Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[This is The End]

Rational thought at its finest. Geez.

You don't think it's rational that at least one of several claims from separate people will turn out to be true?

I didn't say there was not a chance of them all being made up did I?

Assuming that every single one of the claims is probably made up is what is irrational.

 

[johnny karate]

Rational thought at its finest. Geez.

Yes, what we need is a photo of Zimmerman peppered with little blue arrows as documentation of his injuries in defiance of the medical reports.

Now that's rational thought.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Yes, what we need is a photo of Zimmerman peppered with little blue arrows as documentation of his injuries in defiance of the medical reports.

Now that's rational thought.

Actually I was thinking about doing something like that for each of your posts, except the little blue arrows would document the distortions and misstatements in your posts, but I already have a full time job. But might as well at least do it for one post.

 

[This is The End]

Actually I was thinking about doing something like that for each of your posts, except the little blue arrows would document the distortions and misstatements in your posts, but I already have a full time job. But might as well at least do it for one post.

Ummm. What exactly are you saying is the distortion or misstatement in JK's post?

As far as I remember the blue arrows in Cylinders picture did not match the medical reports. That's what "in defiance of the medical reports" means. That more blue arrows were added in spots that did not match the medical reports.

Could you point out exactly how JK is wrong about that?

 

[KatieG]

Actually I was thinking about doing something like that for each of your posts, except the little blue arrows would document the distortions and misstatements in your posts, but I already have a full time job. But might as well at least do it for one post.

Seriously?

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Seriously?

Katie, I like you, but your post adds nothing and I'm tired of games. Johnny made a typical assertion, he states that Cylindir posts with arrows were in "defiance of the medical reports". How were they in defiance of the medical reports? He does not say.

Now you add in "seriously". If you agree with Johnny's assertion, then show us how Cylinder's posts "defied the medical reports". Maybe they did, so I'm eager to see the evidence, not just the claim.

 

[johnny karate]

Actually I was thinking about doing something like that for each of your posts, except the little blue arrows would document the distortions and misstatements in your posts, but I already have a full time job. But might as well at least do it for one post.

Unfortunately, I am on a mobile device, so I can't go back through the thread(s) and pull up Cylinder's picture.

(Perhaps someone could offer an assist?)

But he indicates I'd say close to two dozen "injuries" on Zimmerman's face and head.

The medical reports indicate four.

The mathematically astute will note a discrepancy.

When you claim injuries exist that are not documented by the medical reports, you are making those claims in defiance of the medical reports.

So... you are wrong.

I'll be over here holding my breath in anticipation of your acknowledgement and apology.

 

[Unabogie]

Katie, I like you, but your post adds nothing and I'm tired of games. Johnny made a typical assertion, he states that Cylindir posts with arrows were in "defiance of the medical reports". How were they in defiance of the medical reports? He does not say.

Now you add in "seriously". If you agree with Johnny's assertion, then show us how Cylinder's posts "defied the medical reports". Maybe they did, so I'm eager to see the evidence, not just the claim.

Did you see Cylinder's picture with 50 blue arrows? The medical report (by a P.A., not an M.D., for what it's worth) says 3 injuries. 2 small cuts (2 cm and .5 cm) and a "likely broken nose". The EMT says he saw one forehead abrasion.

That is so far from 50 arrows, I don't understand why you're even arguing the point, if not to continue attacking posters instead of posts.

 

[This is The End]

Katie, I like you, but your post adds nothing and I'm tired of games.

That's weird, the last game playing I saw was your previous post...

Johnny made a typical assertion, he states that Cylindir posts with arrows were in "defiance of the medical reports". How were they in defiance of the medical reports? He does not say.

Now you add in "seriously". If you agree with Johnny's assertion, then show us how Cylinder's posts "defied the medical reports". Maybe they did, so I'm eager to see the evidence, not just the claim.

So what you are saying is you missed the posts in the previous thread where JK showed us how Cylinder's blue arrows did not match up with the known injuries.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Unfortunately, I am on a mobile device, so I can't go back through the thread(s) and pull up Cylinder's picture.

(Perhaps someone could offer an assist?)

But he indicates I'd say close to two dozen "injuries" on Zimmerman's face and head.

The medical reports indicate four.

The mathematically astute will note a discrepancy.

When you claim injuries exist that are not documented by the medical reports, you are making those claims in defiance of the medical reports.

So... you are wrong.

I'll be over here holding my breath in anticipation of your acknowledgement and apology.

As I suspected you were doing, you're twisting what actually took place. He did show a picture where he highlighted GZ's assorted cuts, scrapes and bruises, including the very small ones that the medical report probably didn't bother listing because they were so minor. That does NOT equal his picture being "in defiance" of the medical reports in any way shape nor form, except in bizarro universe logic.

 

[Unabogie]

As I suspected you were doing, you're twisting what actually took place. He did show a picture where he highlighted GZ's assorted cuts, scrapes and bruises, including the very small ones that the medical report probably didn't bother listing because they were so minor. That does NOT equal his picture being "in defiance" of the medical reports in any way shape nor form, except in bizarro universe logic.

Those were most likely dried blood. Unless you're also saying that the vast majority of his "cuts, scrapes, and bruises" were so minor that the medical personnel didn't even think they warranted a listing? But on the other hand they were so severe they warranted shooting Trayvon in the chest?

Besides, you mentioned "bruises". He had no bruises. No medical professional saw bruises and it appears in no official documentation, not even in his self-serving visit to his personal doctor's office.

Talk about playing games.

 

[This is The End]

including the very small ones that the medical report probably didn't bother listing because they were so minor.

If by "minor" you mean "didn't exist".

 

[johnny karate]

Katie, I like you, but your post adds nothing and I'm tired of games. Johnny made a typical assertion, he states that Cylindir posts with arrows were in "defiance of the medical reports". How were they in defiance of the medical reports? He does not say.

Now you add in "seriously". If you agree with Johnny's assertion, then show us how Cylinder's posts "defied the medical reports". Maybe they did, so I'm eager to see the evidence, not just the claim.

What's great is how you didn't bother to wait to find out if I was wrong before telling me I was wrong.

Crow. It's what's for dinner.

 

[johnny karate]

As I suspected you were doing, you're twisting what actually took place. He did show a picture where he highlighted GZ's assorted cuts, scrapes and bruises, including the very small ones that the medical report probably didn't bother listing because they were so minor. That does NOT equal his picture being "in defiance" of the medical reports in any way shape nor form, except in bizarro universe logic.

When one claims that injuries exist that the medical reports do not document, that is a claim in defiance of the medical reports.

It is a claim that something exists which the evidence says does not exist.

 

[Cylinder]

Those were most likely dried blood. Unless you're also saying that the vast majority of his "cuts, scrapes, and bruises" were so minor that the medical personnel didn't even think they warranted a listing? But on the other hand they were so severe they warranted shooting Trayvon in the chest?

No. The multiple injury sites are evidence against a one punch/one fall narrative being promoted here. Injuries that exist on a photograph taken by the police, after being under constant observation except for the few seconds it took W13 to step outside and encounter Zimmerman do not cease to exist because they don't appear tin a treatment report.

As I stated before, I used the full resolution images to look for actual damamge to the skin and compared them to W12s photo of Zimmerman at the scene. Some of them may well be dried blood - I'm not an Orthodox Anti-Zimmermanist and thus can accept actual evidence.

As the saying goes, it is what it is. Call it 4 injuries if you like. The arrows are what I identified as probable injury sites.

 

[Kaosium]

“Witness 9” accused Zimmerman of sexually molesting her
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/16/2897557/zimmerman-defense-attorney-will.html

“witness 9,” 26, called investigators several days after the shooting of Trayvon Martin to say that Zimmerman and his family were racists who disliked blacks. She also called the Seminole County state attorney about three weeks later with more-serious allegations:

1. When she was 6 - The children would hang out on sofas under blankets watching TV, and Zimmerman, she claims, would take the opportunity to fondle her and penetrate her with his fingers, even though there were other people in the room.

2. Every time the families visited, Zimmerman would grope her behind curtains and touch her inappropriately.

3. Once, when she was about 12, he allegedly made her rub his penis.

4. When she was 16 - he lay down next to her with an erection and began kissing her and rubbing her chest, but she got up and ran out. He chased her as far as the front door but no further.

5. When she was 20, she told her sister, and her sister told their parents.
Her parents had a meeting with Zimmerman at a restaurant. “He sat down at the end of the booth, said, ‘I’m sorry,’ and got up and walked out,” After that, Zimmerman was never invited to joint family functions.


Kaosium, I agree that when she was 6 and he was 8 they were both children. George was probably exploring, may have seen a porno and was curious or something.

At the age of 12 for her and 14 for him that is another matter. Twelve year olds regularly babysit younger children. There is no way they both didn't know what was going on. Now it could have been kissing cousins behaving badly, but according to her he made her do things she didn't want to do.

Then at ages 16 and 18 it finally ends after she runs for it.

One thing that gives Witness 9 credibility is that she brought other witnesses into it. She mentions her sister and parents. The whole family would be witnesses to GZ no longer being invited to family functions. That is a lot of people who would be able to vouch that this is not a new story from Witness 9. It is true that no one but Witness 9 and GZ really knows what happened between them.

If GZ's character is brought up in the trial she could be called as a witness. I would imagine her family could be called to corroborate her story at that point.

Do we use this information to judge GZ in relation to the TM case? There are character traits that are important to the conversation. If he forced his cousin into sexual situations she wasn't okay with he would need to hide it from the adults around them. He would present one face to the public of the family and another to his cousin. It would show he is deceptive.

We still don't know how the confrontation with TM began. According to GZ, TM was suddenly there. According to DeeDee GZ was following TM.

Witness 9 is yet another clue on how trustworthy GZ's version of what happened is.

I just realized it's really stupid to say you're done with a thread, it makes one feel like a dumbass responding to something. So I ought to remember not to say it again!

Draca, please read that link, the whole thing. Follow the other ones too and perhaps you'll understand what I'm getting at. Thank you for accumulating that information about the accusation, it was helpful as you'll note what she describes is not force. If one can just speak up or extricate themselves then that's not force, despite other words she uses to describe it for whatever reason.

Also from the link you might find that many people come to him with shame and guilt about those sorts of experiences, others don't I guess. Some blame themselves, that's bad. Some blame others, and if it's like this that's bad too. Looks like that's what happened, and she didn't go to someone like the doctor in the link. I found the psychology more firmly based in genetics and biology more likely to be correct. There's also other points of view, and it does appear that's more popular with some. I'm not going to argue it.

Sorry for the abruptness of my post, I don't have much time and wanted to answer. I think this one will probably end up the way it ought, however even if it doesn't one thing I did note doing that research on the appeals process is O'Mara's preserved enough errors already and no doubt there will be more if it goes the wrong way! I can understand from a pragmatic point of view why one could figure, guilty or not, George Zimmerman needs to go down for whatever reason, and I can think of a few. Fair enough. It will get sorted out in the end is my guess. That he was (highly likely) getting his head thumped and screaming for help is a huge clue he didn't commit murder, that was a dumbass charge in my view and will lead to nothing good.

Thanks Johnny, you have some class. I think the answer would be more along the lines of figure the odds you caught such a 'monster' just because the police were charged with just letting him go uninjured and doing a 'poor investigation!' I think it more likely people just find anything they can and put it in the worst terms possible, it's a technique you know. Anyway this changed my mind on concealed carry, didn't much care before but now realize all those people walking around with hidden guns is a piss poor idea, they're called cell phones people! Use them, summon trained men with guns. No need for a gun. I once read 'an armed society is a polite society,' that may be true but will only lead to a lot of dead jerks. They have rights too!

 

[Cylinder]

BTW, since the injuries don't exist at least we've established that he didn't fake them - or Taffe or Robert or whatever...

See, that's progress.

 

[KatieG]

Katie, I like you, but your post adds nothing and I'm tired of games. Johnny made a typical assertion, he states that Cylindir posts with arrows were in "defiance of the medical reports". How were they in defiance of the medical reports? He does not say.

Now you add in "seriously". If you agree with Johnny's assertion, then show us how Cylinder's posts "defied the medical reports". Maybe they did, so I'm eager to see the evidence, not just the claim.

I had difficulty with your post because it's ridiculous on the surface. However many pages back, Cylinder posted a picture of GZ with numerous blue arrows pointing to god knows how many tiny scrapes and scratches on his head. The medical report doesn't indicate that number of wounds on GZ. Maybe he cut his scalp shaving his head. Maybe he was playing with his dog and the dog's claws caused some of the scratches. We don't know. I found the picture to be way over the top but I let it pass. Others took up the gauntlet and the pages moved on.

Ya know, I'm tired of games too. Goal post moving, ducking and dodging, semantics games, parsing of a single word from a lengthy post, it's exhausting. Sometimes I get more cardio exercise here than I do at physical therapy.

 

[Mumbles]

And therefore, since it's a possibility, we must accept it as truth and hand wave away any of those nasty "George is a child rapist" thoughts from our beautiful minds.

So to recap all the things that happened to poor George in the last eight ten plus years:

1. He was accused of being a serial molester and rapist by his cousin.
2. His girlfriend got a restraining order against him for being violent.
3. He assaulted a DEA agent.
4. He conspired with his wife to hide $135,000 and a passport and got his wife charged with perjury.
5. And of course, the reason we're all here, he shot and killed an unarmed teenager who was walking home from the store, and claimed "self-defense" and that it was all god's plan.

Clearly, the only "naturally skeptical" view of any of this is to take him at his word and cast suspicion on the police and prosecutors.

I think this is a reason why this whole thing hits me on a personal level. I've been accused of several crimes, among others:

Of jumping a turnstile (even when witnesses stated that I paid and walked through it)

Of being a robber (when I had a clear alibi)

Of having beaten someone inflict (when, again, I had a clear alibi - granted, I did resemble the actual attacker, so this one's not too bad)

Of being "suspicious" ( on more occasions than I can count)

The difference is, I'm a black guy. I'm fully used to people freaking out because they see me walking down a street, or grabbing up items in a store because I looked at them. And so it's fully believable to me that Zimmerman decided that Martin was "suspicious" because he was milling about while talking on his cell phone at night. That sort of absurd assumption happens all the time, in my experience. The key difference is, people usually decide to run away, rather than to chase the person they've decided is "suspicious", for no real reason.

But sorry, I've never had an ex accuse me of violence, or a cousin accuse me of rape or molestation.

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

Katie, I like you, but your post adds nothing and I'm tired of games. Johnny made a typical assertion, he states that Cylindir posts with arrows were in "defiance of the medical reports". How were they in defiance of the medical reports? He does not say.

Now you add in "seriously". If you agree with Johnny's assertion, then show us how Cylinder's posts "defied the medical reports". Maybe they did, so I'm eager to see the evidence, not just the claim.

The medical reports didn't say Z had blue arrows on his face...