Scientology abandoned by Hubbard's granddaughter & Miscavige's father

[marplots]

It shouldn't be a hard question to answer though, should it? If it is, that kind of speaks for itself.

I don't know enough about Scientology to answer it for Scientology. In general though, my guess would be the kind of information that, while changing nothing, changes everything.

Here's a poor example of what I mean. You find out your father wasn't really your father (long after everyone involved but you is dead). The only thing changed is how you view your own history, nothing you can measure in a material sense is changed.

Or, you find out space aliens really did land in Roswell. You get convincing evidence, but, like so many episodes of the X Files, it isn't preserved. Nothing changes, but the way you look at things change.

 

[marplots]

The argument that Scientology must work because 10 million people believe in it (or is it really only 100,000?) doesn't hold water, but of course that doesn't necessarily mean that it's useless either.

Gets at what we mean by "it works." North Korea "works" kinda. Not a place I want to live though.

In evaluating the value of Scientology, I think it's important to look at it's origins, the claims and motives of its founder. the supposed powers of Clears, all the falsehoods that Lron spouted, and yes, all the wacky details that committed members like Justinian really wish to avoid. Look at the video that someone posted here a few days ago, Lron wasn't joking or presenting some kind of corollary, he really expected many people to believe in the sci-fi origin myth that he wrote, and he was right.

Do origin myths really matter? I mean, does it make a difference if they don't reach into the present? Do Scientologists really need Xenu to keep things rolling along?

 

[shuttlt]

I don't know enough about Scientology to answer it for Scientology. In general though, my guess would be the kind of information that, while changing nothing, changes everything.

Here's a poor example of what I mean. You find out your father wasn't really your father (long after everyone involved but you is dead). The only thing changed is how you view your own history, nothing you can measure in a material sense is changed.

Or, you find out space aliens really did land in Roswell. You get convincing evidence, but, like so many episodes of the X Files, it isn't preserved. Nothing changes, but the way you look at things change.

Ignoring Scientology for a moment. I don't think anybody here doubts that joining a cult, any cult, changes ones perspective on the world. Of course it does. If through the cult I find out that I was abused by my father, it would change me. It really doesn't matter whether it is true or not. If I'm in the cult and "believe" it can still change me.

Do you think anybody is arguing that this is not the case? What are you trying to argue for here? I don't think there would be the opposition there is to Scientology if people believed Scientology had no effect on people.

 

[shuttlt]

Marplots,

Where are you trolling with all this relativistic equivocation on what we mean to say that something "works"?

 

[dafydd]

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/audit/foster06.html

''THE DEAD FILE

Ethics Files shall include a DEAD FILE.

This File includes all persons who write nasty or choppy letters to an org or its personnel.

Rather than go to the trouble of issuing a Suppressive Person order or even investigating we assign writers of choppy letters to the DEAD FILE. When their area is enturbulated we want to locate a suppressive we can always consult our DEAD FILE for possible candidates and then investigate and issue an order.

The DEAD FILE is by sections of the Area or the World, and alphabetical in those sections.

The actual action is simply to cut comm. You can always let entheta lines drop. Entheta means En = Enturbulated; theta = thought or life.

About 20 per cent of the human race is inclined to natter. About 2½ per cent at a guess are suppressive. Under our fast flow system of management we can't be ourselves up with 20 per cent of the correspondence. All the decent peop1e, all the service and help should go to the 80 per cent. This is also financially sound. The 20 per cent lose us money. An insolvent org is entirely involved with the 20 per cent and is neglecting the 80 per cent.

We just don't comm with the entheta line. I can show you many instances of where we were seriously at fault to do so as later years proved.''


http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/audit/ofpapers.html#govt

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Suppose everything Scientology taught was true. How would the world look different?

Rather than studiously avoiding the question of what superpowers he has, Justinian would long ago have won Randi's $1m.

 

[dafydd]

'' the highest profile celeb in Scientology is Tom Cruise. And the star and his church routinely recommend that everyone should refuse and/or abstain from any drugs prescribed by psychiatrists. And also reject any suggested care or counseling offered by mental health professionals.

This belief apparently led to tragedy when a Scientologist's 28-year-old son stabbed his mother to death. The young man Jeremy Perkins is deeply disturbed and now is being held within the Rochester Psychiatric Center. He was found not responsible for the murder of his mother due to mental defect.

Perkins was the schizophrenic son of Elli Perkins a senior auditor (counselor) at the Buffalo Scientology branch in New York.

Consistent with his mother's beliefs Jeremy Perkins never received treatment from mental health professionals, but instead was cared for according to Scientology's guidelines and practices. He received vitamins.''

http://www.blacktriangle.org/blog/?p=1319

 

[marplots]

Marplots,

Where are you trolling with all this relativistic equivocation on what we mean to say that something "works"?

As much as possible, I am trying to hold off on flipping the "final judgement" switch. The one that kills conversation, that has us turning our face away, the one that prints the map and seals the contract -- case closed.

I have to admit, I've gotten most of what I wanted to know already. We've covered a lot of ground. But it was, and is, simple curiosity. I wish there was more in the way of an informed, current scientologist here though. It would be nice to get their perspective.

 

[dafydd]

Rather than studiously avoiding the question of what superpowers he has, Justinian would long ago have won Randi's $1m.

He has no superpowers, just an ordinary Joe, like the rest of us.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

It sounds like the descriptions I've heard so far rely on obedient minions instead of independent thinkers. I would expect such an organization to implode at some point. Too many indians and not enough chiefs, so to speak.

There is a case to be made that this is exactly what's happening at the moment.

 

[shuttlt]

As much as possible, I am trying to hold off on flipping the "final judgement" switch. The one that kills conversation, that has us turning our face away, the one that prints the map and seals the contract -- case closed.

I have to admit, I've gotten most of what I wanted to know already. We've covered a lot of ground. But it was, and is, simple curiosity. I wish there was more in the way of an informed, current scientologist here though. It would be nice to get their perspective.

I don't think equivocating on "works" is productive though. You know perfectly well that saying that a medicine "works" means something different than if one were to say that a movie "works" because it moved us, or even changed our outlook on ourselves/the world. You also know that critics of Scientology aren't claiming that Scientology doesn't "work" in the movie sense of the word.

 

[dafydd]

As much as possible, I am trying to hold off on flipping the "final judgement" switch. The one that kills conversation, that has us turning our face away, the one that prints the map and seals the contract -- case closed.

I have to admit, I've gotten most of what I wanted to know already. We've covered a lot of ground. But it was, and is, simple curiosity. I wish there was more in the way of an informed, current scientologist here though. It would be nice to get their perspective.

An informed scientologist? Informed about what? Anyway, all they would do is proselytize and tell us how clear and superior they are compared to us lesser mortals.

 

[Marcus]

Gets at what we mean by "it works." North Korea "works" kinda. Not a place I want to live though.



Do origin myths really matter? I mean, does it make a difference if they don't reach into the present? Do Scientologists really need Xenu to keep things rolling along?

Scientologists clearly do not need Xenu ( though I do wonder where they think Thetans come from, perhaps you can enlighten me on that point).

You would think they would need to believe in the veracity of L. Ron Hubbard, though. They are staking their lives on the truthfulness of what the man said. If he lied, not merely about his background and education, but about the very concepts he used to found his cult, you should be wary of all his concepts.

 

[marplots]

I don't think equivocating on "works" is productive though. You know perfectly well that saying that a medicine "works" means something different than if one were to say that a movie "works" because it moved us, or even changed our outlook on ourselves/the world. You also know that critics of Scientology aren't claiming that Scientology doesn't "work" in the movie sense of the word.

I took it to mean, "does what it claims to do." That's all.

Here's how they use the word on their website:

In Scientology no one is asked to accept anything as belief or on faith. That which is true for you is what you have observed to be true. An individual discovers for himself that Scientology works by personally applying its principles and observing or experiencing results.

and

Nothing in Scientology, however, need be taken on faith. Its truths are self-evident, its principles are easily demonstrable and its technology can be seen at work in any Church of Scientology. One need only open the door and step through.

They claim it works. How am I to take that other than "it does what we say it does?" If they claimed it would cure herpes and it didn't cure herpes, then it didn't work. If they claim it makes people feel better about themselves, and that's what it does, then it did work.

I really wasn't trying to get more out of the word than that.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

They claim it works. How am I to take that other than "it does what we say it does?" If they claimed it would cure herpes and it didn't cure herpes, then it didn't work. If they claim it makes people feel better about themselves, and that's what it does, then it did work.

I really wasn't trying to get more out of the word than that.

They do claim it cures disease. It'll also give you superpowers. Apparently.

None of this has ever been proven. You can draw your own conclusions as to why.

 

[The Dark Lord]

Inside The Church of Scientology: An Exclusive Interview with L. Ron Hubbard, Jr. Published in Penthouse, 1983.

...

Penthouse: Didn't your father have any interest in helping people?


Hubbard: No.


Penthouse: Never?


Hubbard: My father started out as a broke science-fiction writer. He was always broke in the late 1940s. He told me and a lot of other people that the way to make a million was to start a religion. Then he wrote the book Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health while he was in Bayhead, New Jersey. When we later visited Bayhead, in about 1953, we were walking around and reminiscing --he told me that he had written the book in one month.

...

But I guess LRon's own son is suppressive person spreading lies, right Justinian?

 

[DuvalHMFIC]

I can't. I'm relying on hearsay from what I've read. This comes in the form of general approval of Scientology rather than mentioning specific techniques. As far as I can tell, the criticisms also don't breakdown specifics in any useful way.

So, for example, in this thread, auditing has been mentioned as beneficial (and available just by reading Dianetics -- for cheap) but no attempt has been made to figure out in a scientific manner why it might be helpful. Does the shape of the cans matter? Does the material they are made out of matter? What about room lighting and so on?

Usually, methodology is dismissed wholesale without detailing particulars. It is supported the same way.

I'm not claiming that no one has studied this in a detailed manner, just that I haven't and haven't read about it.

No, this isn't true. You need more than Dianetics apparently (aka you gotta spend mo money!):

I picked up Dianetics and started reading it. Soon Melvin and I were auditing each other, and he wanted to go to the church in Tampa, so we did....
I never noticed a difference in my life after being audited. Maybe for the first 5-10 minuutes (placebo effect?), but that was it. I'd remark how it seemed like everything was more colorful on my drive home. I like scenery, but not for what it would have cost me.

You never were into Scientology, for all intensive purposes. Auditing is sold in 12.5 hour intensives. I know you didn't have that. It would take that long to handle enough of your case to have a lasting impact - and only if you were free of suppression for the duration of the auditing at least.

 

[pakeha]

...A scam is stealing money under false pretenses. There is an exchange of value for something worthless (or, I suppose, worth less). But that remains to be determined, it's what we were talking about. It doesn't do much good just to restate it.

Of course not.
You've seen the articles on the links I've posted. You've listened to the interview I linked. What more do you really need to make up your mind on the E-meters?

...I wish there was more in the way of an informed, current scientologist here though. It would be nice to get their perspective.

I quite agree, but it's not going to happen.
Have you checked out the link to the forum of the kids who have grown up in Scientology? They are certainly informed.

ETA
Here's the link dafydd posted earlier http://exscientologykids.com/
I'm going over there now to browse a bit more.

 

[dafydd]

I'm not surprised that Justinian turned tail and ran. That kids site is a revealing one.

 

[BStrong]

Gets at what we mean by "it works." North Korea "works" kinda. Not a place I want to live though.



Do origin myths really matter? I mean, does it make a difference if they don't reach into the present? Do Scientologists really need Xenu to keep things rolling along?

At a certain level of cash donation they evidently do.