A Question for Conspiracy Theorists.

[Navigator]

You know the story of throwing the starfish back into the ocean? If I can put some sense into at least one person, it might be worth it.


See above. If you want more detail of why things are off:

1. Suspect is white, curly redhead, about as likely a muslim suicide bomber as a black transgender republican (Condi Rice excluded).
2. The suspect according to Bulgarian initial reports was carrying a fake Michigan ID and a US passport. On CNN and so on you'll only hear the fake ID but not the passport. For a US passport you need to submit evidence of citizenship. A US driver's license, real or fake, is useless in Bulgaria. It does make sense if the guy was a US citizen instead of white looking Lebanese, plenty of US citizens have fake IDs or used them to get alcohol.
3. Initial reports were speaking of the bomb placed in the UNDERNEATH luggage compartment of the bus. Then the suicide bomber supposedly went to sit IN the bus. Does not make sense. Now they are changing it to that he was standing AT THE DOOR and blew himself up over there. This does not make sense either if you want to kill as many people as possible. You do it ON the bus.
4. On the pictures of the bus, from the scorch marks it looks like the bomb was INDEED UNDERNEATH on the LEFT of the bus.
5. There is allegedly a witness that states the guy tried to rent a car with that fake ID. This does not sound like a prepared terrorist, a US driver's license will NOT work to get a car in Europe, EVEN if it is real.
6. People in the media will tell you they should have noticed the guy was off with a backpack that large. The bomb however killed only seven people, Bulgarian police now say the bomb was 3 kg of TNT. This small amount easily fits in the SMALLER bag the backpacker carried too in the video. A guy with self preservation would have put a small bag in the bus and LEFT. A body leaves traces behind, otherwise they would NEVER have known who it was.
7. Some Bulgarian in charge claims the guy is a former Gitmo inmate. The name of Mehdi Ghezali is speculated upon, but rejected by Swedish secret service and Bulgarians alike. The Bulgarian guy reiterates his statement. The number of pale 25 something old redheads in Gitmo should be countable on the fingers of one hand, if not on no fingers at all. Still no identification.
8. According to initial reports, you'll read the only reason to start suspecting him is that he sat closest to the bomb and was blown to smithereens the most.
9. There are 30+ survivors but no one reports the guy was shouting Allah Akbar or whatever. No final statement. No one has claimed the attack anyway while otherwise muslim groups are lining up to be the first to claim it.
10. All news disappears, still no real identity is found. I guess Netanyahu shouldn't become too embarassed.

Well this is a nice list of possible alternatives to the 'real story' but how does it address the OP?

 

[Horatius]

Is there a conspiracy to derail threads hereabouts?



Request: Stay on topic people. I realize there is history between the participants ie. wrestling together in other threads but please try to keep to the topic or stay out of it altogether.

Thanks.

Nav

Problem is, you really won't get any useful answer from the CTists here. Simon666's "I'm gonna set up a blog and change the world!" notion is really as far as they usually get. I'll paste in the post I made on a similar topic from last month, asking if CTists were likely to be dangerous:

One thing that's always struck me about the truthers in general is exactly how passive they are, when you stop to think about what it is they think they're fighting against. They are convinced that the US government is a corrupt tool of the NWO, and is engaged in ongoing conspiracies to engage in wars abroad, and promote a police sate at home, and yet, more than 10 years later, they still haven't taken any collective steps towards fighting the NWO, other than their constant bleating on the Internet.

You mention Aum Shinrikyo as an example of a group that evolved into a violent terrorist organization. Compare their history to that of the truthers:





So, within about 5 years of their failed election attempts, they had conceived of an attack plan, purchased weapons, developed and tested their own weapons in-house, and then actually carried out multiple, coordinated attacks. We have never seen that kind of persistent, competent, disciplined action from any truther organization.

And when you look at the losers who make up their rank-and-file, and the fraudsters who make up their leadership, I don't expect we ever will.

People like Simon666 are exactly what I was talking about. Since he's started posting in earnest, he's claimed beliefs in all sort of CTs, and yet, the best he can come up with is a Starfish Themed Blog.

I'm sure the NWO is quaking in their boots right now.....

 

[Natan]

So basically you're a shill for Islamic terrorists. Got it.

See? Even people here believe Iran is conspiring to send a white guy with a US passport to attack Israel in Bulgaria, like there aren't enough anti semites in Eastern Europe as it is. This is what I am talking about. Swallowing whatever Netanyahu puts out without a single solid shred of evidence. I'm now a "shill for Islamic terrorists".

 

[Natan]

Well this is a nice list of possible alternatives to the 'real story' but how does it address the OP?

You ARE the original poster and YOU asked me a question, I answered.

 

[Natan]

Problem is, you really won't get any useful answer from the CTists here. Simon666's "I'm gonna set up a blog and change the world!" notion is really as far as they usually get. I'll paste in the post I made on a similar topic from last month, asking if CTists were likely to be dangerous:

Oh please. What did you expect? Someone to come in here and say the moon landings are fake, what I am going to do about it is work out real hard so I can destroy that old git Buzz Aldrin?

Stop ridiculing. I said I am not going to change the world with it, such is not my goal. I also didn't even say "I'm gonna set up a blog", I'm still thinking about it.

People like Simon666 are exactly what I was talking about. Since he's started posting in earnest, he's claimed beliefs in all sort of CTs, and yet, the best he can come up with is a Starfish Themed Blog.

You should be happy. If it wasn't for people like me in the Conspiracy Theory section, you wouldn't have anyone to feel smugly superior to and you'd all have to circle jerk to keep things entertaining for lack of a challenge.

 

[Nick Terry]

See? Even people here believe Iran is conspiring to send a white guy with a US passport to attack Israel in Bulgaria, like there aren't enough anti semites in Eastern Europe as it is. This is what I am talking about. Swallowing whatever Netanyahu puts out without a single solid shred of evidence. I'm now a "shill for Islamic terrorists".

Your chain of un-reasoning took us back to the 1994 bombing of a Jewish community centre in Argentina, which just so happened to occur two years after the bombing of the Israeli Embassy in Buenos Aires for which Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility. A string of further attacks around the world then unfolded in the days after the 1994 bombing, including two attacks in London. The fact that a string of attacks occurred in 1994 means that the dates chosen were most probably incidental, and were not timed to coincide with any particular anniversaries.

While neo-Nazis have been known to bomb synagogues and other Jewish targets around the world, the fact is that Middle Eastern terrorist groups also have an extensive proven track record of attacking Jewish targets (and not just Israeli targets). Multiple groups exist which have at one time or another been funded and supported by Iran, which has made its dislike of Israel and the Jewish people worldwide quite clear on repeated occasions.

The bombing in Bulgaria was apparently a suicide bombing. That rules out neo-Nazi groups who have never been known to use this method of terrorist attack. The timing of the attack comes after Iran has been accusing Israel of assassinating its nuclear scientists and in a climate of tension over whether Israel might launch a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear facilities.

Now the leap you need to make is this: if Netanyahu wants to launch a preemptive strike he doesn't need to stage a false flag terrorist attack on his own citizens. He'll just do it. The Israelis are down-to-earth like that. They bombed an Iraqi nuclear plant in the 80s without any compunction.

Moreover, given recent history in the Middle East and given the fact that much of the European media is now quite anti-Israel, killing less than half a dozen Israelis is a massive 'so what?' for world opinion. It is not enough to overcome the obvious economic, strategic and political worries attached to any attack on Iran. Eg the fact that it's a US election year and Israel cannot easily do anything before November without massively upsetting its major ally. By which time a terrorist attack five months earlier fades into the background noise. All this is blindingly obvious to anyone who has been following world events in recent years.

So yes, you're either a shill for Islamic terrorists, massively illiterate about world affairs, or in the grip of conspiracist antisemitic delusions. Take your pick, though you don't have to restrict yourself to one.

Alternatively, I think the term 'useful idiot' in the Leninist sense also covers what you're doing for Iran and co.

 

[Nick Terry]

You should be happy. If it wasn't for people like me in the Conspiracy Theory section, you wouldn't have anyone to feel smugly superior to and you'd all have to circle jerk to keep things entertaining for lack of a challenge.

Or, you know, we'd go and beat up on creationists.

 

[Navigator]

You ARE the original poster and YOU asked me a question, I answered.

Sorry to clarify - OP as in Openning Post - which was:

If you believe that conspiracy is truly what is going on, what are you as individuals doing about it in the sense of coming up with a plan of action which will thwart the ultimate goals of these power mongers?

Thank You.

Your answer was not anything to do with the opening post. I hope this clarifies.

Nav

 

[Navigator]

You should be happy. If it wasn't for people like me in the Conspiracy Theory section, you wouldn't have anyone to feel smugly superior to and you'd all have to circle jerk to keep things entertaining for lack of a challenge.

Um...This is the thing. If you are serious about the reality of CT then being distracted or otherwise offering yourself up as entertainment is highly undisciplined and really distracts one from more purposeful focus, such as creating a plan of action along the lines of what I shared in post #17

 

[Navigator]

Originally Posted by Horatius
One thing that's always struck me about the truthers in general is exactly how passive they are, when you stop to think about what it is they think they're fighting against. They are convinced that the US government is a corrupt tool of the NWO, and is engaged in ongoing conspiracies to engage in wars abroad, and promote a police sate at home, and yet, more than 10 years later, they still haven't taken any collective steps towards fighting the NWO, other than their constant bleating on the Internet.

You mention Aum Shinrikyo as an example of a group that evolved into a violent terrorist organization. Compare their history to that of the truthers:





So, within about 5 years of their failed election attempts, they had conceived of an attack plan, purchased weapons, developed and tested their own weapons in-house, and then actually carried out multiple, coordinated attacks. We have never seen that kind of persistent, competent, disciplined action from any truther organization.

And when you look at the losers who make up their rank-and-file, and the fraudsters who make up their leadership, I don't expect we ever will.

People like Simon666 are exactly what I was talking about. Since he's started posting in earnest, he's claimed beliefs in all sort of CTs, and yet, the best he can come up with is a Starfish Themed Blog.

I'm sure the NWO is quaking in their boots right now.....

I get that and also understand the frustration.

 

[Natan]

Your chain of un-reasoning took us back to the 1994 bombing of a Jewish community centre in Argentina, which just so happened to occur two years after the bombing of the Israeli Embassy in Buenos Aires for which Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.

Qaeda al Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack in Bulgaria. This was dismissed in Israeli press as a sunni organization is a bit harder to blame on Iran. Qaeda al Jihad was also described as a "previously unknown organization", even though it is the original name of Al Qaeda. That proves NOTHING. If you read up on Islamic Jihad Organization, they were pretty much on their way back already if non existent in 1992.

A string of further attacks around the world then unfolded in the days after the 1994 bombing, including two attacks in London.

One by the IRA, one by Palestinian terrorists. Unrelated.

The fact that a string of attacks occurred in 1994 means that the dates chosen were most probably incidental, and were not timed to coincide with any particular anniversaries.

Well duh, they are not related events in any way.

While neo-Nazis have been known to bomb synagogues and other Jewish targets around the world, the fact is that Middle Eastern terrorist groups also have an extensive proven track record of attacking Jewish targets (and not just Israeli targets).

No such track record of Middle Eastern terrorist groups of doing it in Latin America or Eastern Europe.

The bombing in Bulgaria was apparently a suicide bombing.

Not a single shred of evidence has been presented to support that assertion. This is the main path investigators are taking because Netanyahu is yapping about it. Maybe a different reason for why their investigation is bloody stuck and no perpetrator is known.

That rules out neo-Nazi groups who have never been known to use this method of terrorist attack. The timing of the attack comes after Iran has been accusing Israel of assassinating its nuclear scientists and in a climate of tension over whether Israel might launch a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear facilities.

It only rules it out if a suicide bombing is proven. No such conclusive proof exists. The timing comes at the anniversary of Mein Kampf and tension about Iran's nuclear facilities have been ongoing for YEARS.

Now the leap you need to make is this: if Netanyahu wants to launch a preemptive strike he doesn't need to stage a false flag terrorist attack on his own citizens. He'll just do it. The Israelis are down-to-earth like that. They bombed an Iraqi nuclear plant in the 80s without any compunction.

I did not make any allegation of false flag event. I am making allegations of Reichstag burning. Someone blew that thing up alright, maybe islamic terrorists after all (no way to know for sure that quickly) or neo nazis, but Netanyahu is a bloodsucker using that event for his own political agenda.

So yes, you're either a shill for Islamic terrorists, massively illiterate about world affairs, or in the grip of conspiracist antisemitic delusions. Take your pick, though you don't have to restrict yourself to one.

Why not both alright?

 

[Horatius]

Oh please. What did you expect? Someone to come in here and say the moon landings are fake, what I am going to do about it is work out real hard so I can destroy that old git Buzz Aldrin?

Maybe you missed the part where I specifically don't expect CTists to actually do anything?

But yes, it would be nice if one of you ever actually had the courage of your convictions. And not just about relatively benign CTs like the Apollos Hoax. The CTists who believe in the really evil plots, like 9/11, Chemtrails, FEMA Death Camps, and plots to spread diseases via vaccines, are just as passive as the Apollo Hoax Believers.

Stop ridiculing. I said I am not going to change the world with it, such is not my goal. I also didn't even say "I'm gonna set up a blog", I'm still thinking about it.

I'll stop ridiculing when CTists stop being ridiculous.

You should be happy. If it wasn't for people like me in the Conspiracy Theory section, you wouldn't have anyone to feel smugly superior to and you'd all have to circle jerk to keep things entertaining for lack of a challenge.

I sorry to have to tell you this, but there's already a lack of a challenge in dealing with you. Haven't you noticed that you have yet to say anything that someone here hasn't already refuted, long before you came around to regurgitate it? Because I can guarantee you that people like Nick Terry have noticed.

 

[Navigator]

Again - come on people - if I can remind you of post #13
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8500957&postcount=13

I would rather this topic sunk to become bottom sucking ghost of posts past food than have it derailed with none topical argument.

Nav

 

[Natan]

Um...This is the thing. If you are serious about the reality of CT then being distracted or otherwise offering yourself up as entertainment is highly undisciplined and really distracts one from more purposeful focus, such as creating a plan of action along the lines of what I shared in post #17

I believe in what I post. I doubt you do. Your original post is very poorly conceived by supposing every conspiracy goes along with "power mongers" or a hierarchical power structure. This seems more like an attempt of acting like Jerry Springer and baiting freaks out there what they will do, rather than a genuine question.

 

[Natan]

I sorry to have to tell you this, but there's already a lack of a challenge in dealing with you. Haven't you noticed that you have yet to say anything that someone here hasn't already refuted, long before you came around to regurgitate it? Because I can guarantee you that people like Nick Terry have noticed.

Fine. Show me where my theory for neo nazis being a more likely suspect for the Bulgaria bus bombing has been refuted long before I came around, let alone that such a thing was ever discussed in the first place. You're allowed to search on this forum and all the forumz on the internetz.

 

[Navigator]

I believe in what I post. I doubt you do. Your original post is very poorly conceived by supposing every conspiracy goes along with "power mongers" or a hierarchical power structure. This seems more like an attempt of acting like Jerry Springer and baiting freaks out there what they will do, rather than a genuine question.

Yes - well I could agree with you if not for the fact that I am known on this forum for wanting to push this very issue in the hopes of getting some genuine interest and contribution. Indeed it is the only main focus in my life and I push it on quite a few separate forums all which are owned/moderated by people with different and sometimes opposing beliefs.
I had thought of going directly to a conspiracy forum but thought I would try it out here where CTs are active.

I understand your reservations regarding the intention of the OP but it is not the case. I am not baiting I am genuinely interested and intent on finding individuals who might be interested in developing a plan of action.

Certainly you are correct that I assume that CTers all thought pretty much the same thing in relation to 'a handful of rich and powerful individuals running the world' - I guess I need to do more homework on that one.

Still it doesn't take anything away from my pertinent advice to stay focused and not be drawn into frivolous bickering or having ones buttons pushed enough to be distracted from the topic at hand.

Indeed - why did you even choose to make any post since you are not one who believes in the 'Power Monger' conspiracies, to which the OP was quite clear about in asking those CTers for comment?

 

[000063]

...Haven't you noticed....

You're expecting a bit much.

 

[Natan]

Indeed - why did you even choose to make any post since you are not one who believes in the 'Power Monger' conspiracies, to which the OP was quite clear about in asking those CTers for comment?

Your original post was but a few lines long. I thought the term "power mongers" was meant sarcastically. I replied truthfully what I am thinking to do to make hopefully a little change in the mindset and critical thinking process of at least one person. I have no ambitions in a greater scheme.

 

[Scott Sommers]

I have a Facebook page on which I post anti-NWO videos. I only accept friends who are willing to make at least one anti-NWO post every day. Once I get 5000 friends, I figure the NWO will collapse.

 

[MRC_Hans]

even though Argentina is known to be chock full of (ex) nazis

Do you realize how old those guys are (those who are still alive)? - Sorry, derail again...

Hans