Scientology abandoned by Hubbard's granddaughter & Miscavige's father

It is both entertaining and predictable to witness Justinian following the $cientologist party line about answering questions. Hie credibility rating is zero.
 
The whole "no credentials" gambit would have come across a lot less hypocritical, had Justinian2 not earlier declared the time share business a fraud (while having no verified credentials in real estate or finance), the government of Florida fraudulent (while having no verified credentials in law or law enforcement), most governments worldwide as poorly conceived and managed (while having no verified credentials in government or political science), the military as misguided (while having no verified credentials in military leadership or military science), and that Scientology is an effective form of therapy (while having no verified credentials in psychology, psychiatry, public health, or epidemiology).

There is one area -- his claimed OT status -- where no one is disputing his credentials, and yet he has evaded or ignored almost all questions about that, rendering that credential meaningless.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
Myriad said:
The whole "no credentials" gambit would have come across a lot less hypocritical, had Justinian2 not earlier declared the time share business a fraud (while having no verified credentials in real estate or finance), the government of Florida fraudulent (while having no verified credentials in law or law enforcement), most governments worldwide as poorly conceived and managed (while having no verified credentials in government or political science), the military as misguided (while having no verified credentials in military leadership or military science), and that Scientology is an effective form of therapy (while having no verified credentials in psychology, psychiatry, public health, or epidemiology).

There is one area -- his claimed OT status -- where no one is disputing his credentials, and yet he has evaded or ignored almost all questions about that, rendering that credential meaningless.

Respectfully,
Myriad
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Over the Top? Out To Lunch?
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
I gave you an opinion from those with credentials. I haven't uttered an opinion, I've stuck to the facts. The FDA emphatically and unequivocally say that there is no medical application of the e-meter. That is backed up by the science. Not opinion.

So, I ask again, what are your credentials for disputing the FDA's findings? Or do you agree with them that the e-meter is medically worthless?
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Your statement is worthless. No Scientologist I know has ever thought that merely holding the cans of an emeter would improve his health.

If your doctor puts on his glasses, that might improve your health.
Likewise, if an auditior uses his emeter it will improve your sessions.

Still haven't seen any qualifications or germane arguments by the antagonists of Scientology.
 
Justinian2 said:
I am pretty broad minded as to what a person's qualifications could be. A person that has raised children with good success has demonstrated that he can guide another through life. A successful parent has given good advice and is capable of giving good advice.
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Pot meet kettle. Kettle meet pot.


It was an act of bigamy, as Hubbard had abandoned, but not divorced, his first wife and children as soon as he left the Navy (he divorced his first wife more than a year after he had remarried). Both women allege Hubbard physically abused them. He is also alleged to have once kidnapped Sara's infant, Alexis, taking her to Cuba. Later, he disowned Alexis, claiming he was not her father and that she was actually Jack Parsons' child. Sara filed for divorce in late 1950, citing that Hubbard was, unknown to her, still legally bound to his first wife at the time of their marriage. Her divorce papers also accused Hubbard of kidnapping their baby daughter Alexis, and of conducting "systematic torture, beatings, strangulations and scientific torture experiments.

That year, Hubbard also married his third wife, Mary Sue Whipp, to whom he remained married until his death (though separated by the early 70s, when Mary Sue was incarcerated for her involvement in Operation Snow White). With Mary Sue, Hubbard fathered four more children—Diana, Quentin, Suzette and Arthur—over the next six years.

Quentin Hubbard, born in 1954, was groomed to one day replace him as head of the Scientology organization. Quentin was uninterested in his father's plans and had preferred to become a pilot. He was also deeply depressed, allegedly because he was homosexual. Quentin attempted suicide in 1974, then in 1976 died under circumstances that might have been suicide or murder.

Hubbard was regarded as abusive by some family members and former associates. He married his second wife, Sara Northrup, on August 10, 1946, without revealing his existing marriage and children. This was one reason for her later divorce from Hubbard. During those legal proceedings, Northrup alleged abuse by Hubbard, and produced a letter she received from Margaret "Polly" Grubb during the proceedings recounting her treatment by him. It reads, in part,

“ Ron is not normal... I had hoped you could straighten him out. Your charges probably sound fantastic to the average person – but I've been through it – the beatings, threats on my life, all the sadistic traits which you charge – 12 years of it."
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http://exscn.net/content/view/137/100/

What lovely family role model Hubbard turned out to be.:rolleyes:
What were you saying about credentials?

Quote:
"Don't ever defend.
Always attack"
Scientology's attitude to criticism
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dafydd said:
Over the Top? Out To Lunch?
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The bridge starts with Life Repair and progresses through twenty steps to clear. The courses give over half the gains.

If you don't know for certain that the Emeter works, then discussing even the first step - Life Repair - is folly. Discussing OT is absurd.

Every Scientologist knows with 100% certainty that the Emeter works in the application for which it was designed.

That's 100% certainty! There's no room for other opinions. Scientologists have a solid belief that the Emeter works.

If you don't believe in the Emeter, get a demonstration in Scientology.

A prerequsite for these discussions is a belief that the Emeter works. If you don't believe that the Emeter works, you won't believe in anything else, so why argue?
 
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Arguing Scientology with a person that doesn't believe that the Emeter works is like arguing a newspaper article with someone that doesn't believe that people can read.
 
Justinian2 said:
The bridge starts with Life Repair and progresses through twenty steps to clear. The courses give over half the gains.

If you don't know for certain that the Emeter works, then discussing even the first step - Life Repair - is folly. Discussing OT is absurd.

Every Scientologist knows with 100% certainty that the Emeter works in the application for which it was designed.

That's 100% certainty! There's no room for other opinions. Scientologists have a solid belief that the Emeter works.

If you don't believe in the Emeter, get a demonstration in Scientology.

A prerequsite for these discussions is a belief that the Emeter works. If you don't believe that the Emeter works, you won't believe in anything else, so why argue?
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Wait, so before we ask questions about the E-meter we are required to believe that it works? :boggled:
 
Justinian2 said:
Your statement is worthless. No Scientologist I know has ever thought that merely holding the cans of an emeter would improve his health.

If your doctor puts on his glasses, that might improve your health.
Likewise, if an auditior uses his emeter it will improve your sessions.
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Obfuscation.

Judge Gerhardt A. Gesell:

Hubbard and his fellow Scientologists developed the notion of using an E-Meter to aid auditing. Substantial fees were charged for the meter and for auditing sessions using the meter. They repeatedly and explicitly represented that such auditing effectuated cures of many physical and mental illnesses. An individual processed with the aid of the E-Meter was said to reach the intended goal of 'clear' and was led to believe that there was reliable scientific proof that once cleared many, indeed most, illnesses would successfully be cured. Auditing was guaranteed to be successful. All this was and is false.
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From the FDA court order:

2.Each E-meter shall bear the following warning, printed in 11-point leadedtype, permanently affixed to the front of the E-meter so that it is clearlyvisible when the E-meter is used, sold or distributed:

The E-meter is not medically or scientifically useful for the diagnosis,treatment or prevention of any disease. It is not medically or scientifically capable of improving the health or bodily functions of anyone.

3.Any and all items of written, printed, or graphic matter which directly orindirectly refers
(sic)
to the E-meter or to Dianetics and/or Scientologyand/or auditing or processing shall not be further used or distributedunless and until the item shall bear the following prominent printedwarning permanently affixed to said item on the outside front cover or onthe title page in letters no smaller than 11-point leaded type:


Warning

The device known as a Hubbard Electrometer, or E-meter, used inauditing, a process of Scientology and Dianetics, is not medically or scientifically useful for the diagnosis, treatment or prevention of any disease. It is not medically or scientifically capable of improving the healthor bodily functions of anyone.
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Not useful for the diagnosis, treatment or prevention of any disease.

If you don't think that this enforced labelling is in any way contrary to the claims of Scientology, then why did the Church spend 2 trials, 3 appeals and 8 years trying to get the ruling overturned? Why did they resist at all instead of simply saying "oh, don't worry about taking us to court, we'll happily put a warning label on it of our own accord"?

I know the facts aren't what you'd like them to be but, despite what you may have been told, reality doesn't conform to your wishes.

Still haven't seen any qualifications or germane arguments by the antagonists of Scientology.
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I have given you the qualified opinion of the FDA. How are you qualified to dispute that opinion?
 
Justinian2 said:
Every Scientologist knows with 100% certainty that the Emeter works in the application for which it was designed.

That's 100% certainty! There's no room for other opinions.
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Cool. Please link to the peer-reviewed journals in which the papers testing this claims have been published.
 
Krikkiter said:
Wait, so before we ask questions about the E-meter we are required to believe that it works? :boggled:
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It would be insane to discuss Scientology with anybody that doesn't believe that the emeter works.

It only takes moments for the Church of Scientology to give you a demonstration of the Emeter and an hour for an Introductory session. It is insane to discuss the emeter to anyone that won't avail himself of those opportunities. A demonstration is worth a thousand words to each person that wants to know.
 
Justinian2 said:
Arguing Scientology with a person that doesn't believe that the Emeter works is like arguing a newspaper article with someone that doesn't believe that people can read.
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Wrong. Silly analogy. Can you link to a peer reviewed journal that proves that the emeter works? Your campfire stories are not enough.
 
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Justinian2 said:
It would be insane to discuss Scientology with anybody that doesn't believe that the emeter works.

It only takes moments for the Church of Scientology to give you a demonstration of the Emeter and an hour for an Introductory session. It is insane to discuss the emeter to anyone that won't avail himself of those opportunities. A demonstration is worth a thousand words to each person that wants to know.
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The emeter does not work. See the FDA report.
 
Justinian2 said:
It would be insane to discuss Scientology with anybody that doesn't believe that the emeter works.

It only takes moments for the Church of Scientology to give you a demonstration of the Emeter and an hour for an Introductory session. It is insane to discuss the emeter to anyone that won't avail himself of those opportunities. A demonstration is worth a thousand words to each person that wants to know.
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So you've ruled yourself insane.
 
Justinian, just a repeat post of my question, so it doesn't fall off the top of the thread...

Do you believe Christianity, Judaism and Islam can all be correct about the divinity, or lack there of, of Jesus, yes or no?
 
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Justinian2 said:
...Still haven't seen any qualifications or germane arguments by the antagonists of Scientology.
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Justinian2 said:
...Every Scientologist knows with 100% certainty that the Emeter works in the application for which it was designed.

That's 100% certainty! There's no room for other opinions. Scientologists have a solid belief that the Emeter works.

If you don't believe in the Emeter, get a demonstration in Scientology.

A prerequsite for these discussions is a belief that the Emeter works. If you don't believe that the Emeter works, you won't believe in anything else, so why argue?
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Of course I don't believe in the E-meter.
It's been shown to be a cheap fraud.
 
Justinian2 said:
It would be insane to discuss Scientology with anybody that doesn't believe that the emeter works.

It only takes moments for the Church of Scientology to give you a demonstration of the Emeter and an hour for an Introductory session. It is insane to discuss the emeter to anyone that won't avail himself of those opportunities. A demonstration is worth a thousand words to each person that wants to know.
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Whether the blatant illogic and unwarranted arrogance in this post are intentional or unkowing, it is an accurate and telling representation of cults in general and Scientology in particular. You can also note the similarities with the cry of many Christians who say "If you just let Jesus into your heart then you will understand. Until then, you just won't get it."

There is only the thinnest facade of false rationality.
 
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