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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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Back in the RODOH days we used to start threads about straight history and greatly enjoyed it when the deniers failed to join in or couldn't keep up. Seeing as how the remaining opposition is utterly hopeless, I'm thinking it might be time to revive such a practice, especially as the deniers seem hellbent on repeating themselves over and over.

Any requests or suggestions?
 
Charles Traynor said:
Yes, LemmyCaution, there are many strings to my bow, and I think I can say with some confidence that I am probably the only member of JREF who has led international teams on fieldtrips to Auschwitz-Birkenau in the quest for historical truth.
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Please link to the evidence you have made such trips.
 
000063 said:
Initially lacking sufficient manpower, the British allowed the Hungarians to remain in charge and only commandant Kramer was arrested. This had tragic results, as SS guards and Hungarians subsequently shot and killed some of the starving prisoners who were trying to get their hands on food supplies from the store houses.
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What were you saying about war crimes?
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Now go and look up where the British were later forced to open fire on the inmates with live rounds to stop the orgy of killing, rape and looting which broke out after they initially took control of the camp.
 
Charles Traynor said:
Here you go:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8474069&postcount=4726

"and was on a Bren carrier. If it has to be broken down to company/platoon,"

Company and platoon are Infantry sub units. Royal Engineers drive bulldozers.
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Also, the 8th Rifle Brigade is an infantry unit, which, um, shoulda been your first clue.

Are you for real? How many seats did the bulldozers used by the British at Belsen have?
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Look up "Tank desant". Or just play Halo.

I would like to point out that SM has, in effect, stated that his uncle was an infantryman. Let me quote the exact words about the D-4.

Being ordered to take your seat on a D-4, and move the empty husks of human beings into a large hole.
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http://olive-drab.com/idphoto/id_photos_d4cat.php
Wait, that's not some specialized machine. That's basically a farm tractor. Please provide evidence that only the Royal Engies could operate such a machine during WW2.

Oh, and nice job quote-mining out the part of my post that links to me proving you unequivocally wrong. I assume that you don't contest my assertion, then. And no, don't try the "it's irrelevant" dodge, since the accuracy of your claims is relevant, or the claims themselves were never relevant in the first place.
 
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Nick Terry said:
Back in the RODOH days we used to start threads about straight history and greatly enjoyed it when the deniers failed to join in or couldn't keep up. Seeing as how the remaining opposition is utterly hopeless, I'm thinking it might be time to revive such a practice, especially as the deniers seem hellbent on repeating themselves over and over.

Any requests or suggestions?
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Whether only the Royal Engies could operate a D4 vehicle.

Charles Traynor said:
Now go and look up where the British were later forced to open fire on the inmates with live rounds to stop the orgy of killing, rape and looting which broke out after they initially took control of the camp.
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No. Provide a source. Even if your claim was true, it means those brave SS boys were not doing very well at keeping order, were they?

It's interesting how you refuse to discuss the war crimes of the Nazis.
 
He cannot, as the main repository of the uncompleted Fishian Way, Rodoh forum was destroyed.

I'm quite sure he's been there though Nessie, it's what he does when he's actually there in the way of research that I would wish to question. He may have picked up bricks from the crematoriums for all I know.

"Wait til you see my report!"
 
22 and counting, ct. That's fully a third of your tenure here.
 
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tsig said:
Yep an officer that tried to get a soldier to work out of classification would have the Union Steward all over him.
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I see. So that would indicate that SM's uncle desanted on a D4 to move bodies in cooperation with the RE driving it.

In retrospect, the fact that he was told to "take his seat" as opposed to "take the seat" or simply to "drive" the D4 indicates that there were multiple seats, which would not be the case if only the driver was using the vehicle.

Mr. Traynor and Mr. Moore, anything else you'd like to nitpick and not-address?
 
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Charles Traynor said:
Here you go:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8474069&postcount=4726

"and was on a Bren carrier. If it has to be broken down to company/platoon,"

Company and platoon are Infantry sub units. Royal Engineers drive bulldozers.
Are you for real? How many seats did the bulldozers used by the British at Belsen have?
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Never seen anybody riding the toe-board before? Or "hot seating" a bonnet?

By the way... The Royal Engineers still follow standard force organisation terms just like any other regiment with specialised units. Comapy and Platoon is how other regiments might think of them.

http://www.armedforces.co.uk/army/listings/l0059.html
 
ANTPogo said:
You are aware that soldiers rode (and still ride) on the outside of tanks, bulldozers, and other tracked vehicles all the time, right?
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I am well aware soldiers ride around on the outside of tanks and other large fighting vehicles. But I have never seen anyone riding on the outside of a tiny bulldozer designed only for one operator.

Point me to pictures of soldiers riding around on the outside of those small bulldozers used at Belsen.
 
Mr traynor maybe you do some research yourself???

like read actual Historical documents and not rely on the on the internet
 
Charles Traynor said:
Straw Mans uncle also seems to be a Jack of all trades. One minute he is an Infantryman riding around in a Bren Carrier and the next he has donned a Royal Engineers beret and is using heavy plant to bulldoze corpses into a mass grave.

I think Irene Zisblatt would call this story chutzpah for the cause.
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Did I make any claim that he magically changed units?

Why are you desperately clutching at straws trying do make an account false?

Suddenly, it's "Straw Man's uncle is the key to the whole holocaust!"

Do you think that just because he wasn't in the Engineers that driving a bulldozer is impossible? What do you think the army was? I'm sure that thousands of accounts of soldiers working in co-operation with different regiments doing things that weren't their normal duties.

Not Charles Traynor. Things like that never happen. Just like the holocaust.
 
000063 said:
Also, the 8th Rifle Brigade is an infantry unit, which, um, shoulda been your first clue.

Look up "Tank desant". Or just play Halo.

I would like to point out that SM has, in effect, stated that his uncle was an infantryman.
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Good. You now concede that I was accurate in assuming SM's uncle was an Infantryman and that he rode around in a Bren carrier.

You will now provide me with a citation proving that the D-4 was the actual buldozer model used by the British at Belsen.
 
It is an absolute irrelevance what bulldozer was used, the fact remains the British Army had to use Bulldozers to bury the thousands of innocents the Nazis murdered at Belsen.
 
Tomtomkent said:
Never seen anybody riding the toe-board before? Or "hot seating" a bonnet?

By the way... The Royal Engineers still follow standard force organisation terms just like any other regiment with specialised units. Comapy and Platoon is how other regiments might think of them.

http://www.armedforces.co.uk/army/listings/l0059.html
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So, basically, our resident deniers are wrong in just about every possible aspect.

Charles Traynor said:
I am well aware soldiers ride around on the outside of tanks and other large fighting vehicles. But I have never seen anyone riding on the outside of a tiny bulldozer designed only for one operator.

Point me to pictures of soldiers riding around on the outside of those small bulldozers used at Belsen.
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Goalpost move; we are discussing witness testimony of someone who seems to be saying they rode on a D4, your personal incredulity notwithstanding. If you don't get a picture, does that necessarily mean it didn't happen?

There are any number of explanations for the discrepancy. Maybe it was a RE unit. Maybe they were towing something that had room for passengers. Maybe SM or his uncle remembered the model wrong. None of which is conclusive evidence of a lie, as you implied (but did not say).
 
Charles Traynor said:
She visits schools giving lectures which are filled with her hate filled lies. You might find a video or two of her engaed in this type of activity on YouTube?

Zisblatt estimates she has spoken to 6M children over the years. :eek:
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So, you have no evidence that what she is saying qualifies as "hate speech?". What does she lecture on? Does she incite hatred against an identifiable group?

Specific examples, dates and times would be relevant if you were to say present evidence of a crime to the authorities for prosecution.

And as for Strawman's uncle there is a very simple explanation why he was in an infantry role at one moment and working a bulldozer the next. In the British Army (and Commonwealth as well). There is a sub-trade in the infantry branch called the "pioneer". These are the lads called on to construct field fortifications and do some tasks usually given over to the Engineers. During peace time parades you can recognize the by their beards, aprons and axes. Also, the military is quite prepared to let people with skill sets from civilian life use those sets in operations.
 
You want evidenc that the D4, the standard model of dozer used throughout the British Army, was the SPECIFIC model used? Is there any reason to assume they would use any other model?

And by the way, have you ever sat on a D4, or in the bench seat? They are fairly common, I can even tell you where a former Army D4 is retired as a monument in a business park. The bench is fairly roomy, and two people can squease in.

Do you also assume that the Royal Engineers are the ONLY unit that might have requisitioned D4s?
 
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