General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[TSR]

i took him at his word. Because science and truth were being burned at the stake. After all.

ftfy

 

[Cyrix686]

I do not know if the receptionist was a blond floozy, she probably was not.

 

[LemmyCaution]

ftfy

Thank you. I knew something was missing, it just didn't sound right.

 

[Border Reiver]

Alright, I'm coming clean.

At post #3460 I asked for the proof that Mrs Zisblatt was a liar as I could not find anything other than denier websites calling her that in my Google search and somehow based on the denier's inability to provide sources for their stories or actually be able to prove anything. I did however ask for evidence of this alleged hate speech or child molestation Mr Traynor accused her of - still waiting.

2 posts later TSR thoughtfully gave me the link to the Neander analysis of her story. I read it.

At post #3464 or thereabouts, I posted that the evidence would lead a reasonable person to conclude that her story is fabricated. noted that the evidence was not generated by a denier.

Still waiting for the alleged hate speech evidence. Guess that will come at the same time the events in the movie "Iron Sky" come to pass.

 

[Robrob]

Of some millions of people having survived WWII, that some few might fabricate part of their past isn't all that surprising. Every year you read about some dufus getting caught pretending to be a Vietnam Medal of Honor Winner. Does that mean no one ever won a Medal of Honor in Vietnam?

 

[Straw Man]

Alright, I’ll play along with this.

What part of the British army was your uncle a member of? Please be specific.

What Waffen SS units were they in combat with just prior to the liberation of the camp?

I’m sure you will agree these are very simple questions you should be able to answer, I look forward to your speedy reply.

Sorry I couldn't deliver you a speedy reply - enjoying real life that a Saturday brings.

Quite happy to answer your questions. My uncle was 8th Rifle Brigade, and was on a Bren carrier. If it has to be broken down to company/platoon, Unfortunately I do not have that information to hand.

I'll also be honest with you - he never mentioned what Waffen SS units he was up against, just that the opposition that they came across were Waffen SS, and they never gave up the fight easily. I'm sure the specifics are available somewhere, but I'm going off a first hand account where specifics weren't mentioned. I have emailed one of my cousins, just in case he can supply more information. I know that he'd came across Waffen SS troops before, and they were never big on surrendering.

I'll even go a bit further. I'm sure if there is anyone here that spent some time in Brüggen would have come across one of the civvy drivers, a man called Karl. Always happy to tell what he did for the Reich, albeit with a panzerfaust that didn't work. One of the many with a story.....

There were others too. As I mentioned, I was lucky enough to get in with the old boys and join in their celebrations for dear old Adolph's centenary. I'm sure you know that in Germany these things are very much frowned upon, but they did happen. As I said, they remembered the dear old Fuhrer as a man who did so much for their country, but they had problems when it came to their treatment of the Jews. Here's the thing, Mr Traynor, none of them ever denied the Holocaust.

It's nice that you've singled me out for special treatment, but I really don't know where you are trying to go here. It seems you turn up when one of our deniers runs into a bit of trouble where he can't get out of. My story is not in any way unique. I'm sure that a number of members can bring a whole lot worse. My tale is simply based on speaking to people who were involved, from both sides during WWII. Information for me to understand both sides. In fact, Mr Traynor, I do quite well in a game of six degrees of separation. I've met and talked with at length people who met and interacted with Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels, Hess, to name but a few. I've also met with those who ended up on the wrong side of the wire, just because of their religion.

All I wanted to get across to Clayton is that there are people that have spoken to both sides, and have learned about what really happened. It's not like you Jew hating deniers revisionists will pay it much heed, but it will strike a chord with others who have listened to the truth.

I don't have any smoking gun that would make your arguments invalid, albeit they are. I've heard testimony and looked at the evidence. If I was on a jury, you would be wrong. All I have is the information I was given first hand.

I would have thought you would have loved the info that Allied troops that came across W-SS were singling them out for an extra amount of nastiness.

If I may, I would like to ask you the following questions:

Why do you turn up when certain posters run into the real world?

Why do you think that the general thread on Holocaust Deniers is not as good as a multitude of threads picking over bones?

Why do the Jew haters deniers try and dodge questions?

Please provide evidence that shows the Holocaust is a hoax. Please also provide documentation.

Where did all of the Jews go to?

Please show evidence of care and well being of all Jews that were displaced between 1935-1944.

Please show evidence that the NSDAP did not promote the idea that the Jewish population were regarded as "Der Untermensch" and had the ability to support their arguments.

Please provide details of those who made complaints against the German Government about the general treatment of the Jews, and the penalties (if any) imposed on them.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Many readers of this thread will have heard of Bradley Smith, head of CODOH, the Orwellian-named Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust, which routinely censors opposing views on its forum. B.S. is now well into his 80s, and has fought off cancer in recent years; it now transpires that the cancer is back, and that he also had a mild stroke recently.

Thanks for that. I now wonder if "David" the holocaust denier on the Skeptic Society forum, was somehow connected to Bradley Smith's group. He went off air at roughly the same times.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Moin moin, this Saturday I have decided to take stock of my activities during the short time I have been posting JREF.

A few weeks ago the first topic I covered was Steven Spielberg’s misinformation film The Last Days and the blatant lies told by the “survivors” starring in it.

I hadn’t really researched this topic well enough and was relying on memory alone to get me through. It came as no real surprise then that I eventually took a hit from exterminationists for claiming Spielberg had directed another film, The Liberators, when he had not (he was one of the producers). However, during the course of the discussion I was shocked by the degree of wilful ignorance surrounding Spielberg’s propaganda activities by the JREF exterminationist community.

The subject of, Irene Zisblatt, the diamond girl of Auschwitz, also came up at this time, and although I already understood JREF members are not critical thinkers by any stretch of the imagination, I was shocked by the degree of their conformist mindset and reluctance to explore new holocaust knowledge.

Despite the fact Zisblatt had been previously exposed as a liar and several links were left to reputable Websites debunking here ridiculous claims, JREF exterminationists continued to defend her unconditionally. Solidarity in her defence only collapsed when one renegade Believer, LemmyCaution, had the integrity to admit Zisblatt was full of BS.

http://www.holocaustdenier.com/questions-for-holohoax-promoters/

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.de/2010/01/irene-zisblatt-diamond-girl-fact-or.html

I can understand why zealots like TSR, Belz... and Cyrix686 would choose to defend Zisblatt to the bitter end. They know the only evidence exterminationists have for the homicidal gas chambers comes from the testimonies of eyewitnesses like Zisblatt. To admit “survivors” have lied about one part of their story is the beginning of a slippery slope to eventually admitting they could also have lied about the gas chambers.

Other JREF members like Border Reiver, 000063, Robrob and ANTPogo who also supported Zisblatt revealed their almost adolescent gullibility and excitability whilst directing a torrent of mindless insults at me. Shame on you!

Last weekend I also found myself under attack for asking some simple questions about the liberation of Auschwitz. Until I logged in on Saturday afternoon exterminationists like ANTPogo had been merrily posting links to pictures of corpses who had supposedly been killed by the Germans just prior to the the so-called liberation of the camp. When I asked for links to still photography or movie footage of the alleged homicidal gas chambers taken at this time, the mood suddenly changed, and without the need of an order to do so, the usual exterminationist reflex tactic of mobbing anyone with challenging questions came into immediate effect.

What became apparent very early on in this discussion was that the majority of exterminationists here have never seen the Soviet liberation footage of Auschwitz and were very quickly reduced to relying on a Hofnarren like TSR for guidance.

The very fact that JREF exterminationists chose to engage in shenanigans over that liberation topic rather than discussing it in an honest and forthright manner will have given the attentive reader some very big clues regarding the integrity of those who defend the holocaust lie here at JREF. The regular labelling of holocaust revisionists as anti-Semites is another questionable tactic and a means of attempting to silence those who question the official version of WWII history. Have you people no shame?

Regardless of the challenges and frustrations facing any honest fellow posting at JREF, I will continue to do so in an attempt to expose the hatemongering and underhand tactics currently being employed here to drown out the historical truth regarding WWII. If my efforts save just one casual Internet surfer from being seduced by the vile holocaust lie then all my work here will have been well worth it.

Once the Gas Chamber fabrication is determined impossible the Holocaust becomes a detention of people thought to be enemies of Germany.

No Gas Chambers means the elimination of 3 million Jewish people didn't happen. And that those 3 million people, who allegedly arrived at the camps and were allegedly killed without any type of registration, never arrived at the camps.

What will the learned Holocaust historians do when 3 million Jewish people have to be culled from these lists?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust#Victims_and_death_toll
http://www.jewishgen.org/ForgottenCamps/General/victimsEngl.html
http://history1900s.about.com/library/holocaust/bldied.htm

I've asked why the country totals are so skewed between the three lists but I never got a coherent reply.




The Holocaust huggers never discuss Gas Chamber procedure cycle in depth.

 

[TSR]

Once the Gas Chamber fabrication is determined impossible the Holocaust becomes a detention of people thought to be enemies of Germany.

... and the rounding up of entire villages to shoot them en masse, and amking others into slaves and working them to death, and performing vile medical experiments on them, and depriving them of their own property, and laws which made it both impossible to live in and impossible to leave the Reich ...


Even if the million or so who died in various gas chambers, didn't, that would still leave several million suffering other fates up to and including death at the hands of your heroes.


But I note that once again, you choose to run away from offering and supporting any alternative narrative of what happened to those millions, instead pretending (apparently) that nothing much at all did, beyond being "detained" -- why, exactly?

This is what makes you a denier.

I've asked why the country totals are so skewed between the three lists but I never got a coherent reply.

No, you got a coherent reply.

Then moved the goalposts.

Then ignored the reply you got to that.

But then, ignorance is pretty much all you bring to the table...

The Holocaust huggers never discuss Gas Chamber procedure cycle in depth.

See? This statement is demonstrably wrong. Just because *you* prefer to pretend that books do not exist, does not change the fact that they do.

For example, here is a list of books you did not even know existed, let alone have read on the topic:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/dachau/dachau.biblio

Do let us know what you have managed to mouth your way through, say, a dozen of these and can offer more than personal incredulity and willful ignorance to discuss them...

 

[Dcdrac]

Mr Moore try reading some books I would recommend anything by Ian Kershaw, professor Kershaw to be precise, Oh I forgot he is merely an expert.....

 

[Belz...]

Once the Gas Chamber fabrication is determined impossible the Holocaust becomes a detention of people thought to be enemies of Germany.

Can I safely believe that you only saw "gas chambers" in the post, stopped reading scanning there and made your own post ?

No Gas Chambers means the elimination of 3 million Jewish people didn't happen.

1) Non sequitur.
2) The consensus among historians is that the gas chambers existed. It is therefore your burden of proof, having made the positive claim that they are wrong, to show that they are.
3) If I blow up my car, it doesn't mean I never drove anywhere.
4) In order for the holocaust to be a hoax, there has to be a motive and a means through which otherwise honest historians could be convinced to participate. Please provide motive, means and evidence for this to be so.

I am eagerly awaiting your no doubt forthcoming response.

 

[Dcdrac]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18924842

Janina Dawidowicz was a nine-year-old girl when World War II engulfed Poland. As Jews, she and her family were soon driven into the Warsaw Ghetto, but she later escaped and remains one of its few survivors.

The extermination of the Jews of Poland began 70 years ago.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Once the Gas Chamber fabrication is determined impossible the Holocaust becomes a detention of people thought to be enemies of Germany.

Which people, depending on your mood and Dogzilla's, may or may not have existed.

And why were these existent or non-existent, as the case may be, people considered "enemies of Germany"? And what happened to them in detention and afterwards? With numbers and sources, please.

The Holocaust huggers never discuss Gas Chamber procedure cycle in depth.

Liar. I will link to just one such "brief" discussion, on pp 276-516 of this publication, which appears in Nick Terry's signature, as a link: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2011/12/belzec-sobibor-treblinka-holocaust.html#more (PDF here: http://archive.org/details/BelzecSobiborTreblinka.HolocaustDenialAndOperationReinhard.ACritique.)

 

[LemmyCaution]

Mr. Traynor is just following the good traditions of Robert Ley. Maybe he can even borrow Ley's nickname.

Robert Ley explained the Jewish policies of the National Socialists in this way,

Comrades, believe me. I am not painting too grim a picture. It is bitter for me, bitterly serious. The Jew is the great danger to humanity. If we don't succeed in exterminating him, then we will lose the war. It is not enough to take him someplace. That would be as if one wanted to lock up a louse somewhere in a cage. It would find a way out, and again it would come out from underneath and make you itch again. You have to annihilate them, you have to exterminate . . .

http://books.google.com/books?id=T3...ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=snippet&q=ley radio&f=false

Ley also made statements like these

The war will end with the extermination of the Jewish race.

Der Angriff for 14 June 1942

And in Das Reich, 6 June that same year, he had already declared that because of their supposed role in the world war:

The Jews will pay with the extermination of their race in Europe.

Ley later explained (2 June 1943):

Judah, Capitalists and Bolsheviks, listen, we want Judah to be exterminated, and Judah will be so. . . . That we know, we swear that we will not abandon the struggle until the last Jew in Europe is exterminated from the face of Europe.

These three statements are quoted in D. Bankier, "The Use of Antisemitism in Nazi Wartime Propaganda," in The Holocaust and History: The Known, the Unknown, the Disputed, and the Reexamined, pp. 45-46.

For men like Ley it would be incomprehensible to let the Jews live - channeling his Fuhrer on these occasions, Ley explained that the Nazi intention (yes, intention, as in plan) was not detention of the Jews - according to Nazi logic detention of Jews would be as ineffective as caging a louse - but extermination, annihilation. You have to kill them off, effectively, was how Ley put it.

 

[LemmyCaution]

My story is not in any way unique.

It is pretty darned interesting, in fact. Thanks for posting it and handling with such aplomb the abuse for being forthright one seems to get from Mr Traynor's ilk.

You did get me thinking about my father in law's time in the Stalag - although, since the truth is always spelled correctly, I was tripped up, ahem, on that one.

Jagger Report, anyone?

 

[Nessie]

Nessie, you joined in with the chants of anti-Semite and all the other obscuration tactics involved in drowning out the truth concerning Zisblatt’s lies.

If the cap fits wear it. You are a liar!

You missed the other post I made in response to your claims, or now lies. You need to evidence your claims or they are lies. Please evidence me being wrong to describe someone as anti-semitic and doing anything to drown out Zisblatt's lies.

 

[Dcdrac]

Mr traynor like all denial delusionists you have been shown to be at best a fantastist at worst someone who represents lies as truth.

 

[Clayton Moore]

And if the threat is, y'know, death? You are aware that the kid who gets beat up by a bully on Monday can be beaten up just as easily on Tuesday?

And if the bully, the authorities, kills my wife and children threats of consequences become moot. As in all bets are off.

 

[Charles Traynor]

No, YOU need to use the search function, because YOU made the assertion that people here had defended Zisblatt, but posted absolutely no proof of this. It seems that you forget that whoever makes a positive claim has the burden of proof.

On this one, I get to play the denier.

It is reasonable enough to call for one making an assertion to back it up with some evidence. Exterminationists on the other hand shift the burden of proof whenever it suits them.

Guiseppe Furioso:

It is part of the Western tradition that in legal, scientific, and intellectual matters that those asserting something have the burden of proof, and those who disagree are not required to provide evidence. This tradition however has been turned on its head regarding the Holocaust since the “historical truth” of the Holocaust has been posited in advance. Furthermore, even to express doubts can result in criminal penalties in at least 11 so-called democratic countries and the ruining of lives and careers in numerous others.

[Emphasis mine]

Let us not forget what your fellow court historians in France wrote on the matter of the gas chamber hoax:

[...]It is not necessary to ask how technically such mass murder was possible. It was technically possible, seeing that it took place. That is the required point of departure of every historical inquiry on this subject. This truth it behooves us to remember in simple terms: there is not and there cannot be a debate about the existence of the gas chambers.

[Le Monde, February 21, 1979]

In other words we should put aside commonsense and unreservedly believe in the gas chambers simply because some crooked court historians say they existed. JREF exterminationists can bow their heads to arguments from authority if they want to. Holocaust revisionists are made of sterner stuff and will continue to ask awkward questions until such a time as the final nail has been well and truely driven into the holocaust coffin.

 

[Cyrix686]

This sterner stuff his friends are made up of and that Mr. Traynor discusses, now what exactly is that?