Scientology abandoned by Hubbard's granddaughter & Miscavige's father

[Rrose Selavy]

Again, you put a different spin on the story than by people who knew him. He was sick. His wife was put in jail.

Here is a quote from Wikipedia:



This was the era that we lived in. It's actually not too different now.

Ah yes funny you mention McCarthyism. Not that LRH ever stooped that low.....

Apart from what he considered to be inherent dangers in allowing anyone to audit anyone, Winter had also begun to doubt whether the state of 'clear' was realistically obtainable. Finally, he was frustrated by the fact that the Research Foundation was making absolutely no attempt to conduct any serious scientific research, which was one of its avowed aims. He had voiced his growing concern on several occasions, only to be airily dismissed by Hubbard. It became clear to Winter that he had no alternative but to resign.[7]
Art Ceppos was largely in sympathy with Winter and also submitted his resignation. Hubbard's reaction was typically immoderate. Angry and bitter at what he considered to be a betrayal by two of his earliest supporters, he spread the word that Winter and Ceppos had been plotting to seize
control of the Foundation and had consequently been 'forced' to resign.[8]
It was not Hubbard's style to be satisfied with simply blackening the reputation of his enemies - he wanted revenge. An opportunity presented itself in the unlovely form of Senator Joe McCarthy, the self-seeking demagogue who, in February 1950, had accused the State Department of being riddled with Communists and Communist sympathizers. The atmosphere of fear and suspicion generated during the witch-hunts that followed cast a shadow across America; almost nothing was worse, during the era of McCarthyism, than to be a 'Commie', or be thought to be a 'Commie'. On 3 November 1950, the general counsel of the Hubbard Dianetic Research Foundation in Elizabeth contacted the FBI and said that Art Ceppos, president of Hermitage House, was a Communist sympathizer who had recently tried to get hold of the Foundation's mailing list of sixteen thousand names which would be 'valuable to anyone interested in circulating Communist party literature'.[9]

from Russell Miller's Biog.

 

[Chris L]

Ah yes funny you mention McCarthyism. Not that LRH ever stooped that low.....



from Russell Miller's Biog.

I guess when you're saving the planet, the phrase "morally repugnant" has no meaning.

 

[Justinian2]

All of which has nothing to do with what we are talking about, as Hubbard died about 30 years after that. His wife was indicted on organizing an effort to spy on those looking into what the CoS was getting into. She did it on his behalf and with his permission. He is also the one who wrote the infamous Fair Play memo where he tells the faithful that silencing critics by any means necessary is perfectly fine. You really need to read a genuine (not church scrubbed) biography of LRH, otherwise you will be lost in this conversation.

I've talked to thirty people that met Hubbard personally. Without reservation, they thought highly of Hubbard.

If you read any police-type report, you realize that their total intent is to be 100% negative with exaggerations, and speculation galore. Unfortunately we live in a world of dishonest government. The CIA term for partial dishonesty is called plausible deniability.

 

[Brainache]

I've talked to thirty people that met Hubbard personally. Without reservation, they thought highly of Hubbard.

If you read any police-type report, you realize that their total intent is to be 100% negative with exaggerations, and speculation galore. Unfortunately we live in a world of dishonest government. The CIA term for partial dishonesty is called plausible deniability.

And the Scientology term for total dishonesty is apparently "Fair Play".

 

[Justinian2]

And the Scientology term for total dishonesty is apparently "Fair Play".

I have actually not seen that term used by Scientology. I've seen "Fair Play" used a lot by government, lawyers, police and judges. However, Scientologists don't as a rule believe in punishment.

Police officers will shoot someone dead and frequently get away with it by saying "I was afraid for my life". That's a sort of fair play, isn't it?

Scientologists at the level of clear or above think punishment is a manifestation of being stuck in the past which they call psychotic. Scientologists think that punishing or controlling bodies is VERY low on the tone scale. Consequently, a clear doesn't punish. He will support restitution, but he will not punish.

The irony is that the term "Fair Play" is used against Scientologists more than it is used by them simply because "Fair Play" is the game non Scientologists use every day.

 

[Justinian2]

I guess when you're saving the planet, the phrase "morally repugnant" has no meaning.

I would think that the planet is "morally repugnant". Any planet that allows the sale of AK47s is "morally repugnant" in my book.

 

[DuvalHMFIC]

Holy hell reading through all of Justinian's responses, am I ever glad that I ran away from the Church like a cheetah when I did.

You spit out these obviously pre-fabricated lines, all of which have undertones of Hubbard's "philosophy." I'm not sure I've seen one unique thought that was your own.

Again man, if it works for you, great (I guess). I'm just extremely happy I didn't walk down that road.

 

[hgc]

Scientologists at the level of clear or above think punishment is a manifestation of being stuck in the past which they call psychotic.

Do Scientologists at that level not realize that the word "psychotic" already means something else entirely? Why not make up a new word to describe your punishment fantasy?

 

[Krikkiter]

The most objectionable part to me was the Miscavige era timeshare sales type techniques the Church of Miscavige employed.

The next objectionable thing was the Miscavige era 'Sec checking' the main church would use. The tortorous part of this was it was called "NOT AUDITING" which is not "Nots Auditing" but is actually the reverse of auditing. The auditor waits for you to confess to a crime/overt while you are paying the hundreds of dollars an hour for his services.

The Freezone has never done any of the above.

The Church of Scientology under Hubbard and before the FBI infiltration and MisCavige, did this much differently and even got good results. Comparing these processes under Hubbard to those under Miscavige is like comparing the use of pepper as a spice instead of as the main course.

Miscavige was never an auditor and never a clear or OT. He rose to the top possibly with a forged signature. LRH may have granted him the right to sign his signature in order to escape prosecution for Scientology's counter espionage against the FBI.

No no, you missed my point. Scientology - so-called freezone or not - is objectionable. That's it. Done. It doesn't matter who's interpreting what, the basic ideas are the same and it's all a massive con (to pull chicks and make money by the looks of it - what's that saying..? In this country, you gotta make the money first. Then when you get the money, you get the power... ahh never mind).

You crazy freezone people still use those silly electronic dead ends don't you?

And worse even than that, you pretend that it was all great back in the day when good ole Ron was a preachin the truth about alien invasions and brainwashing implants. Damned Miscarriage just corrupted all the great ideas.

FSM

 

[Krikkiter]

I would think that the planet is "morally repugnant". Any planet that allows the sale of AK47s is "morally repugnant" in my book.

So you find the sale of automatic firearms morally repugnant. And what are you doing about that?

 

[Justinian2]

Holy hell reading through all of Justinian's responses, am I ever glad that I ran away from the Church like a cheetah when I did.

You spit out these obviously pre-fabricated lines, all of which have undertones of Hubbard's "philosophy." I'm not sure I've seen one unique thought that was your own.

Again man, if it works for you, great (I guess). I'm just extremely happy I didn't walk down that road.

To avoid the Miscavige's Church of Scientology is one thing - although it can be good if you sufficient wealth to pay for enough auditing to release you from the addictive need for their church. [If you don't think that was an original thought ("I'm not sure I've seen one unique thought that was your own.") then the dark side is with you.]

It's quite another thing to call all Scientologists the same (A=A) or to lump all Scientology together (the Freezone and the Church).

I was talking prevously about the desire of non-clears for punishment when you replied. If that implies that you love to punish people you classify as bad, then I'm glad that I'm not your friend.

 

[Justinian2]

Do Scientologists at that level not realize that the word "psychotic" already means something else entirely? Why not make up a new word to describe your punishment fantasy?

Now you criticize Scientology for not making up their own word?

 

[Krikkiter]

Now you criticize Scientology for not making up their own word?

"Psychotic" already has an accepted, generally understood meaning. Get your own word and stop trying to corrupt ours.

 

[DuvalHMFIC]

To avoid the Miscavige's Church of Scientology is one thing - although it can be good if you sufficient wealth to pay for enough auditing to release you from the addictive need for their church. [If you don't think that was an original thought ("I'm not sure I've seen one unique thought that was your own.") then the dark side is with you.]

It's quite another thing to call all Scientologists the same (A=A) or to lump all Scientology together (the Freezone and the Church).

I was talking prevously about the desire of non-clears for punishment when you replied. If that implies that you love to punish people you classify as bad, then I'm glad that I'm not your friend.

Sounds to me like Freezone propaganda, but maybe I'm wrong. And even still, you feel the need to defend it to the bitter end "although it can be good..." Audited to release you from the addictive need for the church? Do you actually see what you just typed there? The church can fix the problem-that THEY created.

 

[Justinian2]

So you find the sale of automatic firearms morally repugnant. And what are you doing about that?

I communicate to newspapers and politicians more that most others and I have a blog.

Politicians just do what they think their constituents want. Newspapers just do what their readers want. Unfortunately, the constituents and readers are very non-clear, so I work towards making people more clear in a very tiny way.

 

[hgc]

Now you criticize Scientology for not making up their own word?

Yes. When you have a new concept for which there isn't a word, make up a new one. Don't re-purpose an existing word that means something else entirely.

 

[Krikkiter]

I communicate to newspapers and politicians more that most others and I have a blog.

Politicians just do what they think their constituents want. Newspapers just do what their readers want. Unfortunately, the constituents and readers are very non-clear, so I work towards making people more clear in a very tiny way.

Yeah but by doing that you're kinda saying "listen to me... I'm nuts." Why don't you leave the Scientology crap out of it. You know, up until I saw saw the highlighted words I almost had some respect for you.

 

[Justinian2]

Sounds to me like Freezone propaganda, but maybe I'm wrong. And even still, you feel the need to defend it to the bitter end "although it can be good..." Audited to release you from the addictive need for the church? Do you actually see what you just typed there? The church can fix the problem-that THEY created.

That's what I meant. Miscavige's church has/had problems.

The Freezone doesn't have the problem of cultish addiction. You fly in for a week, get some services and return home for a couple of months. The Freezone doesn't have the group addiction that a cult you are with 24-7 would have.

The Freezone is quite a bit less expensive, but they need to have larger classes. If I were a kid, I would do exactly what I did. I would go to first to the COS and then switch to the Freezone.

Yours is an example of propaganda. Freezone auditing is exactly the opposite. Freezone auditing frees a person from the effects of propaganda. In the Freezone you discuss the effects that life has had on you and decide on the best way they should have handled that problem or piece of propaganda.

 

[Krikkiter]

That's what I meant. Miscavige's church has/had problems.

The Freezone doesn't have the problem of cultish addiction. You fly in for a week, get some services and return home for a couple of months. The Freezone doesn't have the group addiction that a cult you are with 24-7 would have.

The Freezone is quite a bit less expensive, but they need to have larger classes. If I were a kid, I would do exactly what I did. I would go to first to the COS and then switch to the Freezone.

Yours is an example of propaganda. Freezone auditing is exactly the opposite. Freezone auditing frees a person from the effects of propaganda. In the Freezone you discuss the effects that life has had on you and decide on the best way they should have handled that problem or piece of propaganda.

Soooo.... much.... woo. Must... log... out...

 

[Justinian2]

Yeah but by doing that you're kinda saying "listen to me... I'm nuts." Why don't you leave the Scientology crap out of it. You know, up until I saw saw the highlighted words I almost had some respect for you.

Clear is a term that I'm using to mean more sane than normal. A lot of people have clear moments, especially at their job. James Holmes was thought to be sane before he exhibited his insanity. I'm trying to use a term that would exclude people that aren't sane even if society brands them as sane.

What does sanity mean to you?
What does insanity mean to you?
You would probably use alternate words. What are they?