Scientology abandoned by Hubbard's granddaughter & Miscavige's father

[Krikkiter]

Regarding the E-meter:

"Judge Gerhardt A. Gesell found that:

Hubbard and his fellow Scientologists developed the notion of using an E-Meter to aid auditing. Substantial fees were charged for the meter and for auditing sessions using the meter. They repeatedly and explicitly represented that such auditing effectuated cures of many physical and mental illnesses. An individual processed with the aid of the E-Meter was said to reach the intended goal of 'clear' and was led to believe that there was reliable scientific proof that once cleared many, indeed most, illnesses would successfully be cured. Auditing was guaranteed to be successful. All this was and is false.[17]

The judge ordered use of the E-meter be confined to "bona fide religious counseling" and the device be prominently labeled with a warning notice:

The E-Meter is not medically or scientifically useful for the diagnosis, treatment or prevention of any disease. It is not medically or scientifically capable of improving the health or bodily functions of anyone."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-meter#Food_and_Drug_Administration_interest

 

[GT/CS]

It seems to annoy scientologists when others have their own opinions. It's a control freak cult.

As with most cults it matches its leader's personality.

 

[ddt]

Well, unreliable doesn't have to come in degrees. If the polygraph doesn't detect lies, and the e-meter doesn't detect what it's supposed to detect, using the same principles, we have the same question about purpose. If you don't have any confidence in the results, it hardly matters whether you call it a polygraph or have someone balance a rock on their head.

Which makes me wonder what else might be going on. Are they used for the same thing, to elicit something from the person being questioned?

I think the E-meter may have been invented by LRH to give auditing a "scientific" appearance. I have no evidence for that, though. Oh, and what dafydd said: a nice way to fleece the flock.

 

[hgc]

It seems to annoy scientologists when others have their own opinions. It's a control freak cult.

Yes, and they put a lot of emphasis on being "in agreement." This means dropping all objections before you can make any progress in any way.

 

[marplots]

"Amazing" and "most compelling ever" may be going a bit far, but I do give him credit for being a talented con man. I think that label is appropriate because he didn't simply set out to make money by selling a service, that would just be business. He invented not only the service he wanted to sell, but the problems it supposedly cured.

If you really believed in an Argumentum Ad Populum, you would be a member of one of the worlds major religions, how could billions of people be wrong?

I don't believe in AAP in a binary way or necessarily giving a decent rank order. However, to ignore what other humans think seems too shallow to work either.

One escape clause from AAP is to try to generalize so that groups can be usefully combined. That gets your populum numbers up. Ideally, you get it large enough that you only have to explain why the few you couldn't shoehorn in are the exceptions.

Personally, I'm moving toward a kind of emergent property of humans acting as an organized collective. Applied to Scientology, this would make for fewer bad guys and no puppet master. It would also apply broadly, across religions. I'm not convinced yet, but I think the idea has legs.

I don't see how the right vs. wrong framework really fits here. If it did, you'd expect only a single religion to emerge (or none at all) wouldn't you? Survival of the fittest idea. That framework doesn't fit what we see. We see an ecology. We see a lot of niches. It rather reminds me of style of government.

 

[dafydd]

Are you still watching me Justinian? That must be a real treat for you, given my handsome features and noble bearing.

 

[dafydd]

Personally, I'm moving toward a kind of emergent property of humans acting as an organized collective. Applied to Scientology, this would make for fewer bad guys and no puppet master. It would also apply broadly, across religions. I'm not convinced yet, but I think the idea has legs.

Scientology with no puppet masters and no victims to fleece will remain forever legless.

 

[Multivac]

"It's worthwhile."

What would you say is the worth of not believing in gods, demons and various wacky things, instead of believing in some, or all of those things? I am curious to know where the value resides.

For me, it is the value of reality over believing in non-existent, mythical creatures such as gods, demons, fairies and similar rubbish.

 

[Multivac]

We already know that auditing works.

You may know that it works, but to me it is simply a Scientology money making system.

 

[dafydd]

You may know that it works, but to me it is simply a Scientology money making system.

It makes money, that is the point , so it works.

 

[Multivac]

A prayers like: "God, I ask that you don't let this plane crash" or "I hope this plane doesn't crash" seem to work but there's no double blind study that's been done.

Do you have any proof of planes not crashing because of prayers?

 

[dafydd]

Do you have any proof of planes not crashing because of prayers?

My money's on no.

 

[Multivac]

I understand this might be just your opinion, but I see it so often, I wonder that it hasn't become just an uninformed meme.

His bibliography is listed on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Ron_Hubbard_bibliography). An early work, as one example, was "To the Stars" published in 1950, the same year as Dianetics.

Wiki has this on "To the Stars":


My criticism is that some who use the "hack" appellation haven't even read his works and certainly aren't familiar with their literary value.

If I'm right, that doesn't reflect well on those who would be skeptics and critical thinkers, it just sounds like parroting the crowd. It's one thing to dislike or disagree with Scientology, but the ad hom is overkill.

I'd also like to point out Mitt Romney said "Battlefield Earth" was his favorite novel -- I don't suppose he's a supporter of Scientology?

(Since I expect someone will ask, is the New York Times good enough for a cite? http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/04/30/romney-favors-hubbard-novel/ )

I have read some of his work and to call him a hack is an insult to hard working hacks. Tenth rate would be a better description of his writing.

 

[pakeha]

Well, unreliable doesn't have to come in degrees. If the polygraph doesn't detect lies, and the e-meter doesn't detect what it's supposed to detect, using the same principles, we have the same question about purpose. ...Which makes me wonder what else might be going on. Are they used for the same thing, to elicit something from the person being questioned?

Perhaps you missed my last post about e-meters, marplots.

More about e-meters

http://askthescientologist.blogspot....y-e-meter.html
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=e-meter
http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/ebay-emeter.htm


Quote:
...On numerous occasions, Headley writes about the fabrication of "e-meters," the small devices that are supposed to work something like lie detectors. Scientologist auditors use them in counseling sessions, but they're also used during interrogations -- called "sec checks" -- during which church workers suspected of wrongdoing are pressured to confess their "crimes."

Headley mentions that the devices cost the church about $40 to make, but were then sold for about $3,000 each. What really caught our attention was Headley's assertion that Miscavige demanded that enough of a new line of e-meters be manufactured so that every member in the world could purchase two of them. (Headley says each working Scientologist is supposed to have a backup unit in case the other fails.)...
-http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2009/11/tom_cruise_was.php?page=2

I hope you'll find reading those linked articles will be informative.

I don't believe in AAP in a binary way or necessarily giving a decent rank order. However, to ignore what other humans think seems too shallow to work either.

One escape clause from AAP is to try to generalize so that groups can be usefully combined. That gets your populum numbers up. Ideally, you get it large enough that you only have to explain why the few you couldn't shoehorn in are the exceptions.

Quite.
That's why I took the trouble in investigate e-meters, so you and others could benefit from information, not generalisations.
One pattern which does emerge from humans groupings, no matter how large or small, is how very, very is it is to flimflam them.

 

[marplots]

For me, it is the value of reality over believing in non-existent, mythical creatures such as gods, demons, fairies and similar rubbish.

The problem is when the two don't intersect. What would our lives be like without the conceptual and the unreal? I like music, poetry and appreciate some mathematics. I like to think about future possibilities. If it's all rubbish, why even get out of bed? We all die, after all. Nothing we do survives much past our own deaths.

Try this. Science and an appreciation for reality are only valued because they inform us of possibility, give us options and tools to make the imagined substantial. A way to touch more of the world than we otherwise could, but not merely to touch, to impose on our world the products of our creative minds.

 

[marplots]

Perhaps you missed my last post about e-meters, marplots.


I hope you'll find reading those linked articles will be informative.

I took a look, but I fear I have lost the thrust of posting them. (The first e-meter link was broke by the way.)

Was it to make the point that they are simple technology being sold at high prices to church members?

 

[Multivac]

My money's on no.

Same here, but asked the question in a spirit of optimism.

 

[dafydd]

The problem is when the two don't intersect. What would our lives be like without the conceptual and the unreal? I like music, poetry and appreciate some mathematics. I like to think about future possibilities. If it's all rubbish, why even get out of bed? We all die, after all. Nothing we do survives much past our own deaths.

Try this. Science and an appreciation for reality are only valued because they inform us of possibility, give us options and tools to make the imagined substantial. A way to touch more of the world than we otherwise could, but not merely to touch, to impose on our world the products of our creative minds.

They can't intersect. The arts are real, the paranormal and the occult are not. Some people believe in that nonsense, if it makes them happy then fair enough, but they are only deluding themselves.

 

[dafydd]

I took a look, but I fear I have lost the thrust of posting them. (The first e-meter link was broke by the way.)

Was it to make the point that they are simple technology being sold at high prices to church members?

Yes. Four thousand dollars for a useless machine that costs about ten dollars to make.

 

[marplots]

Yes. Four thousand dollars for a useless machine that costs about ten dollars to make.

So why do they buy it?