Kogon, Eugen. Der SS Staat. Berlin, 1974, p. 157. (3.5 to 4.5 million)

http://www.nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/appendix-2-01.html

I prefer cash over checks.

Wrong, because while Kogon's estimate of 3.5 to 4.5 million deaths at Auschwitz was high, his estimate of the corresponding total Holocaust death total was also high. He thought there were 7,125,000 deaths just in the concentration camp system, a total which didn't include things like the Einsatzgruppen murders.

So, no, Kogon is not an example of a historian who "wrote about six million Jews being killed by the Nazis and who relied on four million Jews being killed at Auschwitz to get that total figure".