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WTC7 and the girder walk-off between column 79 and 44

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You think the floors could sustain the extra weight of 12 floors by design. In the unlikely event you're right, ...

Argument from incredulity.

Tony linked you to NIST's take on this, and yes, NIST explains that the floor connections were strong enough to statically hold up to 12 times their actual load (theoretically, with optimal distribution and very careful gradual loading). Are you saying NIST is wrong on that?
 
Argument from incredulity.

Tony linked you to NIST's take on this, and yes, NIST explains that the floor connections were strong enough to statically hold up to 12 times their actual load (theoretically, with optimal distribution and very careful gradual loading). Are you saying NIST is wrong on that?

The deck, however, has a design load of 186 psf. That's effectively two additional floors. (For WTC 7 which is what I assume we're talking about). With factors of safety, it might go up to four to six floors.
 
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The deck, however, has a design load of 186 psf. That's effectively two additional floors. (For WTC 7 which is what I assume we're talking about). With factors of safety, it might go up to four to six floors.
Actually it is not WTC7 but Twin towers - we are in a multiple page derail essentially because Tony Szamboti made a couple of claims about dynamic loading which happen to be true claims. The first one was:
...What rubble actually can't do very well is to provide a dynamic load, but if there is enough of it falling onto floors below quasi-static failures will take place....
A true enough statement if read properly in the context where it was made.

From that point discussion has gone all over the place - well off the original point.

And the thread topic seems to have vanished :)
 
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Argument from incredulity.

Tony linked you to NIST's take on this, and yes, NIST explains that the floor connections were strong enough to statically hold up to 12 times their actual load (theoretically, with optimal distribution and very careful gradual loading). Are you saying NIST is wrong on that?

Floor connections and floor plate are not the same thing.
 
Never mind, this thread is a mess :p
I don't think Noah, Tony, you and I have the same context...


I think Tony's position is intentionally vague. He just says "the floors". He knows the difference between those design load figures and what actually happened. He's selling "Engineering For Dummies" and the dummies don't seem to care about the details. :D
 
Argument from incredulity.

Tony linked you to NIST's take on this, and yes, NIST explains that the floor connections were strong enough to statically hold up to 12 times their actual load (theoretically, with optimal distribution and very careful gradual loading). Are you saying NIST is wrong on that?

Let's not lose sight of reality here. The floors were not designed to survive what happened on 9-11 in any way imaginable. Period.


ETA - I'm saying the bolded part didn't actually happen. To me, "static" suggests something that's not moving. Am I wrong?
 
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Let's not lose sight of reality here. The floors were not designed to survive what happened on 9-11 in any way imaginable. Period.

Don't lose sight of the point I was making. That was that the floor connections and construction in general were relatively robust and would not immediately shear off and go into a propagating situation until there was a significant amount of rubble generated. Probably somewhere between six and nine floors worth. That didn't happen right away.
 
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Don't lose sight of the point I was making. That was that the floor connections were relatively robust and would not immediately shear off and go into a propagating situation until there was a significant amount of rubble generated. Probably somewhere between six and nine floors worth. That didn't happen right away.

Show us the math. I'm pretty confident that you are wrong there.
 
Don't lose sight of the point I was making. That was that the floor connections and construction in general were relatively robust and would not immediately shear off and go into a propagating situation until there was a significant amount of rubble generated. Probably somewhere between six and nine floors worth. That didn't happen right away.

The point you're making is stupid. 9/11 was 19 terrorists + 4 aircraft. No explosives, no nano-nuthin'. You're wrong.


Back to the point of the thread:

WTC 7's "walk-off":
Tony - you're wrong.
 
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The point you're making is stupid. 9/11 was 19 terrorists + 4 aircraft. No explosives, no nano-nuthin'. You're wrong.


Back to the point of the thread:

WTC 7's "walk-off":
Tony - you're wrong.

It doesn't matter what you want to believe, you simply can't walk away from the fact that the NIST girder walk-off collapse initiation mechanism for WTC 7 has been proven to be impossible. It has been explained in detail here and elsewhere.
 
It doesn't matter what you want to believe, you simply can't walk away from the fact that the NIST girder walk-off collapse initiation mechanism for WTC 7 has been proven to be impossible. It has been explained in detail here and elsewhere.

I sure can walk away from it. I can walk away from it knowing that people light years smarter than you have looked at the same information and determined that they're going to build new skyscrapers based on information IN the NIST report.

I can walk away knowing with 100% certainty that the walk-off collapse initiation means nothing to people who matter, and that fire alone can cause a 47 story building to collapse completely. I saw it happen. You did too.

No explosives. No amount of retarded minutae (friggin column 79 walk-off!?!?!) will change it.

Sorry dude. Get a new hobby.
 
I sure can walk away from it. I can walk away from it knowing that people light years smarter than you have looked at the same information and determined that they're going to build new skyscrapers based on information IN the NIST report.

No they won't be building skyscrapers based on what is in the NIST report because there are no substantiating analyses or calculations for the alleged walk-off failure there. Interestingly, when NIST was asked to provide them their politically appointed director told the structural engineer who asked that his request was being denied because "it might jeopardize public safety".

The only thing that has been substantiated, by people like myself who have looked at this, is that the NIST girder walk-off scenario for collapse initiation of WTC 7 is impossible. It could not have happened.

I feel bad for all the honest and dedicated engineers and scientists at NIST who are being made to look bad by political boobs trying to hide something.
 
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No they won't be building skyscrapers based on what is in the NIST report because there are no substantiating analyses or calculations for the alleged walk-off failure there. Interestingly, when NIST was asked to provide them their politically appointed director told the structural engineer who asked that his request was being denied because "it might jeopardize public safety".

They already have built skyscrapers based on information in the NIST report.

Get a new hobby.
 
Where? Provide some proof for what you are saying.

ME provide proof?

Oh, that's rich, coming from a truther.

Try each and every skyscraper built after the report came out.

This one tall enough for ya?

BurjDubaiFlickr.jpg



This is all you need to know.

Now please, don't make a simple printer make you look stupid any more. I thought you were a brilliant engineer!
 
NIST investigators made 31 recommendations based on their reviews of what happened in the twin towers and Building 7. The proposals called for substantial changes in how new high-rises are designed, built and maintained, and in evacuation and emergency response, though the researchers urged owners of existing buildings to also consider acting on the suggestions.

Turning the NIST recommendations into mandatory building and fire safety codes took several years. The voluminous "model" building and fire safety codes from which state and local governments pattern their own binding standards first had to be updated.

That process involves debate not just about the technical basis for the changes, but their applicability and cost, too. Most tall buildings probably are not terrorism targets. Some developers objected to the requirements, saying they might make skyscrapers prohibitively expensive.

"We're always trying to make a balance between cost and safety," said Shyam Sunder, who led the NIST investigation. "And we're always trying to make a trade-up in how safe is safe enough."

"The question is what I call the bookends," said Robert Solomon of the National Fire Protection Association, a non-profit group whose model fire codes are used by many cities. "Do we say [the Trade Center attack] is such an unusual occurrence that we're not going to do anything? Or do we really up the ante and go with all kinds of redundant systems and features?"

Significant changes in building codes

In the end, the National Fire Protection Association and the International Code Council, whose model building and fire codes are the blueprint for most U.S. communities, followed most of the 9/11 investigators' recommendations. They made significant changes in the 2009 and the upcoming 2012 codes, which apply to new high-rises. Ohio is preparing this fall to adopt its version of the 2009 codes, mirroring the changes.


Bolded:
"Took" several years.
Past tense. That means they're complete. Those recommendations are now code. You MUST follow the NIST reccomendations should you choose to build a high-rise.


Linkie
 
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Never mind, this thread is a mess :p
I don't think Noah, Tony, you and I have the same context...
True. And the main topic of recent discussion has been about the differences between 'dynamic' and 'static' loads overlaid by the false assumption that everything Tony Szamboti says must be wrong. Tony was right on his original two parts statement:
...What rubble actually can't do very well is to provide a dynamic load, but if there is enough of it falling onto floors below quasi-static failures will take place. Pulverization of the concrete is another point that I don't necessarily see as proving things one way or another...
Whilst neither this post nor Tony's later support of it were very clear the central claim 'What rubble actually can't do very well is to provide a dynamic load...' was true and remains true. Note especially that he made it clear that he was not discussing concrete pulverising. Then re-read the thread and list the strawmen, redherrings and divergences in the counter arguments. And the number of opportunities Tony missed to prove his point.

And overlaying all that the switch from discussion of the Dave Thomas model test to WTC 9/11 realities with all the usual invalid analogies or false parallels.

So currently we are at this stage:
2headsalt.gif

...except I don't have a smilie with several on one side lining up to have a go at the lone one on the other side. :)

I think Tony's position is intentionally vague. He just says "the floors". He knows the difference between those design load figures and what actually happened. He's selling "Engineering For Dummies" and the dummies don't seem to care about the details. :D
Except I'm not sure about the intent.

The underlying problem for Tony is that his posts reveal no concept of the actual mechanism of collapse - initiation or progression - for the Twin Towers. It was one of the three big problems with 'Missing Jolt' and it is an evident problem here - read this post:
Don't lose sight of the point I was making. That was that the floor connections and construction in general were relatively robust and would not immediately shear off and go into a propagating situation until there was a significant amount of rubble generated. Probably somewhere between six and nine floors worth. That didn't happen right away.
How do you think that the initial collapse transitioned into 'global' or 'progressive' collapse Tony?
What do you mean by 'rubble' Tony?
Even if we include 'broken off bits of steel members' as 'rubble' how do you get 6 to 9 floors quantity of 'rubble' without the transition to global collapse having passed?
That is the same timing and sequencing error you have made previously in your efforts to explain 'column on column impact'. You have events which have already happened coming after things which are still to happen. And bringing in 'magic demolition' does not solve the sequencing or timing problem.
 
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