General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[Charles Traynor]

Never seen anybody riding the toe-board before? Or "hot seating" a bonnet?

By the way... The Royal Engineers still follow standard force organisation terms just like any other regiment with specialised units. Comapy and Platoon is how other regiments might think of them.

http://www.armedforces.co.uk/army/listings/l0059.html

Duh! The Royal Engineers use squadron and troop to deignate sub units and not company and platoon like the Infantry. What was the point of this post?

 

[Nessie]

Now go and look up where the British were later forced to open fire on the inmates with live rounds to stop the orgy of killing, rape and looting which broke out after they initially took control of the camp.

Now go and look at how the British treated German prisoners of war kept in the UK. Their death rate was 0.03% compared to a 3.5% death rate for British held by the Germans and 57.5% for Soviets held by the Germans. (Ferguson, Niall (2004), "Prisoner Taking and Prisoner Killing in the Age of Total War: Towards a Political Economy of Military Defeat", War in History 11 (2), p. 186)

From CODOH there are some figures for the concentration camps July 1942 to June 1943 "ordinary death rates" which vary from 2.8% to 10.62%. http://www.codoh.com/library/document/1028. That is the best case scenario and still way off what the British achieved at their camps.

If the Britsh had to resort to such extreme measures, it was because of the Nazis and their legacy with how they ran their camps and they mistreated prisoners. It was not because the British, with the best war record for running camps somehow made the situation worse.

Do you see how evidencing works now Charles? You have tried to shift blame to the British, but evidence shows you are wrong.

 

[Straw Man]

Had a quick look on the internet, and all I can come up with is this on a forum discussing D4 Bulldozers.

2T serial numbers were all military as were some of the preceding model with a 7J serial like mine. The British Army used loads, they were the standard size IV dozer. Famously used to bury victims at Belsen.....

He also rode around in a Kubelwagen for a while, and yet he wasn't in the German Army.

Shocking!

 

[Charles Traynor]

It is an absolute irrelevance what bulldozer was used, the fact remains the British Army had to use Bulldozers to bury the thousands of innocents the Nazis murdered at Belsen.

What happened at Belsen was tragic but it cannot be called murder.

For this particular part of our current debate the type of bulldozer used is now of paramount concern.

 

[000063]

Good. You now concede that I was accurate in assuming SM's uncle was an Infantryman and that he rode around in a Bren carrier.

I was, but now I'm withdrawing that claim given Terry pointing out that the REs use similar designations as regular units. I had some difficulty finding evidence that the 8th were infantry, and merely assumed they were. I also pointed out that they could've had a RE attached, and now realize that the REs, if only they could drive dozers, need not be part of the 8th.

You will now provide me with a citation proving that the D-4 was the actual buldozer model used by the British at Belsen.

No. Provide a citation of all the models which were used, and show that the D4 is not among them. Also, provide the citation I already asked for that only the REs were trained to operate said vehicles, which you just cropped out of my post, dishonest sophist. You keep doing it, I'll keep pointing it out. I've already pointed out that the dozer model could simply be wrong. For example, the D8.



Oh, look, it clearly has a second seat. I wasn't able to find a photo of someone riding on a bulldozer, buuut...

http://olive-drab.com/idphoto/id_photos_d4cat.php
Wait, that's not some specialized machine. That's basically a farm tractor. Please provide evidence that only the Royal Engies could operate such a machine during WW2.

Oh, and nice job quote-mining out the part of my post that links to me proving you unequivocally wrong. I assume that you don't contest my assertion, then. And no, don't try the "it's irrelevant" dodge, since the accuracy of your claims is relevant, or the claims themselves were never relevant in the first place.

I like how you quote-mine out me pointing out your quote mining. You can't help yourself, can you?

I also asked you to back up another claim. Tick tock.

 

[000063]

...
And as for Strawman's uncle there is a very simple explanation why he was in an infantry role at one moment and working a bulldozer the next. In the British Army (and Commonwealth as well). There is a sub-trade in the infantry branch called the "pioneer". These are the lads called on to construct field fortifications and do some tasks usually given over to the Engineers. During peace time parades you can recognize the by their beards, aprons and axes. Also, the military is quite prepared to let people with skill sets from civilian life use those sets in operations.

http://www.army.mod.uk/rlc/career/381.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_(military)#Pioneers_in_the_British_Army

I think we're done here.

Now, about that torrent of insults I apparently made toward Traynor, has anyone seen them? Anyone?

 

[Marras]

It is reasonable enough to call for one making an assertion to back it up with some evidence.

I agree.

So, could you please give some evidence for your assertion that people here defended Zisblatt's story?

 

[Tomtomkent]

Duh! The Royal Engineers use squadron and troop to deignate sub units and not company and platoon like the Infantry. What was the point of this post?

Well, if you didn't read it...
1) That sitting "on" a Dozer with out being "in" it may be bad practice, but is common in industry and I have no reason to assume the military would be different.

2) Those not IN the Royal Engineers would apply the language they were ofey in and accustomed to. It is not uncommon for Infantry to think in Infantry terms when describing other units. Especially in a oral statements that are not intended as official records. It is not enough to discount the body of the testemony.

What did you not find clear?

 

[000063]

What happened at Belsen was tragic but it cannot be called murder.

What was it, then? Neutralization of dissidents? How about when the SS gunned down starving prisoners; was it murder then? When are you going to back up that claim about the British forces committing war crimes?

For this particular part of our current debate the type of bulldozer used is now of paramount concern.

Given that a explanation has been provided, it's really not anymore.

 

[Charles Traynor]

And as for Strawman's uncle there is a very simple explanation why he was in an infantry role at one moment and working a bulldozer the next. In the British Army (and Commonwealth as well). There is a sub-trade in the infantry branch called the "pioneer". These are the lads called on to construct field fortifications and do some tasks usually given over to the Engineers. During peace time parades you can recognize the by their beards, aprons and axes. Also, the military is quite prepared to let people with skill sets from civilian life use those sets in operations.

The Infantry Combat Engineer course taken by those who will join the Infantry Pioneer platoons does not involve instruction in the use of heavy plant.

 

[Dcdrac]

mr traynor it matters not at all what bulldozer was used the matter still remains the british had to use bulldozers to bury the victims of a mass murder

 

[A'isha]

For this particular part of our current debate the type of bulldozer used is now of paramount concern.

To you it is, because it allows to talk about anything but things like your false, uncited claims above, the lies of your fellow deniers, or what the Nazis actually did at places like Belsen.

Unfortunately for you, we can see what you're doing.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Point number 2 goes double if the RE staff were seconded or attached to an infintry unit of the BEF by the way. When they are effectively part of another unit for a short time, why would the other unit NOT describe them in those terms?


Bare in mind also that we are not tlaking about soldiers trying their hand at being soldiers. You are talking about men from all walks of life who have taken on military service for a short period in an outbreak of war. If you are in Unit X, and you spent your working life driving a dozer, and your regiment needs somebody to drive a dozer, and there is a dozer sitting there, are you going to say "Not my job"?

My grand father did not, to the best of my knowledge, forget to play cricket when he did his service. As point of fact he still managed to play throughout his service. And to grow tomatoes. Both despite being an anti-aircraft gunner. How strange.

 

[Nick Terry]

What I love about watching deniers flail hopelessly is the way that even when they try to reduce the debate to a peripheral aspect (like the bulldozers used at Belsen), the tactic blows up in their face time and again.

Folks, please do enjoy the new chew toy for as long as he sticks around. He was always like this: hopeless at defending any assertion on anything more substantive than his jollies to Birkenau, and lousy at warding off the well-earned ridicule his travelogues attracted.

 

[A'isha]

Charles Traynor, here is a picture of a British Army bulldozer moving the bodies of just some of the victims of the Nazis, at Belsen.

NSFW - Blocked for gruesomeness

What model bulldozer is that?

 

[Charles Traynor]

mr traynor it matters not at all what bulldozer was used the matter still remains the british had to use bulldozers to bury the victims of a mass murder

Getting emotional is not going to change the fact that no mass murder occurred at Belsen.

 

[Tomtomkent]

The Infantry Combat Engineer course taken by those who will join the Infantry Pioneer platoons does not involve instruction in the use of heavy plant.

Did that replace civilian training recieved before conscription? Or "Close enough to...X"? Hmm.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Did Straw even say his relative was DRIVING the dozer?

Why could he not have sat on, riden on, been a footplate rider, etc?

 

[A'isha]

Did Straw even say his relative was DRIVING the dozer?

Why could he not have sat on, riden on, been a footplate rider, etc?

Charles Traynor claims there was no room. There looks like plenty of room on the bulldozer to me, in the picture I posted above.

EDIT: Here's another picture, showing a spot where someone could easily sit beside the driver

NSFW - More Nazi gruesomeness

 

[Tomtomkent]

Getting emotional is not going to change the fact that no mass murder occurred at Belsen.

Then what, WAS the tragedy you described if not murder? Please supply, then prove, your counter theory.