General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[uke2se]

Since you seem to think a body can be cremated in 15 minutes, why don't you show me a super duper high tech crema oven of today that can do just that? I won't even ask you to show me a 1945 one.

Sorry, no shifting of the burden of evidence please. You made a claim, you show the evidence. Go.

 

[TSR]

Ah. I did. Soon as I did the post was sent to AAH and the thread was put on moderation.

That would be the post with the "pigs fly" smilies and nothing else?

*Devastating* refutation.

Or the one where you took one line from one memoir and sneered at it? That one certainly convinced me....

Tell you what, here's the list again. Let's start at the top and and book by book you can tell us why the information in them is in error (since I've noted that you, and your denier buddies are running like < completely accurate, but "uncivil" description redacted > from your hero Karl:

Albin, Kazimierz, Warrant of Arrest. Oswiecim: Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum, 1993 (Polish original 1989) – number 118
Badaev, Mikhail (ed.), Pamiat‘ khranit vsë. Smolenskaia oblast. Smolensk, 1995
Bialowna, Irena, ‘Aus der Geschichte des Reviers im Frauenlager in Birkenau’, in: Hamburger Institut für Sozialforschung (ed), Die Auschwitz-Hefte: Texte der polnischen Zeitschrift ‘Przeglad Lekarski’ über historischen, psychologischen und medizinischen Aspekte des Lebens und Sterbens in Auschwitz. Hamburg, 1987, Bd. I, pp.173-184, original as ‘Z historii rewiru w Brzezince’, Przeglad Lekarskii 1979, H.1, pp.164-175
Bielecki, Jerzy, Wer ein Leben rettet... Die Geschichte einer Liebe in Auschwitz. Berlin: wjs, 2009
Borowski, Tadeusz, This Way for the Gas, Ladies and Gentlemen. London: Penguin, 1976 (Polish original: 1946-8)
Brasse, Wilhelm, Wilhelm Brasse: Fotograf 3444, Auschwitz 1940-1945. Berlin: Revolver, 2011
Delbo, Charlotte, Auschwitz and After. New Haven: Yale University Press, 1995
Demant, Ebbo, Auschwitz. Direkt von der Rampe weg, Kaduk, Erber, Klehr: Drei Täter geben zu Protokoll. Reinbeck: Rowohlt Verlag, 1985
Gawalewicz, Adolf, Refleksje z poczekalni do gazu. Oswiecim: PMAB, 2009
Halgas, Kazimierz, ‘Die Arbeit im “Revier” für sowjetische Kriegsgefangene in Auschwitz. Ein Bericht’, in: Hamburger Institut für Sozialforschung (ed), Die Auschwitz-Hefte: Texte der polnischen Zeitschrift ‘Przeglad Lekarski’ über historischen, psychologischen und medizinischen Aspekte des Lebens und Sterbens in Auschwitz. Hamburg, 1987, Bd. I, pp.167-172, original as ‘Z pracy w tzw. rewirach dla jencow radzieckich w Oswiecimiu i w Gross-Rosen’, Przeglad Lekarski 1980, H.1, pp.162-171
Halon, Edwaed, W cieniu Auschwitz. Oswiecim: PMAB, 2003
Hautval, Adelaide, Medezin gegen die Menschlichkeit. Die Weigerung einer nach Auschwitz deportierten Aerztin, an medizinischen Experimenten teilzunehmen. Berlin: Dietz, 2008 (French original: 2006)
Kielar, Wieslaw, Anus Mundi. Fünf Jahre Auschwitz. Frankfurt am Main: Fischer, 1982 (Polish original: 1972)
Kita, Mieczyslaw, Ja tam bylem. Wspomnienia Mieczyslawa Kity, bylego wieznia Auschwitz, Neuengamme, Gross-Rosen, Flossenbürg-Hersbruck i Dachau. Oswiecim: PMAB, 2009
Kolasinski, Bogdan, Jakim cudem jesczcze zyje? Oswiecim: PMAB, 2003
Komenda, Janina, ‘Frauen im Revier von Birkenau’, in: Hamburger Institut für Sozialforschung (ed), Die Auschwitz-Hefte: Texte der polnischen Zeitschrift ‘Przeglad Lekarski’ über historischen, psychologischen und medizinischen Aspekte des Lebens und Sterbens in Auschwitz. Hamburg, 1987, Bd. I, pp.185-197, original as ‘W rewirze Brzezinki’, Przeglad Lekarskii 1982, H.1-3, pp.194-205
Kossak, Zofia, Z otchlani. Oswiecim: PMAB, 2004 (original: 1947)
Kowalczyk, August, A Barbed Wire Refrain. Oswiecim: ABSM, 2001
Kowalski, Stanislaw, Niezapomniana przeszlosc. Häftling 4410 opowiada. Oswiecim: PMAB, 2001 (original: 1985)
Kret, Jozef, ‘Ein Tag in der Strafkompanie’, Hefte von Auschwitz, 1, 1959, pp.157-203
Langbein, Hermann, Die Stärkeren. Ein Bericht aus Auschwitz und anderen Konzentrationslagern. Cologne: Bund-Verlag, 1982 (original: 1949)
Lepkowski, Andrzej, Tak bylo... Birkenau-Buchenwald-Ohrdruf-Crawinkel-Leitmeritz. Oswiecim: PMAB, 2006
Lewinska, Pelagia, Vingt mois a Auschwitz. Paris: Nagel, 1945
Lingens, Ella, ‘Dr. Adelajada Hautval’, Przeglad Lekarski-Oswiecim 1, 1964, pp.119-121
Lingens-Reiner, Ella: Prisoners of Fear, London: Victor Gollancz Ltd., 1948
Lorska, Dorota, ‘Block 10 in Auschwitz’, in: Hamburger Institut für Sozialforschung (ed), Die Auschwitz-Hefte: Texte der polnischen Zeitschrift ‘Przeglad Lekarski’ über historischen, psychologischen und medizinischen Aspekte des Lebens und Sterbens in Auschwitz. Hamburg, 1987, Bd. I, pp.209-212, original as ‘Block X w Oswiecimiu’, Przeglad Lekarskii 1965, H.1, pp.99-104
Mercier, Antoine, Un train parmi tant d’autres. 17 juillet 1942. Memoires du convoi 6. Paris: le cherche midi, 2008
Mirchuk, Petro, In the German Mills of Death. New York: Vantage Press, 1976
Musiol, Jozef, Czlowiek zbrodnia. Oswiecim: PMAB, 1998
Piechowski, Kazimierz; Eugenia Bożena Kaczyńska; Michał Ziółkowski; Siegfried Schmidt, Ich war eine Nummer... Geschichten aus Auschwitz. Oswiecim: SMAB, 2008
Piekarski, Kon, Escaping Hell. The Story of a Polish Underground Officer in Auschwitz and Buchenwald. Toronto: Dundurn Press, 1989
Piekut-Warszawska, Elzbieta, ‘Kinder in Auschwitz. Erinnerungen einer Krankenschwester’, in: Hamburger Institut für Sozialforschung (ed), Die Auschwitz-Hefte: Texte der polnischen Zeitschrift ‘Przeglad Lekarski’ über historischen, psychologischen und medizinischen Aspekte des Lebens und Sterbens in Auschwitz. Hamburg, 1987, Bd. I, pp.227-229, original as ‘Dzieci w obozie oswiecimskim (Wspomnienia pielegniarki), Przeglad Lekarski, 1967, H.1, pp.204-5
Pogozhev, A.A and Sten’kin, P.A., Smert’ stoiala u nas za spinoi. Pobeg iz Osventsima. Ostat’sia v zhivykh, Moscow, 2005
Poliakov, Leon, Auschwitz. Paris: Juillard, 1964 (reprint: Gallimard, 2006)
Pozner, Vladimir, Descente aux enfers. Recits de deportes et de S.S. d’Auschwitz. Paris: Juillard, 1980
Projektgruppe Belarus im Jugendclub Courage Köln e.V. (ed), ‚Dann kam die deutsche Macht’. Weissrussische Kinderhäftlinge in deutschen Konzentrationslagern 1941-1945. Eine Dokumentation. Cologne, 1999
Rajewski, Ludwik, Oswiecim w systemie RSHA. Warsaw, 1946
Rosenberg, Otto, A Gypsy in Auschwitz. London: London House, 1999
Rozanski, Zenon: Mützen ab , , ., Eine Reportage aus der Strafkompanie des KZ Auschwitz, Verlag »Das andere Deutschland«, Hannover, 1948
Rushton, Colin, Spectator in Hell. A British Soldier’s Story of Imprisonment in Auschwitz. Chichester: Sommersdale, 2007 (original: 1998)
Sobolewicz, Tadeusz, Aus der Hölle zurück. Von der Willkür des Ueberlebens im Konzentrationslager. Frankfurt am Main: Fischer, 1999 (original 1993)
Szczerbowski, Kazimierz, ‘Der erste Schreiber im “Revier\” von Auschwitz. Erinnerungen’ in: Hamburger Institut für Sozialforschung (ed), Die Auschwitz-Hefte: Texte der polnischen Zeitschrift ‘Przeglad Lekarski’ über historischen, psychologischen und medizinischen Aspekte des Lebens und Sterbens in Auschwitz. Hamburg, 1987, Bd. I, pp.155-8; original as ‘Wspomnienia pierszwego pisarza “rewiru” oswiecimskiego’, Przeglad Lekarski 1970, H. 1, pp.198-201
Szmaglewska, Seweryna, Smoke over Birkenau. Oswiecim, 2001
Winter, Walter, Winter Time. Memoirs of a German Sinto who survived Auschwitz. Hatfield: University of Hertfordshire Press, 2004 (German original: 1999)
Zywulska, Krystyna, I Survived Auschwitz. Oswiecim, 2004

1. Pogonowski. Listy z Auschwitz
2. Oświęcimskie listy Henryka Serejskiego
3. Hoess, Commandant in Auschwitz

 

[TSR]

http://www.theholocaustexplained.org/public/cms/70/92/175/397/QeiYkh_web.jpg

Nor do those ladies.

I would agree.

*Now* all you have to do is document which camp they were interred at, how long they had been there, what their crimes were to have deserved being sent to the camp in the first place.


Oh, and while you're at it, you don't seem to realize that you were trying to argue that starvation in the camps wasn't something your Nazi heroes could possibly have done anything about, and that picture rather shoots a hole in your foot, the boat, and any pretense you had of justifying the starvation that did occur.

Denier "scholarship" in action.

 

[Loss Leader]

http://www.theholocaustexplained.org/public/cms/70/92/175/397/QeiYkh_web.jpg

Nor do those ladies.

I don't know what this is a picture of. Your link gives it no context whatsoever. However, assuming it is a picture of Jews in April, 1945: No. You do not get to move your goalposts or change your argument. You have already agreed that Jews in camps starved to death in 1945. You were only arguing the reason that they starved to death. You said:

The starving was not intentional. Everyone but you seems to know that. The Allies bombed the supply lines for a few months at the end of the war. It doesn't take long to starve someone.

Are you clear on that? The starving was not intentional.

You agreed that the Jewish prisoners were starved. You argued that it was because the allies interrupted the supply lines. I showed you Nazi guards and German civilians living in and around the camps who did not die of starvation. The picture of German civilians showed them walking down path lined on both sides with emaciated corpses. Your answer cannot be that Jews did not starve to death.

 

[000063]

The starving was not intentional. Everyone but you seems to know that. The Allies bombed the supply lines for a few months at the end of the war. It doesn't take long to starve someone.

Are you clear on that? The starving was not intentional.

Your usual complete lack of evidence aside, Traynor tried that already, claiming that the winter hit everyone hard. I pointed out that the period in question was 9 months long, and asked him what winter is 9 months. He never responded.

Ah. I did. Soon as I did the post was sent to AAH and the thread was put on moderation.

Then provide a link, either here on in in the AAH thread. As I recall, your "addressing" consisted of scoffing at the books and laughing dogs. Like you do with just about any source you can't hand-wave.

 

[Belz...]

http://www.theholocaustexplained.org/public/cms/70/92/175/397/QeiYkh_web.jpg

Nor do those ladies.

You do realise, of course, that this completely demolishes your previous claims about the starvation of the inmates ?

 

[Moss]

Simon666,
I'm curious what kind of evidence you'd accept. Because it seems clear that you don't accept that which is actually there.

 

[FluffyPersian]

Since you seem to think a body can be cremated in 15 minutes, why don't you show me a super duper high tech crema oven of today that can do just that? I won't even ask you to show me a 1945 one.

So Nick explained this to you. While the Nazis only needed chunks/cinders, a commercial crematorium today would be out of business pretty fast if that's what they handed back to relatives.

Your only response was to mention that a few urns had been found and, when it was explained to you that the use of urns was discontinued early on, you simply circled back to your original question.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Firstly, my invite was for you to explain why all the memoirs listed were wrong. Cherrypicking one title out of 153 clearly doesn't meet that standard.

Secondly, quoting from a publisher's blurb doesn't demonstrate that a memoir is wrong. To do that, you would actually have to read the thing, and grasp the historical context, and explain to us what genuinely violates the historical record in Buergenthal's account.

That would require knowing things like the Nazis lowered what they considered to be working age in 1944, because of the labour shortage, allowing a small number of 10+ year olds to pretend to be older and thus slip through the system. In 1944, the Nazis explicitly stated the working age in occupied Belorussia to be 10. In the camps, it went down to 12-14 in the same year.

It would also require knowing that in some ghettos, the Nazis tolerated the survival of small groups of children for a variety of reasons depending on the locality, sometimes because the children were relatively well hidden, sometimes because the local Nazis were less bloodthirsty than others, sometimes because a compromise was made to spare family members of skilled workers but not unskilled workers, and so on.
Finally, it would help if you could explain to us the logic of your apparent claim where the survival of one person refutes the death of another. I've never had a coherent explanation from a denier why that follows logically at all.

And so on. Simply amazing. Just as amazing as recent mention that Jewish doctors were there to assist women giving birth.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8504410&postcount=5037

Women giving birth in a death camp?

 

[Clayton Moore]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bergen_Belsen_Liberation_05.jpg

Description
English: Liberation of Belsen Concentration Camp April 1945: Scene inside the cleansing station, nicknamed the "Human Laundry", which was housed in a former stable for cavalry horses at the newly established hospital for Belsen inmates in Hohne Military Barracks. The photograph shows some of the 60 tables, each staffed by two German doctors and two German nurses, at which the sick were washed and deloused.

http://collections.yadvashem.org/photosarchive/en-us/4065195.html

Bergen Belsen, Germany, a photograph of a Jewish young man after the liberation. 1945

http://collections.yadvashem.org/photosarchive/en-us/4065196.html

Regensburg, Germany, a group photograph after the liberation, 05/1945

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/bergenbelsen/OldPhotos/BelsenChildren.jpg

Child survivors at Bergen-Belsen

Doesn't look like these people were starved.

 

[Charles Traynor]

What would you call it? Approximately 35,000 people died in Belsen between January and April 1945 due to starvation and overwork.

I call it a tragedy as I did before. You and others here need to get your heads around the fact that most of the individuals who expired at Belsen between those dates died from disease and not from starvation.

It has been suggested by yourself and others that the Germans deliberately starved inmates to death at Belsen. I expect you to provide the forum with evidence to substantiate this scandalous allegation.

Although no proof has been presented by exterminationists to show the Germans deliberately planned to starve anyone to death at Belsen, there is ample evidence showing that the Allies had a deliberate policy of starving people to death during WWII.

The British Starvation blockade of Greece resulted in the death of half a million innocents.

OXFAM, the Oxford Commitee for Famine Relief, was founded in 1942, especially to lobby the British government to change its blockade policy but, although an exception was made in the case of Greece after some half million Greeks had died of starvation, Churchill and his ministers refused to change tack.

After Day Break, Ben Shephard, p. 219

The full text can be read here*:

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee226/mralbertfish/starvation1.jpg


The Bengal Famine resulted in the death of 2.5 million innocents.

It turned out Churchill’s decision earlier in the year to divert shipping from the Indian Ocean to the Mediterranean (in order to attack Italy) had removed much of the transport needed to bring relief supplies from abroad.

After Day Break, Ben Shephard, p. 229

The full text can be read here*:

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee226/mralbertfish/starvation2.jpg


*The still images were taken from Denierbud's film Buchenwald.

 

[Belz...]

Doesn't look like these people were starved.

Okay, Clayton. No Holocaust. So, where did those 5 million Jews go ?

 

[000063]

I call it a tragedy as I did before. You and others here need to get your heads around the fact that most of the individuals who expired at Belsen between those dates died from disease and not from starvation.

It has been suggested by yourself and others that the Germans deliberately starved inmates to death at Belsen. I expect you to provide the forum with evidence to substantiate this scandalous allegation.

Although no proof has been presented by exterminationists to show the Germans deliberately planned to starve anyone to death at Belsen, there is ample evidence showing that the Allies had a deliberate policy of starving people to death during WWII.

The British Starvation blockade of Greece resulted in the death of half a million innocents.



After Day Break, Ben Shephard, p. 219

The full text can be read here*:

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee226/mralbertfish/starvation1.jpg


The Bengal Famine resulted in the death of 2.5 million innocents.



After Day Break, Ben Shephard, p. 229

The full text can be read here*:

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee226/mralbertfish/starvation2.jpg


*The still images were taken from Denierbud's film Buchenwald.

Tu Quoque. When are you going to provide evidence of the 9-month winter that hit everybody hard? Or even of your newer claim that most of the deaths were from disease? What do you call it when jailors refuse to give their prisoners adequate medical care?

 

[Natan]

The starving was not intentional. Everyone but you seems to know that. The Allies bombed the supply lines for a few months at the end of the war. It doesn't take long to starve someone.

Are you clear on that? The starving was not intentional.

I was being sarcastic in my first sentence. I am very clear on that.

 

[Natan]

I'm sure it can be done. the crematoria were industrial scale, operating almost full time and dealing with corpses that were probably weighing at around 70lbs. The things basically fueled themselves, and with no need to provide relatives wit remains could produce large piece remains pretty quickly. Couple that with the body pits, and you have a lot of remains disappearing quickly.

The crematoria were not "industrial scale" or "industrial crematoria" but just like other civilian crematoria. The idea that they "fueled themselves" is another holo hoax mythology that fat jews burned better and were put at the bottom of those open air cremation pyres, and contradicts entirely with your assertion that the bodies were probably weighing around 70lbs, which ALSO contradicts in turn with the usual legend that most were gassed without registering upon arrival and didn't have the time to be starved and overworked to near death first.

 

[Natan]

Sorry, no shifting of the burden of evidence please. You made a claim, you show the evidence. Go.

Will Nizkor do? A little less than one hour is the answer and a technical lower limit apparently if you read up more.


From the Internet Cremation Society FAQ:

[ http://www.cremation.org:80/faq.shtml]

"Q. At what temperature is the cremation done and is this a standard or do some facilities vary? How long does the actual cremation process take and does this also vary with temperature?

"A. The temperature at which cremations are done vary based upon the retort manufacturer, but most machines operate between 1,500 to 1,900 degrees F. The actual cremation time again varies depending upon the type of machine. Low capacity retorts take approximately 3 hours to complete a cremation while high capacity machines take less than one hour. In addition to the type of retort, the size of the individual and the number of cremations conducted during the day also affect the time. For example, in the retort we operate, the first cremation of the day takes about two hours and the second takes about an hour. That is because the retort already has a high internal temperature at the beginning of the second cremation.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/auschwitz/crematoria/cremation-009.html

 

[Loss Leader]

Doesn't look like these people were starved.

You already agreed that Jews in the camps starved to death in the winter and spring of 1945. Your only argument was with the reason they starved. You cannot now argue that there was not starvation. Jews in the camps died of starvation and guards and civilians near the camps didn't. Can you explain this in a way that doesn't reveal a strong desire on the part of the Nazis to murder Jews?

 

[uke2se]

Will Nizkor do? A little less than one hour is the answer and a technical lower limit apparently if you read up more.


From the Internet Cremation Society FAQ:

[ http://www.cremation.org:80/faq.shtml]

"Q. At what temperature is the cremation done and is this a standard or do some facilities vary? How long does the actual cremation process take and does this also vary with temperature?

"A. The temperature at which cremations are done vary based upon the retort manufacturer, but most machines operate between 1,500 to 1,900 degrees F. The actual cremation time again varies depending upon the type of machine. Low capacity retorts take approximately 3 hours to complete a cremation while high capacity machines take less than one hour. In addition to the type of retort, the size of the individual and the number of cremations conducted during the day also affect the time. For example, in the retort we operate, the first cremation of the day takes about two hours and the second takes about an hour. That is because the retort already has a high internal temperature at the beginning of the second cremation.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/auschwitz/crematoria/cremation-009.html

It will do nicely. Now, what part of the generally accepted view of the holocaust do you believe you have crushed with this daring raid into the hoaxters own website?

 

[Straw Man]

The crematoria were not "industrial scale" or "industrial crematoria" but just like other civilian crematoria. The idea that they "fueled themselves" is another holo hoax mythology that fat jews burned better and were put at the bottom of those open air cremation pyres, and contradicts entirely with your assertion that the bodies were probably weighing around 70lbs, which ALSO contradicts in turn with the usual legend that most were gassed without registering upon arrival and didn't have the time to be starved and overworked to near death first.

What do you make of this memo, Simon? Would you not call it industrial scale?

I told him that at this time 3 double-muffle ovens are in operation, with a capacity of 250 per day. Further, currently under construction are 5 triple muffle ovens with a daily capacity of 800. Today and in the next few days, 2 eight-muffle ovens, each with a daily capacity of 800, will come on consignment, redirected from Mogilew

 

[Straw Man]

It has been suggested by yourself and others that the Germans deliberately starved inmates to death at Belsen. I expect you to provide the forum with evidence to substantiate this scandalous allegation.

Although no proof has been presented by exterminationists to show the Germans deliberately planned to starve anyone to death at Belsen, there is ample evidence showing that the Allies had a deliberate policy of starving people to death during WWII.

If you have a look here, you will see that the Germans did plan to starve Jews and others to death.

That we sentence 1.2 million Jews to die of hunger should be noted only marginally. It is a matter, of course, that should the Jews not starve to death it would, we hope, result in a speeding up of anti-Jewish measures.