Scientology abandoned by Hubbard's granddaughter & Miscavige's father

[shuttlt]

Hi Justinian,

I've got a naive question. I hope it hasn't been asked already.

Do you claim that Scientology is "True" in some way that is different and perhaps goes beyond the way Catholocism, or Islam, or New Age woo etc are "True"? For myself, I see them as "True" at a personal or community level, but not as True desciption of physical reality. Does that make sense? Is the claim that Scientology is one of many spiritual paths that may have some personal validity, and may help you find your way in life, improve your interactions with others, give you a community, teach you some practical skills. Or is the claim that there are in fact real things called Thetans (or what ever it is that Freezone people believe in) and that there is a reason for believing in them over and above the reasons for beliving in Thor?

I'm curious.

Personally I'm perfectly willing to believe that some people find auditing helpful.

 

[shuttlt]

Clear is a term that I'm using to mean more sane than normal. A lot of people have clear moments, especially at their job. James Holmes was thought to be sane before he exhibited his insanity. I'm trying to use a term that would exclude people that aren't sane even if society brands them as sane.

What does sanity mean to you?
What does insanity mean to you?
You would probably use alternate words. What are they?

Is the origin of "clear" the expression "a moment of clarity". That's the vibe I'm getting at the moment. To me that isn't really about sanity, or insanity, so much as a moment where you feel your awareness of your situation, or some problem is heightened and you achieve a God's eye view as it were.

 

[marplots]

Is the origin of "clear" the expression "a moment of clarity". That's the vibe I'm getting at the moment. To me that isn't really about sanity, or insanity, so much as a moment where you feel your awareness of your situation, or some problem is heightened and you achieve a God's eye view as it were.

Try it this way. If someone is suffering delusions (and "psychotic" does fit) and then abandons those delusions, they are experiencing the world clearly. Hence, "clear."

Alternatively, I like the word "clean". As in scrubbing out the junk and revealing the person underneath. Clarity, cleanliness, being lucid -- all of these are getting at the same idea.

Scientology is often framed by outsiders as adding a layer of bunk. From the inside, it is removing a layer (or many) of bunk that already exists.

Instead of focusing on perceived damage that Scientology does, it might be better to look at why people join, what they get out of it, and whether or not it improves their lives. "When the patient is ready, the physician appears."

 

[shuttlt]

Try it this way. If someone is suffering delusions (and "psychotic" does fit) and then abandons those delusions, they are experiencing the world clearly. Hence, "clear."

Alternatively, I like the word "clean". As in scrubbing out the junk and revealing the person underneath. Clarity, cleanliness, being lucid -- all of these are getting at the same idea.

Scientology is often framed by outsiders as adding a layer of bunk. From the inside, it is removing a layer (or many) of bunk that already exists.

Instead of focusing on perceived damage that Scientology does, it might be better to look at why people join, what they get out of it, and whether or not it improves their lives. "When the patient is ready, the physician appears."

Sounds kind of like Sufism to me, at least what little I know of it, or Buddhism. Strip away all the baggage and attain some promised ideal state.

Is it more "True" than Sufism?

 

[InkBlotTest]

So does all this mean that "Auditing" is another word for psychological counselling and "Clear" is another way of saying that you have come to terms with the crap life throws at you?

If it is, why wouldn't you go to a profressional and not bother with the bad spaceman story? I'm sure it would cost a lot less.

IBT

 

[Justinian2]

People in Scientology sessions spontaneously started going past track to earlier lives. If you believe in past lives, then the existence of the thetan or spirit is natural.

It's easy to believe that you lived a previous life while in session. Later, you are skeptical about the past life you visited. Then you do it again and you are sure. But later you again become skeptical. At any rate, using my own words and ideas, auditing does seem to access your inner 'program'/'programming' and is beneficial.

In this day and age of computers, designing a virtual reality is possible. If the virtual reality is possible and equal to this life, then thetans, past lives, heaven, hell, angels and spirits are all possible. How probable are they? Nobody can yet say.

 

[tsig]

To avoid the Miscavige's Church of Scientology is one thing - although it can be good if you sufficient wealth to pay for enough auditing to release you from the addictive need for their church. [If you don't think that was an original thought ("I'm not sure I've seen one unique thought that was your own.") then the dark side is with you.]

It's quite another thing to call all Scientologists the same (A=A) or to lump all Scientology together (the Freezone and the Church).

I was talking prevously about the desire of non-clears for punishment when you replied. If that implies that you love to punish people you classify as bad, then I'm glad that I'm not your friend.

Auditing to escape Scientology?

 

[Chris L]

Instead of focusing on perceived damage that Scientology does, it might be better to look at why people join, what they get out of it, and whether or not it improves their lives. "When the patient is ready, the physician appears."

In the case of Lisa McPherson, the damage was more than just a perception. A group of grown ups stood around and watched a woman die, all because what little powers of critical thinking they had were crushed under the weight of church dogma. None of the people responsible for looking after her had the common sense to see what was happening or the courage to do something about it. They preferred to stick their thumbs up their asses and chant buzz words created by a hack Sci Fi writer.

 

[tsig]

Holy hell reading through all of Justinian's responses, am I ever glad that I ran away from the Church like a cheetah when I did.

You spit out these obviously pre-fabricated lines, all of which have undertones of Hubbard's "philosophy." I'm not sure I've seen one unique thought that was your own.

Again man, if it works for you, great (I guess). I'm just extremely happy I didn't walk down that road.

The fun thing is to get them so far off message that they have to return to the mothership for a mind tune.

 

[tsig]

Try it this way. If someone is suffering delusions (and "psychotic" does fit) and then abandons those delusions, they are experiencing the world clearly. Hence, "clear."

Alternatively, I like the word "clean". As in scrubbing out the junk and revealing the person underneath. Clarity, cleanliness, being lucid -- all of these are getting at the same idea.
Scientology is often framed by outsiders as adding a layer of bunk. From the inside, it is removing a layer (or many) of bunk that already exists.

Instead of focusing on perceived damage that Scientology does, it might be better to look at why people join, what they get out of it, and whether or not it improves their lives. "When the patient is ready, the physician appears."

So it's brainwashing.

 

[tsig]

I would think that the planet is "morally repugnant". Any planet that allows the sale of AK47s is "morally repugnant" in my book.

Maybe Xenu should just wish us all into the volcanoes. Again.

 

[InkBlotTest]

People in Scientology sessions spontaneously started going past track to earlier lives. If you believe in past lives, then the existence of the thetan or spirit is natural.

It's easy to believe that you lived a previous life while in session. Later, you are skeptical about the past life you visited. Then you do it again and you are sure. But later you again become skeptical. At any rate, using my own words and ideas, auditing does seem to access your inner 'program'/'programming' and is beneficial.

In this day and age of computers, designing a virtual reality is possible. If the virtual reality is possible and equal to this life, then thetans, past lives, heaven, hell, angels and spirits are all possible. How probable are they? Nobody can yet say.

Para 1 - "Past track" - Gibberish phrase that means nothing
Para 2 - How can you be sure and then not be sure? I looked up the word sure and it means "in no doubt". Also, I ask again is Auditing another word for psycological evaluation?
Para 3 - Woo gibberish

IBT

 

[shuttlt]

People in Scientology sessions spontaneously started going past track to earlier lives. If you believe in past lives, then the existence of the thetan or spirit is natural.

It's easy to believe that you lived a previous life while in session. Later, you are skeptical about the past life you visited. Then you do it again and you are sure. But later you again become skeptical. At any rate, using my own words and ideas, auditing does seem to access your inner 'program'/'programming' and is beneficial.

In this day and age of computers, designing a virtual reality is possible. If the virtual reality is possible and equal to this life, then thetans, past lives, heaven, hell, angels and spirits are all possible. How probable are they? Nobody can yet say.

But none of this is any Truer than Sufism, it just happens to be the Truth that you have chosen, no? Past life regression done by Scientologists can't be done in a way that brings back any evidence any more than past life regression done by a hypnotist can. Isn't it just like Geller - Scientology can do all kinds for incredible things (past lives, go clear, etc...) that happen to coincide exactly with what would be possible if it was all achieved by boring, everyday means - wishful thinking, etc...

What do you think the likelihood is that Scientology is wishful thinking and a random pile of techniques some of which work (and the rest don't work at all) in a boring every day way, like any other talking cure, and in fact Sufism is the Truth?

 

[shuttlt]

People in Scientology sessions spontaneously started going past track to earlier lives. If you believe in past lives, then the existence of the thetan or spirit is natural.

It's easy to believe that you lived a previous life while in session. Later, you are skeptical about the past life you visited. Then you do it again and you are sure. But later you again become skeptical. At any rate, using my own words and ideas, auditing does seem to access your inner 'program'/'programming' and is beneficial.

In this day and age of computers, designing a virtual reality is possible. If the virtual reality is possible and equal to this life, then thetans, past lives, heaven, hell, angels and spirits are all possible. How probable are they? Nobody can yet say.

I don't think it moves things forwards to say that Thetans are probably true if past life regression is true, or that Thetans are true if the world as we know it is in fact virtual reality being artifically simulated somehow in the true reality.

I might as well defend a belief in Islam by saying that it makes perfect sense if you believe that there is no God but Allah. Taking one claim that your audience doesn't accept and linking it to another claim you know they won't accept either doesn't help much. At best it allows us to empathise a bit, but it brings us no closer to agreeing with you.

 

[marplots]

Sounds kind of like Sufism to me, at least what little I know of it, or Buddhism. Strip away all the baggage and attain some promised ideal state.

Is it more "True" than Sufism?

I don't know. I'm not familiar with Sufism. I would guess that truth and falsehood aren't good metrics though.

 

[marplots]

So it's brainwashing.

How about a word with less baggage? "Brain cleansing" comes to mind.

Surely you are familiar with the notion of suddenly understanding something that was previously obscured? Perhaps calculus suddenly 'clicked' or you turned some inner switch and understood your parents in a new way. It is very personal, but I think it happens now and again to most of us.

 

[marplots]

Para 1 - "Past track" - Gibberish phrase that means nothing
Para 2 - How can you be sure and then not be sure? I looked up the word sure and it means "in no doubt". Also, I ask again is Auditing another word for psycological evaluation?
Para 3 - Woo gibberish

IBT

Hubbard clicked on an important thing that's embodied in the new-speak. The purpose is to create words that don't come with the connections familiar words have. It's similar to how each scientific discipline creates its own terms as a kind of shorthand and with the desired specificity. I think physics runs into problems because it so often reuses terms that have everyday meanings, so that "force", "energy" and others are the cause of some miscommunication.

The price paid is that adherents run the risk of triggering a feeling of "woo gibberish" when speaking to those outside the discipline. "Tone scale" is as confusing as "Hilbert space" to someone who doesn't have the conceptual background. It's also why Scientologists so often avoid discussing things with non-Scientologists -- two different languages.

 

[Chris L]

How about a word with less baggage? "Brain cleansing" comes to mind.

Surely you are familiar with the notion of suddenly understanding something that was previously obscured? Perhaps calculus suddenly 'clicked' or you turned some inner switch and understood your parents in a new way. It is very personal, but I think it happens now and again to most of us.

The difference is that calculus is something you demonstrate to other people. Past lives and other "epiphanies" are not. So as far as the rest of the universe is concerned, you are still just imagining things.

 

[hgc]

How about a word with less baggage? "Brain cleansing" comes to mind.

Surely you are familiar with the notion of suddenly understanding something that was previously obscured? Perhaps calculus suddenly 'clicked' or you turned some inner switch and understood your parents in a new way. It is very personal, but I think it happens now and again to most of us.

So by learning Calculus, you become more sane?

 

[hgc]

It's similar to how each scientific discipline creates its own terms as a kind of shorthand and with the desired specificity. I think physics runs into problems because it so often reuses terms that have everyday meanings, so that "force", "energy" and others are the cause of some miscommunication.

In scientific disciplines and other groups of common interest, jargon arises out of a need to communicate efficiently about concepts with which group members are all likely familiar.

Physics has no problem with the terms "force" and "energy." It's no problem that these terms have meanings much less rigorous and specific in everyday speech. It's only when the ignorati apply those words in their everyday meaning to explicit scientific concepts that things go haywire. Read: Fashionable Nonsense.

The price paid is that adherents run the risk of triggering a feeling of "woo gibberish" when speaking to those outside the discipline. "Tone scale" is as confusing as "Hilbert space" to someone who doesn't have the conceptual background. It's also why Scientologists so often avoid discussing things with non-Scientologists -- two different languages.

"Tone scale" is a fine term, with a very specific meaning that is well understood by members and observers Scientology. I'm not too bothered by the re-use of "tone" in this context -- it already has broad variations in meaning in common speech (as opposed to, say, "psychotic"). The problem with "tone scale" is that it describes a completely non-existent entity that is believed by Scn adherents to be real. It is woo gibberish. I say that not because I don't understand it, but because I do.