General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[Dcdrac]

Getting emotional is not going to change the fact that no mass murder occurred at Belsen.

A mass murder clearly occurred and you are wilfully blind if you cannot see that.

What you seem to be missing is piles of bodies of people who did no wrong and got murdered by obsessed nutcases like you appear to be.

 

[Charles Traynor]

Charles Traynor, here is a picture of a British Army bulldozer moving the bodies of just some of the victims of the Nazis, at Belsen.

NSFW - Blocked for gruesomeness

[qimg]http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr157/antpogo/bergen_belsen_liberation_03.jpg[/qimg]

What model bulldozer is that?

The one that hasn’t got Straw Man's uncle or anyone else riding around on the outside of it.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Charles Traynor claims there was no room. There looks like plenty of room on the bulldozer to me, in the picture I posted above.

Next time you are in this country I will take you to one so you can see for yourself. The royal engineers have their museum down the road, and there are some as monuments around Medway too.

Ever seen one Charlie?

 

[Tomtomkent]

The one that hasn’t got Straw Man's uncle or anyone else riding around on the outside of it.

So because one was photod with nobody on it, no other dozer could ever take passengers?

 

[A'isha]

The one that hasn’t got Straw Man's uncle or anyone else riding around on the outside of it.

It's got plenty of room for someone to ride on it. What model of bulldozer is it?

And what's that that it's pushing, Charles Traynor?

 

[Straw Man]

The one that hasn’t got Straw Man's uncle or anyone else riding around on the outside of it.

Give it up, Charlie boy. Why don't you start answering some questions for a change?

 

[Dcdrac]

Mr Traynor I want to see your evidence for what happened at belsen as somehow not being murder

 

[000063]

The Infantry Combat Engineer course taken by those who will join the Infantry Pioneer platoons does not involve instruction in the use of heavy plant.

Present tense? We're talking about seventy years ago, Chuck.

And, as BR has pointed out, such training would not be needed if the soldier in question already knew how to operate said vehicle as a civvie.

Getting emotional is not going to change the fact that no mass murder occurred at Belsen.

How is that "emotional"? Because he said "mass murder"? So did you. You also tried to bring up the Brit's gunning down prisoners, but were unable to provide sources. I really think context would be helpful.

Did Straw even say his relative was DRIVING the dozer?

Why could he not have sat on, riden on, been a footplate rider, etc?

He did not, as I have already pointed out and Chuck ignored.

Then what, WAS the tragedy you described if not murder? Please supply, then prove, your counter theory.

An accident. A Nazi's pen slipped and, whoops, killed tens of thousands of people over the course of two years. Administrative error.

The one that hasn’t got Straw Man's uncle or anyone else riding around on the outside of it.

What, did Cat discontinue that model?

 

[FluffyPersian]

Where did I say it does?

That is the claim you originally made here. If the links above don't support that claim, why did you bother posting them?

As others have already said, people with fraudulent stories, including wannabe war veterans, often get the chance to speak publicly. It's unclear why this has anything to do with whether the Final Solution occurred.

 

[Cyrix686]

Golly yes, do not become emotional in any way at the sight of piles of naked people covered in filth being bulldozed into a huge trench.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Wrong! Official exterminationist doctrine is to not debate the holocaust with revisionists. Debs Lipstadt understands the hoax is faith based rather than fact based and it is a slippery slope to get involved with those who would scrutinize the mythology.

Deborah E Lipstadt:

Who appointed Lipstadt anything? Those are her views and not those of every person who studies the Holocaust. In fact, as you know full well, I and others have debated with deniers for years. I should have said making the attempt to debate, for as you recall it was the denier team that bowed out of our AR debate challenge.

Stop lying.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I see. Were any members of the team historians? What records did you look at? What physical evidence? Whose witness testimony?

You should read the "work product" which Mr Traynor has posted to date. The physical evidence, as has been noted, concerned parking lots and women and beer. And floods. Etc. It is actually nothing but a running gag.

 

[LemmyCaution]

She visits schools giving lectures which are filled with her hate filled lies. You might find a video or two of her engaed in this type of activity on YouTube?

Zisblatt estimates she has spoken to 6M children over the years.

We've already established that she's daft and unreliable - now you're quoting her as a reliable "witness"? LOL.

 

[LemmyCaution]

No he's not.

Now explain why you think that particular memoir is wrong. And apparently-random uncommented links to WorldCat are not an explanation.

Agreed. But if he were, so what? One of the things historians do is evaluate evidence . . . Mr Moore is floundering on this, as deniers always flounder when asked to look at and evaluate a large number of data points. They seem to be able to cherrypick, though.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Where did I say it does?

Well. You've been asked repeatedly to support your lies against members of this forum. You don't seem to find the time to do so. Yet you spam the usual denier BS about Zisblatt. Irony isn't your strong suit, is it Mr Traynor?

 

[LemmyCaution]

There are survivors so there was no "fiendish" plan.

No wonder denial is in such a parlous state.

This was bad even stacked against other arguments - like they were never there in the first place - we've been reading in this thread. Absolutely stunning illogic. Sort of admirable in its far-reaching silliness.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Suddenly, it's "Straw Man's uncle is the key to the whole holocaust!"

Well said. This is what they do. Anomaly hunt, quibble, cherrypick: all to ignore the actual evidence and how it all fits together.

 

[LemmyCaution]

The one that hasn’t got Straw Man's uncle or anyone else riding around on the outside of it.

LOL, so what? You will only believe what Straw Man related if he has a photo of each and every aspect of it? You do realize why you are making folks laugh at all this, don't you?

 

[Moss]

I find it interesting that Mr. Traynor tries to sell us "there was a plan for the extermination of the Jews" and "there are Jewish survivors" as mutually exclusive.
There are some problems with that.
Having a plan does not imply full success for one thing. Nor does it imply a uniform treatment of Jews. The Wannsee conference protocol actually does imply something else entirely, namely a granular approach based on perceived usefulness and perceived public backlash. (The latter indicates the perps were perfectly aware of what they did would be seen as a crime.)
That alone shows that Mr Traynor's either or approach is flawed.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I find it interesting that Mr. Traynor tries to sell us "there was a plan for the extermination of the Jews" and "there are Jewish survivors" as mutually exclusive.
There are some problems with that.
Having a plan does not imply full success for one thing. Nor does it imply a uniform treatment of Jews. The Wannsee conference protocol actually does imply something else entirely, namely a granular approach based on perceived usefulness and perceived public backlash. (The latter indicates the perps were perfectly aware of what they did would be seen as a crime.)
That alone shows that Mr Traynor's either or approach is flawed.

Well put. And we can add to that the fact that the intention was to have the extermination, with the characteristics you describe, take place over a large geographic expanse and unfold over time - and that the war didn't go exactly as planned, thus disrupting the intention and, in fact, as things developed, causing Himmler to more or less abandon the plan and try presenting himself to the Allies as an anti-Communist with whom they could do business.