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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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Simon666 said:
Then I started actually to be willing to read the arguments of revisionists and came to realize they actually had a good number that made sense.
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Well, there's an entire thread to discuss those, I invite you to try to make sense of denier arguments there -- our current crop are avoiding the thread now that it's moderated.
 
Apologies for replying to posts that are a week old, but I've been busy enjoying the sunshine.

Charles Traynor said:
A few bad apples from the 8th battalion the Rifle Brigade regiment have brought the name of this fine old regiment into disrepute by shooting POWS in the legs and hips for fun.
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They were not POWS, they were camp guards pretending to be inmates. These are obviously two very differnet things. They would only be POWs if they had surrendered instead of cowardly hiding amongst the inmates.
 
Charles Traynor said:
What happened at Belsen was tragic but it cannot be called murder.
For this particular part of our current debate the type of bulldozer used is now of paramount concern.
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What would you call it? Approximately 35,000 people died in Belsen between January and April 1945 due to starvation and overwork.
 
Charles Traynor said:
Are you now claiming Belsen was not surrendered to the British or just playing your usual game of messing with the semantics of posts in a vain attempt the obfuscate the truth?
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Belsen surrendered to the British, but guards hiding amongst the prisoners obviously hadn't surrendered, so were not POWs.
 
Charles Traynor said:
It is a historical FACT that Belsen was surrendered to the British, and I'd be hiding too if I had seen my comrades being brutalized in front of my eyes.

Just because a POW is scared is not an excuse to shoot him in the legs or hips.
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It really is very simple. If the guards were hiding in amongst the geuine prisoners, they had not surrendered, so were not POWs.
 
Simon666 said:
I used to be a firm believer in the Holocaust. Then I started actually to be willing to read the arguments of revisionists and came to realize they actually had a good number that made sense. Now I also no longer believe the 6 millions myth or homicidal gas chambers, for which the evidence is pretty weak all in all considered. I do believe hundreds of thousands died or were killed, maybe 1.5 million or so, which is bad enough, but nowhere near 6.

I was surprised to see at JREF that there are not more revisionists. For a forum for supposedly skeptical people that think critically, it seems like 6 million dead jews is an unquestionable fact akin to a religious dogma, all those who deviate are evil and dumb. In many places in Europe, it is very much a religious dogma as questioning it can have serious legal implications (free speech about everything EXCEPT the Holocaust) and even if it doesn't, your career can be utterly destroyed. It seems that critical thinking and skepticism is promoted here for just about everything EXCEPT you know what.
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If you believe the 'revisionists' you're not really thinking critically or being a skeptic. The reason no serious historian supports their claims is not because they're part of some Zionist conspiracy, but because the evidence for the numerous events that became known as the Holocaust is overwhelming.
 
Liam said:
The reason no serious historian supports their claims is not because they're part of some Zionist conspiracy, but because the evidence for the numerous events that became known as the Holocaust is overwhelming.
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Meh, where is all the soap made of jews, the lampshades, the steam chambers, vacuum chambers and electrocution chambers? ALL of those are disbelieved by most mainstream historians today but were believed back then. Even for the gas chambers, the evidence is UNDERwhelming. The only "evidence" is more "witness testimony" or "confessions" and no such testimony has ever presented a credible account for the actual operation of gas chambers. Let alone the suspension of physics and for example the cremation of bodies within 15 minutes, a feat which even modern crematoria can not accomplish. There are too many things that do not add up to warrant revisionism about at least some issues. I am sorry but I actually read the arguments of revisionists and found that even if you're not willing to consider them, they should at least make some sense.
 
Simon666 said:
Meh, where is all the soap made of jews, the lampshades, the steam chambers, vacuum chambers and electrocution chambers? ALL of those are disbelieved by most mainstream historians today but were believed back then. Even for the gas chambers, the evidence is UNDERwhelming. The only "evidence" is more "witness testimony" or "confessions" and no such testimony has ever presented a credible account for the actual operation of gas chambers. Let alone the suspension of physics and for example the cremation of bodies within 15 minutes, a feat which even modern crematoria can not accomplish. There are too many things that do not add up to warrant revisionism about at least some issues. I am sorry but I actually read the arguments of revisionists and found that even if you're not willing to consider them, they should at least make some sense.
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As mentioned above, we've had several huge threads about this. Threads where deniers have tried to peddle the exact same "arguments" that are in your post (good job hitting pretty much every single denier canard in a single paragraph, though).

But please. Feel free to join us in that thread if you think the above can stand against the weight of historiography.
 
ANTPogo said:
As mentioned above, we've had several huge threads about this.
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I'd have to wade through hundreds of posts. I've already read some, quite interesting points for and against I have to say.

ANTPogo said:
good job hitting pretty much every single denier canard in a single paragraph, though
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Those are just a few, but I have been reading up on the subject both pro and contra. I don't dismiss things outof hand.

ANTPogo said:
But please. Feel free to join us in that thread if you think the above can stand against the weight of historiography.
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I actually WILL.
 
Having a chance to do some reading, I found this from the Holocaust Survivors and Remembrance Project site.

Hungarian soldiers in the Germany Army, who had been sent to keep order while the camp was transferred to the British, were in fact shot by the British, according to British soldiers who participated in the liberation.
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As for bulldozer driving, my Uncle qualified as a driver in the Rifles. I have no idea what range of vehicles he may have had to drive during wartime. Here is also a news article about someone else who drove a bulldozer at Belsen, was not RE, or had he driven one before.

His Commanding Officer asked Michael if he could drive a bulldozer. Although he'd never attempted to drive one before, Michael said yes.
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Mr Traynor, you've wasted a lot of time on trying to debunk something that has no real bearing on the Holocaust, and you are staying away from the real debate.
 
Simon666 said:
So were they "murdered" or did they die from starvation and overwork?
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The starvation and overwork were deliberately done with the intention that premature death would be the end result.

If I kidnap someone and lock him up somewhere, then force him to undergo hard labor while feeding him fewer calories than he burns per day, and he dies as a result of the above, I will (rightly) be charged with his murder.
 
Simon666 said:
Meh, where is all the soap made of jews, the lampshades, the steam chambers, vacuum chambers and electrocution chambers? ALL of those are disbelieved by most mainstream historians today but were believed back then.
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Have you ever stopped to think WHY steam/vacuum/electrocution chambers are disbelieved or to compare the volumes of evidence for them to the gas chambers? Two of these things were very early hearsay reports which were not confirmed. They were the product of people trying to understand what was going on inside closed camps and closed chambers without getting information from the horse's mouth. There were better reports specifying that gas chambers were being used from the get-go. 'Vacuum' chamber was simply a misunderstanding by technically illiterate witnesses who didn't work in the killing zones of the relevant death camp. B.F.D. Again, other witnesses had better knowledge and testified more accurately. That's why nobody has ever claimed in an investigation, trial or history book that the Nazis used them.

The other two items are peripheral and don't even concern the fate of the Jews. We do have direct evidence that human fat was turned into a cleaning material at Danzig (but not from Jewish corpses) and there was indeed once a lampshade singular made from human skin by a rogue SS officer (but not from a Jewish corpse). Unsurprisingly, these stories were repeated by hearsay since they were so horrific. The 'soap' story goes back well into the war as a rumour among Poles, Germans and Jews. It was a shorthand for being killed, a sick joke that was so widely repeated that some people believed it. Yet nobody ever came forward with any evidence that there were soap or lampshade factories, just the one off cases that are documented.

You'll have to do a lot better than this pathetic denier Gish Gallop I'm afraid. Do you honestly think that they've not been discussed to death in the last 20 years of Usenet, alt.revisionism, web 2.0 and on this very forum? Deniers have been droning on about them for even longer yet nobody cares because they're transparently silly gambits.

Even for the gas chambers, the evidence is UNDERwhelming. The only "evidence" is more "witness testimony" or "confessions" and no such testimony has ever presented a credible account for the actual operation of gas chambers.
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No, the only evidence is not witness testimony, but witness testimony alone poses four totally insoluble problems for "revisionism".

  1. No denier has ever analysed ALL of the direct witness testimonies to the gas chambers.
  2. No denier has ever explained convincingly how or why all the witnesses would report about them in such detail.
  3. No denier has ever explained how come witnesses testified to them independently, and got details right which being reported on the other side of the Iron Curtain.
  4. No denier has ever explained how the SS and other Nazis were made to confess and do so consistently over many decades.

and then there are the other problems, like the fact that there are documents about the gas chambers which make sense in relation to the witnesses, but make no sense for any other explanation that any denier has ever advanced.

Let alone the suspension of physics and for example the cremation of bodies within 15 minutes, a feat which even modern crematoria can not accomplish.
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No, physics was not suspended. On the contrary, multiple body cremation is documented about 20 times over and makes complete sense in relation to physics, since the crematoria had muffles large enough to accommodate multiple bodies, and could thus speed up the average/abstract time to cremate 'one' body, saving on fuel and increasing efficiency by using the cremation cycle to accelerate the process for the next corpse. Modern crematoria only burn a single body at a time and incinerate the body down to the proverbial urn of ash. Concentration camp crematoria could burn several bodies at the same time and didn't have to burn the bodies down to a fine powder, they simply had to burn them to cinders which were then dumped rather than placed into an urn and given to relatives.

There are too many things that do not add up to warrant revisionism about at least some issues. I am sorry but I actually read the arguments of revisionists and found that even if you're not willing to consider them, they should at least make some sense.
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I've got some bad news for you: a very many people here have also read the arguments of revisionists and think they make no sense whatsoever. So your opinion means very little since the informed verdict here disagrees with you; you'll have to do better than 'I say it makes sense' if you're going to argue about this. Skepticism is something to be applied to fringe theories as well as conventional ones.

And when I say people have read the revisionists, I mean there are quite a few people here who probably know revisionist doctrine better than you do, and have actually read the 'Holocaust Handbooks' rather than watching the video summaries by denierbud.
 
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