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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

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It was Mulder

"No, I don't, because Christianity is not anti-semitic. Some people who are or claim(ed) to be nominal Christians were/are, but it is not a teaching of the Bible. Christians are taught that the Jewish people are the special people of God, chosen and protected by Him. Through the sacrifice of Jesus, non-Jews can be adopted into this "family" (for want of a better word) and become joint-heirs with the Jewish nation in all God's promises"

And to say Christinaity has not been anti semitc is a delusion.
You claimed "I read in this thread that Christians have not been anti semitic."

What you posted above does not support that claim at all. In fact Mulder says Christians have been anti-semitic.

And what do you think is the bigger problem today, Christian anti-semites who last wielded power 70 years ago or Muslim anti-semites who run the Gaza strip, Iran, and other places and are engaged in an ongoing campaign to kill Jews?
 
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What you posted above does not support that claim at all. In fact Mulder says Christians have been anti-semitic.

No, he says people who claimed to be "nominal Christians" have been anti-Semitic, but that "Christianity is not anti-semitic".

Apparently Martin Luther wasn't a Real Christian. And the Simon Wiesenthal Center didn't write a letter to the head of Iceland's national radio about their annual broadcast of anti-Semitic Easter hymns.

And what do you think is the bigger problem today, Christian anti-semites who last wielded power 70 years ago or Muslim anti-semites who run the Gaza strip, Iran, and other places and are engaged in an ongoing campaign to kill Jews?

And if European Christians hadn't passed their virulent brand of anti-Semitism to the Arab Muslims 70 years ago, we wouldn't be worrying about that today.

Denying the past is not going to help the present.
 
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stating all muslims are inherently anti semitic is as crazy as stating all Christians are anti semetic, there is a long history of it in both these religions, and to deny that it has infected both religions is a delusion.
 
Given that the Ultra-Orthodox are now going to be conscripted, how will that affect Israeli politics?
 
Gaza's ruling Hamas has criticized a Palestinian official for visiting a memorial at the Nazi death camp of Auschwitz and paying respects to its 1.5 million victims there, most of them Jews.

Hamas official Fawzi Barhoum, expressing the Islamic militant group's position, claimed Wednesday that the Holocaust "is a big lie."




Barhoum made the stupid mistake of actually saying that out loud. "Anti-Zionists" must remember to keep those opinions private, until the political climate becomes more hospitable.
 
Given that the Ultra-Orthodox are now going to be conscripted, how will that affect Israeli politics?

In the short term, it will create some serious internal problems. In the long term, it's one of the healthiest things the government could have done.
 
Given that the Ultra-Orthodox are now going to be conscripted, how will that affect Israeli politics?

In the short term, it will create some serious internal problems. In the long term, it's one of the healthiest things the government could have done.

It was somewhat unfair to the Jewish taxpayers who were initially paying for the group. Initially, the Ultra-Orthadox were allowed to collect welfare from the government to attend religious classes (they still are), were exempt from conscription, and could have as many kids as they wanted on the government dime.

In other words, if they just went with the crazy, they were given free reign to be lazy.


It is an unhealthy situation politically, socially, and economically; and as someone whose US tax dollars directly supports that behavior, I see it as somewhat troubling. Especially when they are allowed to engage in gender discrimination which is supported and protected by their special status.
 
gee...do you think there will be some disagreement here?
there will be those that will claim that israel is never wrong, and those with clearer perspectives.
those that have compassion for palestine will be called truthers and anti-semites.

nothing will ever change.

Nothing will ever change if we speak and think in general and vague terms.

  • What are the clearer perspectives?
  • Do you see that what you have done here is present two options on the extreme sides of the scale?
  • "those who have compassion for palestine"?? What is Palestine? Where did "Palestine" come from? Explain what, in fact, gives Pelestine the right to exist?
I can ask what gives the Cherokee Nation the right to exist. What would you say to that?

I can also ask what gives the UN the right to exist. Well, that answer is clear. Just about every Nation on Earth gives the UN the right to exist. So the UN gave Israel the right to exist. What do you think of that?

If I was to tell you that the position you take is solely due to the opion of your peers and friends, what would you think about that?

I have not made a decision on this issue.
I have not made a decision on this issue because there is a lot to learn before I do.
I have not made a decision on this issue and I find it amusing how others are sure of where they stand and yet they know less than I do about this topic..
 
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stating all muslims are inherently anti semitic is as crazy as stating all Christians are anti semetic, there is a long history of it in both these religions, and to deny that it has infected both religions is a delusion.

I'm not seeing where anyone claimed all Muslims are inherently anti-Semitic. At the same time, I think it would be reasonable to claim that anti-Semitism is common among Muslims and more common than among Christians.


No, he says people who claimed to be "nominal Christians" have been anti-Semitic, but that "Christianity is not anti-semitic".

Apparently Martin Luther wasn't a Real Christian. And the Simon Wiesenthal Center didn't write a letter to the head of Iceland's national radio about their annual broadcast of anti-Semitic Easter hymns.

You seem to be arguing with Wildcat over Muldur's no-true-Scotsman fallacy when you both agree he used that fallacy. :)

And if European Christians hadn't passed their virulent brand of anti-Semitism to the Arab Muslims 70 years ago, we wouldn't be worrying about that today.

Denying the past is not going to help the present.

Honest question, do you think that's the case? Is it your opinion that modern Arab anti-Semitism is rooted in Nazism?
 
Honest question, do you think that's the case? Is it your opinion that modern Arab anti-Semitism is rooted in Nazism?

That's Bernard Lewis' conclusion, and it's one of the few things about modern Arab/Muslim anything that I agree with him on.
 
That's Bernard Lewis' conclusion, and it's one of the few things about modern Arab/Muslim anything that I agree with him on.

So the question is to what degree? It can't come entirely from Nazism, could it?
 
So the question is to what degree? It can't come entirely from Nazism, could it?

Not entirely, no. But let me just go ahead and quote what Bernard Lewis wrote, in What Went Wrong?: The Clash Between Islam and Modernity in the Middle East:

Another European contribution to this debate [why the Islamic world is "behind" the Western world at present] is anti-Semitism, and blaming "the Jews" for all that goes wrong. Jews in traditional Islamic societies experienced the normal constraints and occasional hazards of minority status. In most significant respects, they were better off under Muslim than under Christian rule, until the rise of Western tolerance in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries.

With rare exceptions, where hostile stereotypes of the Jew existed in the Islamic tradition, they tended to be contemptuous and dismissive rather than suspicious and obsessive. This made the events of 1948 - the failure of five Arab states and armies to prevent half a million Jews from establishing a state in the debris of the British Mandate for Palestine - all the more of a shock. As some writers at the time observed, it was bad enough to be defeated by the great imperial powers of the West; to suffer the same fate at the hands of a contemptible gang of Jews was an intolerable humiliation. Anti-Semitism and its demonized picture of the Jew as a scheming, evil monster provided a soothing answer.

The earliest specifically anti-Semitic statements in the Middle East occurred among the Christian minorities, and can usually be traced back to European originals. They had limited impact, and at the time for example of the Dreyfus trial in France, when a Jewish officer was unjustly accused and condemned by a hostile court, Muslim comments usually favored the persecuted Jew against his Christian persecutors. But the poison continued to spread, and from 1933 Nazi Germany and its various agencies made a concerted and on the whole remarkably successful effort to promote and disseminate European anti-Semitism in the Arab world. The struggle for Palestine greatly facilitated the acceptance of the anti-Semitic interpretation of history, and led some to blame all evils in the Middle East and indeed the world on secret Jewish plots. This interpretation has pervaded much of the public discourse in the region, including education, the media, and even entertainment.
 
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I'm not seeing where anyone claimed all Muslims are inherently anti-Semitic. At the same time, I think it would be reasonable to claim that anti-Semitism is common among Muslims and more common than among Christians.

I would largely agree with that and refine it, lattely some groups have been virulently anti semitic among Muslims not all, its the homgenous lump all together aspect that I take issue with, and some Christians have been anti Semitic and both have historically.

And until comptratively recently Nick Griffin the leader of the BNP had been actively courting anti semitic Islamsit groups while claiming to defend Western Christian culture.
 
And Ihave noticed this myself of late as detailed in the article below and it concerns me

http://www.pewglobal.org/2008/09/17/unfavorable-views-of-jews-and-muslims-on-the-increase-in-europe/

Ethnocentric Attitudes Are on the Rise in Europe
Unfavorable Views of Jews and Muslims on the Increase in Europe

Overview
Ethnocentric attitudes are on the rise in Europe. Growing numbers of people in several major European countries say they have an unfavorable opinion of Jews, and opinions of Muslims also are more negative than they were several years ago.
 
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