Scientology abandoned by Hubbard's granddaughter & Miscavige's father

Justinian2 said:
The results of auditing aren't transitory either. The results aren't like going to see a movie when depressed and coming out of the theater laughing. The results aren't like being depressed before taking a drug and later being both depressed and hung over or too hung over to remember that you are depressed.

The results of auditing accumulate.
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Yes, so the Anderson Report found, too.
Anderson Report

In 1965 the Anderson Report, an official inquiry conducted for the state of Victoria, Australia, found that auditing involved a form of "authoritative" or "command" hypnosis, in which the hypnotist assumes "positive authoritative control" over the subject. "It is the firm conclusion of this Board that most scientology and dianetic techniques are those of authoritative hypnosis and as such are dangerous. ... the scientific evidence which the Board heard from several expert witnesses of the highest repute ... which was virtually unchallenged - leads to the inescapable conclusion that it is only in name that there is any difference between authoritative hypnosis and most of the techniques of scientology. Many scientology techniques are in fact hypnotic techniques, and Hubbard has not changed their nature by changing their names."[9]

As of 2011 auditing is considered a spiritual practice by the government of Australia
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditing_(Scientology)#Anderson_Report
 
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Justinian2 said:
DuvalHMFIC said:
In no way am I saying that people know everything. That's impossible. It is fairly possible to know SOME things though. Things like God isn't testable, auditing has never been shown in a double blind to work, QUOTE]

I wouldn't be so arrogant to say that the existence of god isn't testable. People are clever.

We already know that auditing works. I'm not even talking about the personality and IQ tests that are taken before and after each intensive. I'm talking about millions of sessions where the PC starts the session depressed, crying or sick and leaves the session happy and well. Like most Scientologists, we've seen the result both as PCs and auditors; on both sides of the cans.
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1. Currently, god isn't testable. I didn't say it would never be testable, although it's very definition is "faith", which is usually not testable by the very definition of the word. But yes, we are clever, maybe we will someday find a way to test this. My statement is still correct, we KNOW we can't test for god.

2. We don't already know auditing works. Saying that is like saying we know homeopothy works.

3. Sometimes I'm depressed. I talk to a friend, and I feel better. This is not earth-shattering news. Where do you think the term "would you like to talk about it" came from?
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DuvalHMFIC said:
Justinian2 said:
1. Currently, god isn't testable. I didn't say it would never be testable, although it's very definition is "faith", which is usually not testable by the very definition of the word. But yes, we are clever, maybe we will someday find a way to test this. My statement is still correct, we KNOW we can't test for god.

2. We don't already know auditing works. Saying that is like saying we know homeopothy works.

3. Sometimes I'm depressed. I talk to a friend, and I feel better. This is not earth-shattering news. Where do you think the term "would you like to talk about it" came from?
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Not so. You let a person free wheel too long and he'll cave himself in. Scientology doesn't let the PC ramble on about his problems or pain as that would cave him in.
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Justinian2 said:
I don't want to discuss the ending of any book, movie or process. Call it a hypothetical scenario if you must.

No Scientology materials or process to Clear and beyond has or will mention the things you've mentioned. The Scientology site, the Scientology Handbook and the materials sold by the bookstore do not mention what you've said.
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Whatever is or is not sold and where is interesting, Justinian and of course I appreciate that disclaimer for all it's worth.

However, YOU were the one who brought up the origins of the Universe:
The Universe started two ways:

1) It powered itself up (the big bang)
2) It continually gets rebooted.

It's hard to see how the universe can spontaneously create time and space after being nothing for an infinite period.

The concept of a continually rebooting universe pushes the real decision over the horizon.

Either way, logic fails.

The only concept that works is one in which the underlying real universe is far different than anything we could perceive.
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Remember?
All I've done is a Google search on just what Scientology tells us about the origins of the Universe.
I wanted to understand more about your beliefs.

Now just out of curiosity, why do you keep referring to movies when the subject of Xemu comes around?
 
Justinian2 said:
Not so. You let a person free wheel too long and he'll cave himself in. Scientology doesn't let the PC ramble on about his problems or pain as that would cave him in.
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I thought that caving yourself in was part of the process? Tell me about the pain, and keep telling me. First, you'll feel a little better, then a little annoyed, then you will want to quit. And supposedly THAT is where the auditor comes in. To make you keep going when you want to quit, right?

And I wholeheartedly disagree with your first statement. Many times I have had a friend who was upset, talked to me about it, maybe cried about it, and then felt a lot better. "A weight was lifted off my shoulder." You've just been duped into paying for a friend, that's all. A friend with a couple of useless cans, that seemed fancy in the '50s and '60s...now not so much.
 
AdMan said:
This is Justinian2's typical MO. I think Scientology inculcates this in its adherents fairly early on.
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This is your typical MO as you try to inculcate your opinions (brainwash) all who read your responses.

Are you connected to any psychiatric or medical organization and/or company including drug manufacturers?

I am a lifelong Scientologist. What's your gig?
 
Justinian2 said:
The Universe started two ways:

1) It powered itself up (the big bang)
2) It continually gets rebooted.

It's hard to see how the universe can spontaneously create time and space after being nothing for an infinite period.
The concept of a continually rebooting universe pushes the real decision over the horizon.

Either way, logic fails.

The only concept that works is one in which the underlying real universe is far different than anything we could perceive.
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If there was no time, then the universe wouldn't have been anything for any period.
 
Justinian2 said:
I have told you about the Xenu story without ruining it for anyone. I also don't tell people about how books and movies end.
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That courtesy applies to works of fiction. Not so much to non-fiction, where the value is in the information not the narrative structure.

Which category is the Xenu story in?

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
DuvalHMFIC said:
I thought that caving yourself in was part of the process? Tell me about the pain, and keep telling me. First, you'll feel a little better, then a little annoyed, then you will want to quit. And supposedly THAT is where the auditor comes in. To make you keep going when you want to quit, right?
And I wholeheartedly disagree with your first statement. Many times I have had a friend who was upset, talked to me about it, maybe cried about it, and then felt a lot better. "A weight was lifted off my shoulder." You've just been duped into paying for a friend, that's all. A friend with a couple of useless cans, that seemed fancy in the '50s and '60s...now not so much.
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No. 'Two Way Comm' on the Emeter is first process run on a new PC. It's part of the bridge called 'Life Repair'. During comm with the PC, when the auditor sees a read, he gets the PC to talk about the thought/idea that caused the read. Usually that brings about a quick resolution to the communication with a burst of tears followed by laughter and smiles. A PC isn't allowed to free wheel.
 
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Justinian2 said:
At OTVIII, a person is starting to learn how to be cause over MEST for the other dynamics.

Actually, everyone is able to effect the other dynamics. Even a jerk (Holms) can negatively effect the other dynamics.

Being able to surgically effect the other dynamics for the better requires constant learning and practice.

I am not complete cause over all MEST. It would be easier if I was a billionaire, but that misses the point too.

I don't want to be complete cause over all MEST because then I wouldn't have a game to play. A man needs some challenges. Maybe this thought is my Achilles heel. Maybe I don't want to responsible for everybody. Perhaps others also don't want me to be responsible for them.
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Everyone is able to effect (affect?) the other dynamics? Holmes (I assume you mean the Aurora Colorado shooter) used bullets. More specifically, he used his hands to operate machines (guns) to fire bullets to injure and kill people by striking their bodies with destructive force.

Is that how OTVIII's affect other dynamics too? With bullets? Or more generally, by using their hands to operate tools?

Surgically affecting other dynamics for the better sounds relatively easy. Just use your hands to shape materials and/or operate tools to do something or build something that helps people or improves their surroundings.

This week I installed a new toilet for a friend, to replace an old one that was working poorly and wasting water. In that way I affected various dynamics relating to matter and force, to fluid flows, to human comfort and relief, and to the fundamental elemental cycles of nature. This effect on MEST will persist for many years to come. And it was quite surgical (the nearby sink was unaffected) and definitely for the better.

But maybe I was able to be such an amazing cause over MEST because I didn't "start to learn" how to use my hands and tools at OTVIII. I started learning in early infancy, and progressed continuously through childhood.

I would stake my power over MEST, as far as toilets are concerned, to be equal or superior to any randomly selected OTVIII (though not equal to any randomly selected licensed plumber).

Or does OTVIIIs' cause over MEST involve something other than using their hands to operate tools? In that case, perhaps Holmes is a misleading example of how this discipline works or what it can achieve, and a clearer example will be forthcoming.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
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Justinian2 said:
This is your typical MO as you try to inculcate your opinions (brainwash) all who read your responses.

Are you connected to any psychiatric or medical organization and/or company including drug manufacturers?

I am a lifelong Scientologist. What's your gig?
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Is this the adult version of "I'm rubber you're glue, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you?"

And what exactly IS scientology? Is it a religion? Is it therapy? Is it a job (you say it's your lifelong gig)? In regards to psychiatry, that, of course, is another Scientology talking point. You know the difference? You can go to the psychiatrist for a little while, and never have to go back. Going by what you have stated in your own posts, you need auditing for life.

And since I'd like for you to actually answer these questions (not deflect to a different topic), I'll be happy to answer yours (even though it wasn't addressed to me personally.) I have no connection to psychiatry or the medical field in any way. I run a fitness equipment refurbishing/repair shop, and I'm going to school to get a degree in electrical engineering (which I believe you said is your area of expertise, no?)
 
Myriad said:
Everyone is able to effect (affect?) the other dynamics? Holmes (I assume you mean the Aurora Colorado shooter) used bullets. More specifically, he used his hands to operate machines (guns) to fire bullets to injure and kill people by striking their bodies with destructive force.

Is that how OTVIII's affect other dynamics too? With bullets? Or more generally, by using their hands to operate tools?

Surgically affecting other dynamics for the better sounds relatively easy. Just use your hands to shape materials and/or operate tools to do something or build something that helps people or improves their surroundings.

This week I installed a new toilet for a friend, to replace an old one that was working poorly and wasting water. In that way I affected various dynamics relating to matter and force, to fluid flows, to human comfort and relief, and to the fundamental elemental cycles of nature. This effect on MEST will persist for many years to come. And it was quite surgical (the nearby sink was unaffected) and definitely for the better.

But maybe I was able to be such an amazing cause over MEST because I didn't "start to learn" how to use my hands and tools at OTVIII. I started learning in early infancy, and progressed continuously through childhood.

I would stake my power over MEST, as far as toilets are concerned, to be equal or superior to any randomly selected OTVIII (though not equal to any randomly selected licensed plumber).

Or does OTVIIIs' cause over MEST involve something other than using their hands to operate tools? In that case, perhaps Holmes is a misleading example of how this discipline works or what it can achieve, and a clearer example will be forthcoming.

Respectfully,
Myriad
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That would certainly be cause over MEST that a clear might have at 4.0 (enthusiasm) on the tone scale. If it made you happy, then it was a moment at clear.

An OT can effect changes just by thinking about them when he is really, really up tone. Denial and anger don't produce OT changes.

Christians sometimes effect MEST by uptone prayer (as opposed to a command to God). If you want to be an OT, learn how to pray politely while exterior and happy.
 
Justinian2 said:
This is your typical MO as you try to inculcate your opinions (brainwash) all who read your responses.

Are you connected to any psychiatric or medical organization and/or company including drug manufacturers?
I am a lifelong Scientologist. What's your gig?
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Yes we know that LRon hated psychiatry and thus you were indoctrinated to hate it too. No need to point it out.

Scientology was still made up by a hack sci-fi writer as a way to make money. And you fell for it.

For the record, I have no connection to any psychiatry or medical organization/company. Well, to be totally truthful I invest in the pharmaceutical industry through mutual funds, I think.
 
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Justinian2 said:
That's your little trick. Who taught you that?

Considering I quoted marplots, it's fairly obvious what I was responding to. And that had nothing to do with the friggin' Big Bang or the beginning of the universe.
When you say that there is no god, you are talking about how the universe was created and you claim to know how the universe was started.



By your test methods, the non-existance of god or reincarnation isn't yet testable either.

I think that all things considered, the existence of reincarnation and supreme beings are the most plausible concepts.
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Do you have anything else in your bag of cult favors beyond "I know you are but what am I" and "look at the pretty birdy"?
 
Justinian2 said:
An OT can effect changes just by thinking about them when he is really, really up tone.
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This is not clear (in the normal English sense of the word: having unambiguous meaning).

What kind of changes can an OT effect just by thinking about them? Can you give some examples?

And what constraints does the need to be "really really up tone" place on this ability? For each example of a possible change you provide, can you also include an estimate of what percent of the time an OT is likely to be sufficiently up tone to achieve it?

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
Myriad said:
This is not clear (in the normal English sense of the word: having unambiguous meaning).

What kind of changes can an OT effect just by thinking about them? Can you give some examples?

And what constraints does the need to be "really really up tone" place on this ability? For each example of a possible change you provide, can you also include an estimate of what percent of the time an OT is likely to be sufficiently up tone to achieve it?

Respectfully,
Myriad
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Christians sometimes effect MEST by uptone prayer (as opposed to a command to God). If you want to be an OT, learn how to pray politely while exterior and happy.

A prayer like: "FU God, I'll burn down a church if you don't start doing me some favors" just doesn't get the job done.

A prayers like: "God, I ask that you don't let this plane crash" or "I hope this plane doesn't crash" seem to work but there's no double blind study that's been done.

No OT, as far as I know, can pick up a plane like superman. Sometimes what we do with our hands is all that we can do.

What happens to me, more often than not, is that an OT postulate gets converted to inspiration.
 
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