General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[Clayton Moore]

It is reasonable enough to call for one making an assertion to back it up with some evidence. Exterminationists on the other hand shift the burden of proof whenever it suits them.

Guiseppe Furioso:



Let us not forget what your fellow court historians in France wrote on the matter of the gas chamber hoax:




In other words we should put aside commonsense and unreservedly believe in the gas chambers simply because some crooked court historians say they existed. JREF exterminationists can bow their heads to arguments from authority if they want to. Holocaust revisionists are made of sterner stuff and will continue to ask awkward questions until such a time as the final nail has been well and truely driven into the holocaust coffin.

The SOP of Holocaust huggers is lying by omission.

It was oh so telling that so many, found to be fraudulent Holocaust testimonies/books,films, have been dismissed in this thread with a never saw it or never read it.

From Amazon

Night (Oprah's Book Club) [Elie Wiesel, Marion Wiesel] on Amazon.com. ... Night is Elie Wiesel's masterpiece, a candid, horrific, and deeply poignant autobiographical

The freaking Holocaust huggers let the spewing of lies continue.

 

[Moss]

The regular labelling of holocaust revisionists as anti-Semites is another questionable tactic and a means of attempting to silence those who question the official version of WWII history. Have you no shame?

Where have I labeled you an antisemite? I was referring to something entirely different.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Even if the million or so who died in various gas chambers, didn't, that would still leave several million suffering other fates up to and including death at the hands of your heroes.

Three million. So you're saying that 2 or so million didn't die in gas chambers?

I wonder where they went?

 

[Nick Terry]

It is reasonable enough to call for one making an assertion to back it up with some evidence. Exterminationists on the other hand shift the burden of proof whenever it suits them.

Guiseppe Furioso:
Let us not forget what your fellow court historians in France wrote on the matter of the gas chamber hoax:
In other words we should put aside commonsense and unreservedly believe in the gas chambers simply because some crooked court historians say they existed. JREF exterminationists can bow their heads to arguments from authority if they want to. Holocaust revisionists are made of sterner stuff and will continue to ask awkward questions until such a time as the final nail has been well and truely driven into the holocaust coffin.

You appear to be deeply confused over what was under discussion. You made an assertion claiming that members here had defended Zisblatt and provided no sources. You have been asked repeatedly to provide sources for this claim. None have been forthcoming. As in absolutely no proof was given, no evidence supplied, nothing.

Therefore, your claim that people here have defended Zisblatt has been rejected since you have not sustained it.

Not only have you failed to provide any proof, but others have actually checked the record of posts here and found 272 mentions of Zisblatt on JREF. One can easily see that 50 of those mentions come from Clayton Moore who is a denier, 19 from Dogzilla who is a denier, 17 from Saggy who is a denier,

You specifically alleged that Border Reiver, ANTPogo, 000063 and Robrob have 'defended' Zisblatt. You also claimed that TSR, Cyrix686 and Belz have done so.


Robrob doesn't even have any posts where Zisblatt's name was mentioned. Nor if we search for zisblat misspelled. So that's one outright lie from you.

000063 also never mentioned Zisblatt before your post accusing him of having defended her. So that's a second outright lie.

ANTPogo mentioned Zisblatt precisely once before your stupid post and it can be read here. The post appeared in the context of a discussion where Dogzilla was claiming that Joachim Neander 'defended' Zisblatt, a claim which was widely regarded as nonsense.

From a denier perspective, though, Dogzilla's reaction makes perfect sense. Clayton Moore's post above shows the same reaction.

The fact that Neander calls Zisblatt out on her fictions is overshadowed for them by the fact that Neander thinks she (and, worse, others!) are otherwise telling the truth about being Auschwitz survivors. Since, to deniers, the entire Holocaust story is a lie, Neander is still "defending a lie(r)".

There is no defense of Zisblatt in this post.

Cyrix686 mentioned Zisblatt six times before your post. And we find

1) sarcasm used because a denier wheeled out a cliche
2) boredom because a denier was still going on about it, and a reference to Joachim Neander's critique
3) More boredom and sarcasm because a denier had become a broken record
4) ridicule of a denier for thinking that the entire Holocaust revolves around Wiesel, Zisblatt and Spielberg
5) more sarcasm, recommending that all future books on the Holocaust contain at least three chapters on Zisblatt
6) more ridicule of deniers for failing to meet a 200 witness challenge and laughing at the denier obsession with Wiesel, Mueller and Zisblatt

So no defense here, either.

Belz... has written two posts in response to deniers droning on about Zisblatt. Both in response to you

1) "Blah blah blah. Demonstrate that the holocaust is a hoax before going on about how wrong it is to talk about it."
2) "Who the **** is Zisblatt, and how am I defending him/her/it, especially to the bitter end ?"

So Belz... doesn't even know who Zisblatt is and thus was not defending her.

TSR has made 20 posts where Zisblatt's name shows up, most in response to tedious deniers wittering on about her. The first was pure sarcasm. The second contained this point

So tell us, which historians have ever cited Zisblatt as historical source? In which schools has that book ever been taught as straight history?

which is not a defence of Zisblatt. If you think that TSR has 'defended' the integrity and validity of Zisblatt's memoir then please provide such a post.

Border Reiver first responded to the ritual denunciation of Zisblatt by requesting proof that she had lied. A perfectly skeptical stance to take that doesn't add up to defending her. Two hours later, after reading the link to Joachim Neander's critique, he wrote as follows:

Thanks for the link.

After reading it, it would definitely appear that Ms. Zisblatt has fabricated her story. Taht being said, it was not a denier, but rather a legitimate historian who did so, and through using a far more exhaustive measure than "Didn't happen."

It is also apparent that this does absolutely nothing to refute the historical reality of the holocaust and crushing weight of evidence that supports it. Just because someone falsely claims association with an event, doesn't invalidate the reality of the event.

Again, no defense here.

So that's seven false accusations from you, Mr Fish. Seven.

 

[TSR]

It is reasonable enough to call for one making an assertion to back it up with some evidence. Exterminationists on the other hand shift the burden of proof whenever it suits them.

You mean like claiming that people here have "defended" someone, and then telling them that they should look it up themselves?

Posts five and six since you started running away...

Guiseppe Furioso

A denier, who ignores (as you do) that the historicity of the Holocaust has not be "posited", it has been *proven*.

Since "revisionists" depart from the conclusion that the Holocaust did not happen, i.e., they deny its existence, they are often called "deniers". Rather than analyze historical events, facts, their causes and consequences, and their interactions with other events, they defend a conclusion, whether or not the facts support it.

Let us not forget what your fellow court historians in France wrote on the matter of the gas chamber hoax:

[...]It is not necessary to ask how technically such mass murder was possible. It was technically possible, seeing that it took place. That is the required point of departure of every historical inquiry on this subject. This truth it behooves us to remember in simple terms: there is not and there cannot be a debate about the existence of the gas chambers.

[Le Monde, February 21, 1979]

It is interesting that deniers never put this quotation into context (mostly because they have not read the *editorial* in question, nor bothered themselves with those niggly little details of how it came to be written. The part they don't tell you about is:

Everyone is free to interpret a phenomenon like the Hitlerite genocide according to his own philosophy. Everyone is free to compare it with other enterprises of murder committed earlier, at the same time, later. Everyone is free to offer such or such kind of explanations; everyone is free, to the limit, to imagine or to dream that these monstrous deeds did not take place.

That they would be *wrong* to do so has nothing at all to do with suppressing their views but is all about the complete failure to support those views without the distortion of that part of the evidence which they do not simply ignore.

In other words we should put aside commonsense and unreservedly believe in the gas chambers simply because some crooked court historians say they existed.

Nothing need be put aside, nor is it a matter of belief.

Denial *does* require mountains of evidence to be put aside, and accusations like "crooked court historians" or "defended to the hilt" to be asserted but never proven in its place.

Six posts from ct amply demonstrate this.

JREF exterminationists can bow their heads to arguments from authority if they want to. Holocaust revisionists are made of sterner stuff and will continue to ask awkward questions until such a time as the final nail has been well and truely driven into the holocaust coffin.

Of course, ct tries to suggest that accepting the mainstream view of history is a logical fallacy, playing fast and loose with the fact that is is only appeal to illegitimate authority which is fallacious.

But he does, once again, let the sheet slip and reveal the *real* goal of denial: not the truth regardless of the nature of that truth, but burying that truth no matter what the cost.

Why this should be so important to deniers is left as an exercise for the student.

Tick Tock, ct: where are those citations you lied about where I and others defended Zisblatt?

 

[TSR]

Three million. So you're saying that 2 or so million didn't die in gas chambers?

No, I am saying that you are wrong when you claim that all three million who died in the camps were gassed.

Who told you otherwise?

I wonder where they went?

No, you don't.

If you really did, you would have read up on the matter so as not to look so ignorant when you try to score your petty rhetorical points.

You continue to whine about "Holocaust huggers let the spewing of lies continuing" and yet we never, not once, ever see you condemn the lies of, say, Irving, Zundel or Rudolf.

Not to mention the lies posted *right here* by the likes of ct, dz and, well, *you*.

 

[TSR]

So that's seven false accusations from you, Mr Fish. Seven.

And yet, for all of his whinging about lies told by others, we can expect that cm simply ignore these lies since they are in the service of the "greater good" as cm fantasizes it to be.

Just like he "lies by omission" by refusing to denounce the far more objectively proven lies of his fellow Hitler huggers.

 

[Charles Traynor]

I am not a renegade because 1) there is no orthodox behavior from which to dissent, 2) I am far from the only person amongst the non-deniers saying Zisblatt's story is untrue (in fact, I only encountered Zisblatt via HD debates - and my statements about her are based on Joachim Neander's article), and 3) there is no accepted Zisblatt narrative that is part of the evidence for the Holocaust.

So, Mr Traynor, unless you can produce posts supporting your claims, you owe a number of forum members an apology.

Wrong! Official exterminationist doctrine is to not debate the holocaust with revisionists. Debs Lipstadt understands the hoax is faith based rather than fact based and it is a slippery slope to get involved with those who would scrutinize the mythology.

Deborah E Lipstadt:

Ultimately, our objective should be to create a society where denial of genocide is seen as so outrageous and so despicable that anyone who engages in it would be rendered a pariah.

 

[Nick Terry]

It was oh so telling that so many, found to be fraudulent Holocaust testimonies/books,films, have been dismissed in this thread with a never saw it or never read it.

I can't speak for others but when it comes to published Auschwitz memoirs and compilations of testimonies including Auschwitz memoirs, I have read the following:

1. Adelsberger, Lucie, Auschwitz: Ein Tatsachenbericht. Das Vermächtnis der Opfer für uns Juden und für alle Menschen. Berlin: Lettner-Verlag, 1956
2. Adler, H.G., Langbein, Hermann, Lingens-Reiner Ella (eds), Auschwitz - Zeugnisse und Berichte, Europäische Verlagsanstalt, Frankfurt/Main, 1962.
3. Albin, Kazimierz, Warrant of Arrest. Oswiecim: Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum, 1993 (Polish original 1989) – number 118
4. Amery, Jean, At the mind’s limit: contemplations by a survivor on Auschwitz and its realities. Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1980
5. Bacall-Zwirn, Alina and Jared Stark, No Common Place. The Holocaust Testimony of Alina Bacall-Zwirn. Lincoln: University of Nebraska Press, 1999
6. Badaev, Mikhail (ed.), Pamiat‘ khranit vsë. Smolenskaia oblast. Smolensk, 1995
7. Barsony-Verrall, Olga, Missing Pieces: My Life as a Child Survivor of the Holocaust. Calgary: University of Calgary Press, 2007
8. Baum, Bruno, Widerstand in Auschwitz. Bericht der internationalen antifaschistischen Lagerleitung. Berlin-Potsdam: VVN-Verlag, 1949
9. Berg, Pierre, Scheisshaus Luck: Surviving the Unspeakable in Auschwitz and Dora. New York: Amacom, 2008
10. Bergh, Siegfried van den, Der Kronprinz von Mandelstein. Ueberleben in Westerbork, Theresienstadt und Auschwitz. Frankfurt am Main: Fischer, 1996 – deported 28.9.44. rapid onward transit
11. Berler, Willy, Journey through Darkness: Monowitz, Auschwitz, Gross-Rosen, Buchenwald. London: Vallentine Mitchell, 2003
12. Bialot, Joseph, C’est en hiver que les jours rallongent, Paris, 2002
13. Bialowna, Irena, ‘Aus der Geschichte des Reviers im Frauenlager in Birkenau’, in: Hamburger Institut für Sozialforschung (ed), Die Auschwitz-Hefte: Texte der polnischen Zeitschrift ‘Przeglad Lekarski’ über historischen, psychologischen und medizinischen Aspekte des Lebens und Sterbens in Auschwitz. Hamburg, 1987, Bd. I, pp.173-184, original as ‘Z historii rewiru w Brzezince’, Przeglad Lekarskii 1979, H.1, pp.164-175
14. Bielecki, Jerzy, Wer ein Leben rettet... Die Geschichte einer Liebe in Auschwitz. Berlin: wjs, 2009
15. Birenbaum, Halina, Hope is the Last to Die. Oswiecim, 1994 (Polish original: 1971)
16. Bitton Jackson, Livia E., Elli. Coming of Age in the Holocaust. New York: Harper Collins, 1994 (original 1980)
17. Borowski, Tadeusz, This Way for the Gas, Ladies and Gentlemen. London: Penguin, 1976 (Polish original: 1946-8)
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32. Fritz, Mali, Essig gegen den Durst. 565 Tage in Auschwitz-Birkenau. Vienna: Verlag für Gesellschaftskritik, 1986 (original: 1958) – Vienna June 1943, 46333
33. Fromer, Rebecca Camhi, The Holocaust Odyssey of Daniel Bennahmias, Sonderkommando. Tuscaloosa: University of Alabama Press, 1993
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35. Gawalewicz, Adolf, Refleksje z poczekalni do gazu. Oswiecim: PMAB, 2009
36. Glas-Larsson, Margareta, I want to speak: the tragedy and banality of survival in Terezin and Auschwitz, Riverside, CA: Ariadne Press, 1991 (German original: 1981)
37. Golgevit, Eva, Ne pleurez pas, mes fils... Paris: Le Manuscrit, 2010
38. Greenman, Leon, An Englishman in Auschwitz. London: Vallentine Mitchell, 2001
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113. Rozanski, Zenon: Mützen ab , , ., Eine Reportage aus der Strafkompanie des KZ Auschwitz, Verlag »Das andere Deutschland«, Hannover, 1948
114. Rushton, Colin, Spectator in Hell. A British Soldier’s Story of Imprisonment in Auschwitz. Chichester: Sommersdale, 2007 (original: 1998)
115. Salus, Grete, Ein Engel war nicht dort. Ein Leben wider den Schatten von Auschwitz. Leipzig: Forum Verlag, 2005 (original: 1958)
116. Samuel, Jean, Il m’appelait Pikolo: un compagnon de Primo Levi raconte. Paris: Laffont, 2007
117. Schaffer, Paul, Le Soleil Voile. Paris: Editions des Ecrivains, 2002 – Kosel selectee, later Birkenau
118. Sevillias, Errikos, Athens-Auschwitz. Athens: Lycabettus Press, 1983
119. Shelley, Lore, Schreiberinnen des Todes. Lebenserinnerungen von Frauen, die in der Verwaltung des Vernichtungslagers Auschwitz arbeiten mussten. Bielefeld: AJZ Verlag, 1992
120. Sobolewicz, Tadeusz, Aus der Hölle zurück. Von der Willkür des Ueberlebens im Konzentrationslager. Frankfurt am Main: Fischer, 1999 (original 1993)
121. Sonnino, Piera, This Has Happened: An Italian Family in Auschwitz. London: Palgrave Macmillan, 2009
122. Spritzer, Jenny, Ich war Nr. 10291. Als Sekretärin in Auschwitz. Stäfa: Rothenhäusler Verlag, 1994 (original: 1946)
123. Steinberg, Paul, Speak you also: a survivor’s reckoning. London: Penguin, 2002 (French original 1996) – arr 10.10.43, sent to Monowitz, in chemists’ commando with levi
124. Stransky, Oldrich, Es gibt keine Gerechtigkeit auf Erden. Erinnerungen eines tschechischen Auschwitz-Ueberlebenden. Vienna: Böhlau, 2010 - Familienlager
125. Szczerbowski, Kazimierz, ‘Der erste Schreiber im “Revier\” von Auschwitz. Erinnerungen’ in: Hamburger Institut für Sozialforschung (ed), Die Auschwitz-Hefte: Texte der polnischen Zeitschrift ‘Przeglad Lekarski’ über historischen, psychologischen und medizinischen Aspekte des Lebens und Sterbens in Auschwitz. Hamburg, 1987, Bd. I, pp.155-8; original as ‘Wspomnienia pierszwego pisarza “rewiru” oswiecimskiego’, Przeglad Lekarski 1970, H. 1, pp.198-201
126. Szmaglewska, Seweryna, Smoke over Birkenau. Oswiecim, 2001
127. Szücs, Ladislaus, Zählappell. Als Arzt im Konzentrationslager. Frankfurt am Main: Fischer, 1995
128. Tedeschi, Giuliana, There is a Place on Earth. A Woman in Birkenau. London: Lime Tree, 1993 (Italian original: 1988)
129. Tichauer, Eva, I was number 20832 at Auschwitz. London: Vallentine Mitchell, 2000 (French original: 1988)
130. Tych, Feliks (ed), Kinder über den Holocaust. Frühe Zeugnisse 1944-1948. Interviewprotokolle der Zentralen Historischen Kommission in Polen. Berlin: Metropol, 2008
131. Vaisman, Sima, A Jewish Doctor in Auschwitz. The Testimony of Sima Vaisman. Hoboken: Melville House, 2005 (French original: 2002) – deported January 20, 1944
132. Wajsblatt, Jo and Gilles Lambert, Le temoin imprevu. Paris, 2001
133. Weiss, Reska, Journey through Hell. London: Vallentine Mitchell, 1961 – Riga
134. Wetzler, Alfred, Escape From Hell. The True Story of the Auschwitz Protocol. Oxford, 2007 (original: 1963)
135. Winter, Walter, Winter Time. Memoirs of a German Sinto who survived Auschwitz. Hatfield: University of Hertfordshire Press, 2004 (German original: 1999)
136. Wohl, Tibor, Arbeit macht tot. Eine Jugend in Auscchwitz. Frankfurt am Main: Fischer, 1990
137. Zydzi w walce 1939-1945, tom 3. Warsaw: Zydowski Instytut Historyczny, 2011
138. Zyskind, Sara, Stolen Years. Minneapolis: Lerner, 1981
139. Zywulska, Krystyna, I Survived Auschwitz. Oswiecim, 2004

There are two memoirs on that list which I don't find to be coherent, by Hahn and Wajsblatt.

I've also read the following published memoirs/testimonies which I haven't yet typed out neatly, and there are seven more memoirs on the way right now.

1. Pogonowski. Listy z Auschwitz
2. Oświęcimskie listy Henryka Serejskiego
3. Ja z krematorium Auschwitz. Rozmowa z Henrykiem Mandelbaumem
4. Vrba, I Escaped Auschwitz
5. Kulka, Escape from Auschwitz
6. Wellers, De Drancy a Auschwitz
7. Petrenko, Avant et après Auschwitz (liberator)
8. Levi, If This Is A Man
9. Ducci, Un Tallet a Auschwitz (2000)*
10. Nissim, Recordi della cassa dei morti (1946)*
11. Valech Capozzi, A 24029*
12. Venezia, Sonderkommando
13. Hoess, Commandant in Auschwitz
14. Poludniak, Sonder

Now you are very welcome to explain why all of these memoirs are supposedly wrong, but something tells me that you will not even try.

I must confess, Clayton, that I am unclear whether you can read German, French, Italian, Polish or Russian and would thus be in a position to comment in a scholarly fashion on some of the above titles. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to your linguistic skills?

 

[Moss]

Wrong! Official exterminationist doctrine is to not debate the holocaust with revisionists. Debs Lipstadt understands the hoax is faith based rather than fact based and it is a slippery slope to get involved with those who would scrutinize the mythology.

Deborah E Lipstadt:

The range and gravitas of that doctrine seems to be rather small. See for example Nick Terry here debating with you.
It rather seems that this claim as the claim that the number of six millions is somehow sacred is part of the Nazi Apologetics doctrine and not based on reality.

 

[Nick Terry]

The range and gravitas of that doctrine seems to be rather small. See for example Nick Terry here debating with you.

the small print is that deniers here virtually never actually even try to debate the history. If they did then this thread would be a lot more interesting.

 

[Clayton Moore]

I can't speak for others but when it comes to published Auschwitz memoirs and compilations of testimonies including Auschwitz memoirs, I have read the following:

1. Buergenthal, Thomas, A Lucky Child: A Memoir of Surviving Auschwitz as a Young Boy. London: Profile Books, 2009
   
   Now you are very welcome to explain why all of these memoirs are supposedly wrong, but something tells me that you will not even try.
   

1. 
   How about just one?
   
   http://www.worldcat.org/title/lucky...oung-boy/oclc/239235936?referer=di&ht=edition
   
   
   
   

   A lucky child : a memoir of surviving Auschwitz as a young boy
   Author: Thomas Buergenthal
   Publisher: New York : Little, Brown, 2009.
   Edition/Format: Book : Biography : English : 1st American edView all editions and formats
   Summary:
   Thomas Buergenthal, now a Judge in the International Court of Justice in The Hague, tells his astonishing experiences as a young boy in his memoir. Arriving at Auschwitz at age 10 after surviving two ghettos and a labor camp, he became separated first from his mother and then his father but managed by his wits and some remarkable strokes of luck to survive on his own. Almost two years after his liberation,

   
   That didn't take long did it?

 

[A'isha]

How about just one?

http://www.worldcat.org/title/lucky...oung-boy/oclc/239235936?referer=di&ht=edition





That didn't take long did it?

It has a WorldCat entry, therefore it's wrong?

That's certainly a...novel argument.

 

[TSR]

Wrong! Official exterminationist doctrine is to not debate the holocaust with revisionists.

Really? I don't seem to have gotten that memo, and the existence of this forum seems to suggest that once again you are lying.

Could you please link to where this doctrine is spelled out?

It would appear that *you* are the one avoiding debate, preferring instead to make bald assertions and then run away when they are shown to be false.

Which is pretty much the denier doctrine, demonstrated by pretty much every "debate" in which they have been so foolish as to engage.

Debs Lipstadt understands the hoax is faith based rather than fact based and it is a slippery slope to get involved with those who would scrutinize the mythology.

Ultimately, our objective should be to create a society where denial of genocide is seen as so outrageous and so despicable that anyone who engages in it would be rendered a pariah.

By what mental gymnastics do you get "don't debate" as opposed to "genocide is bad" from that?

Seven and counting...

 

[Moss]

How about just one?

http://www.worldcat.org/title/lucky...oung-boy/oclc/239235936?referer=di&ht=edition





That didn't take long did it?

What argument are you trying to make?

 

[Cyrix686]

From your detailed and exhaustive knowledge of procedures, please explain to the learned why it is wrong?

Then we'll go through all the others that are allegedly wrong and look at the corroborative facts of the matter like all good historians would do.

You can get insight into that mysterious process if you look at how Dr. Neander examined Irene Zisblatt claims and try out something similar.

Given the precious knowledge that 9 hours of Ugly voice Irrabod wheezing away has given you, it shouldn't be too hard a thing to accomplish.

One can learn everything about Jews and become oneself "Jew aware" through the University of Youtube. or "Jewtube," Mr. Moore.

Yes, I believe that is how some of these people made of the "sterner stuff" that Fish refers to think of this video sharing website.

 

[Charles Traynor]

He publicly stated that he had been sober on his last annual trip to the camp. And I think he was in a van, not an aeroplane.

You cheeky git, I did not travel to Poland in a van, and if you’d humped all the paraphernalia required by an independent holocaust investigator and documentary film maker around Birkenau all day long, in the searing heat of a Polish summer, you’d be wanting a few cold beers in the evening too.

 

[Nick Terry]

How about just one?

http://www.worldcat.org/title/lucky...oung-boy/oclc/239235936?referer=di&ht=edition

That didn't take long did it?

Firstly, my invite was for you to explain why all the memoirs listed were wrong. Cherrypicking one title out of 153 clearly doesn't meet that standard.

Secondly, quoting from a publisher's blurb doesn't demonstrate that a memoir is wrong. To do that, you would actually have to read the thing, and grasp the historical context, and explain to us what genuinely violates the historical record in Buergenthal's account.

That would require knowing things like the Nazis lowered what they considered to be working age in 1944, because of the labour shortage, allowing a small number of 10+ year olds to pretend to be older and thus slip through the system. In 1944, the Nazis explicitly stated the working age in occupied Belorussia to be 10. In the camps, it went down to 12-14 in the same year.

It would also require knowing that in some ghettos, the Nazis tolerated the survival of small groups of children for a variety of reasons depending on the locality, sometimes because the children were relatively well hidden, sometimes because the local Nazis were less bloodthirsty than others, sometimes because a compromise was made to spare family members of skilled workers but not unskilled workers, and so on.

Finally, it would help if you could explain to us the logic of your apparent claim where the survival of one person refutes the death of another. I've never had a coherent explanation from a denier why that follows logically at all.

 

[Cyrix686]

Perhaps it wasn't a small van, perhaps it was rather an East German trabby?

 

[Nick Terry]

1. Albin, Kazimierz, Warrant of Arrest. Oswiecim: Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum, 1993 (Polish original 1989) – number 118
2. Badaev, Mikhail (ed.), Pamiat‘ khranit vsë. Smolenskaia oblast. Smolensk, 1995
3. Bialowna, Irena, ‘Aus der Geschichte des Reviers im Frauenlager in Birkenau’, in: Hamburger Institut für Sozialforschung (ed), Die Auschwitz-Hefte: Texte der polnischen Zeitschrift ‘Przeglad Lekarski’ über historischen, psychologischen und medizinischen Aspekte des Lebens und Sterbens in Auschwitz. Hamburg, 1987, Bd. I, pp.173-184, original as ‘Z historii rewiru w Brzezince’, Przeglad Lekarskii 1979, H.1, pp.164-175
4. Bielecki, Jerzy, Wer ein Leben rettet... Die Geschichte einer Liebe in Auschwitz. Berlin: wjs, 2009
5. Borowski, Tadeusz, This Way for the Gas, Ladies and Gentlemen. London: Penguin, 1976 (Polish original: 1946-8)
6. Brasse, Wilhelm, Wilhelm Brasse: Fotograf 3444, Auschwitz 1940-1945. Berlin: Revolver, 2011
7. Delbo, Charlotte, Auschwitz and After. New Haven: Yale University Press, 1995
8. Demant, Ebbo, Auschwitz. Direkt von der Rampe weg, Kaduk, Erber, Klehr: Drei Täter geben zu Protokoll. Reinbeck: Rowohlt Verlag, 1985
9. Gawalewicz, Adolf, Refleksje z poczekalni do gazu. Oswiecim: PMAB, 2009
10. Halgas, Kazimierz, ‘Die Arbeit im “Revier” für sowjetische Kriegsgefangene in Auschwitz. Ein Bericht’, in: Hamburger Institut für Sozialforschung (ed), Die Auschwitz-Hefte: Texte der polnischen Zeitschrift ‘Przeglad Lekarski’ über historischen, psychologischen und medizinischen Aspekte des Lebens und Sterbens in Auschwitz. Hamburg, 1987, Bd. I, pp.167-172, original as ‘Z pracy w tzw. rewirach dla jencow radzieckich w Oswiecimiu i w Gross-Rosen’, Przeglad Lekarski 1980, H.1, pp.162-171
11. Halon, Edwaed, W cieniu Auschwitz. Oswiecim: PMAB, 2003
12. Hautval, Adelaide, Medezin gegen die Menschlichkeit. Die Weigerung einer nach Auschwitz deportierten Aerztin, an medizinischen Experimenten teilzunehmen. Berlin: Dietz, 2008 (French original: 2006)
13. Kielar, Wieslaw, Anus Mundi. Fünf Jahre Auschwitz. Frankfurt am Main: Fischer, 1982 (Polish original: 1972)
14. Kita, Mieczyslaw, Ja tam bylem. Wspomnienia Mieczyslawa Kity, bylego wieznia Auschwitz, Neuengamme, Gross-Rosen, Flossenbürg-Hersbruck i Dachau. Oswiecim: PMAB, 2009
15. Kolasinski, Bogdan, Jakim cudem jesczcze zyje? Oswiecim: PMAB, 2003
16. Komenda, Janina, ‘Frauen im Revier von Birkenau’, in: Hamburger Institut für Sozialforschung (ed), Die Auschwitz-Hefte: Texte der polnischen Zeitschrift ‘Przeglad Lekarski’ über historischen, psychologischen und medizinischen Aspekte des Lebens und Sterbens in Auschwitz. Hamburg, 1987, Bd. I, pp.185-197, original as ‘W rewirze Brzezinki’, Przeglad Lekarskii 1982, H.1-3, pp.194-205
17. Kossak, Zofia, Z otchlani. Oswiecim: PMAB, 2004 (original: 1947)
18. Kowalczyk, August, A Barbed Wire Refrain. Oswiecim: ABSM, 2001
19. Kowalski, Stanislaw, Niezapomniana przeszlosc. Häftling 4410 opowiada. Oswiecim: PMAB, 2001 (original: 1985)
20. Kret, Jozef, ‘Ein Tag in der Strafkompanie’, Hefte von Auschwitz, 1, 1959, pp.157-203
21. Langbein, Hermann, Die Stärkeren. Ein Bericht aus Auschwitz und anderen Konzentrationslagern. Cologne: Bund-Verlag, 1982 (original: 1949)
22. Lepkowski, Andrzej, Tak bylo... Birkenau-Buchenwald-Ohrdruf-Crawinkel-Leitmeritz. Oswiecim: PMAB, 2006
23. Lewinska, Pelagia, Vingt mois a Auschwitz. Paris: Nagel, 1945
24. Lingens, Ella, ‘Dr. Adelajada Hautval’, Przeglad Lekarski-Oswiecim 1, 1964, pp.119-121
25. Lingens-Reiner, Ella: Prisoners of Fear, London: Victor Gollancz Ltd., 1948
26. Lorska, Dorota, ‘Block 10 in Auschwitz’, in: Hamburger Institut für Sozialforschung (ed), Die Auschwitz-Hefte: Texte der polnischen Zeitschrift ‘Przeglad Lekarski’ über historischen, psychologischen und medizinischen Aspekte des Lebens und Sterbens in Auschwitz. Hamburg, 1987, Bd. I, pp.209-212, original as ‘Block X w Oswiecimiu’, Przeglad Lekarskii 1965, H.1, pp.99-104
27. Mercier, Antoine, Un train parmi tant d’autres. 17 juillet 1942. Memoires du convoi 6. Paris: le cherche midi, 2008
28. Mirchuk, Petro, In the German Mills of Death. New York: Vantage Press, 1976
29. Musiol, Jozef, Czlowiek zbrodnia. Oswiecim: PMAB, 1998
30. Piechowski, Kazimierz; Eugenia Bożena Kaczyńska; Michał Ziółkowski; Siegfried Schmidt, Ich war eine Nummer... Geschichten aus Auschwitz. Oswiecim: SMAB, 2008
31. Piekarski, Kon, Escaping Hell. The Story of a Polish Underground Officer in Auschwitz and Buchenwald. Toronto: Dundurn Press, 1989
32. Piekut-Warszawska, Elzbieta, ‘Kinder in Auschwitz. Erinnerungen einer Krankenschwester’, in: Hamburger Institut für Sozialforschung (ed), Die Auschwitz-Hefte: Texte der polnischen Zeitschrift ‘Przeglad Lekarski’ über historischen, psychologischen und medizinischen Aspekte des Lebens und Sterbens in Auschwitz. Hamburg, 1987, Bd. I, pp.227-229, original as ‘Dzieci w obozie oswiecimskim (Wspomnienia pielegniarki), Przeglad Lekarski, 1967, H.1, pp.204-5
33. Pogozhev, A.A and Sten’kin, P.A., Smert’ stoiala u nas za spinoi. Pobeg iz Osventsima. Ostat’sia v zhivykh, Moscow, 2005
34. Poliakov, Leon, Auschwitz. Paris: Juillard, 1964 (reprint: Gallimard, 2006)
35. Pozner, Vladimir, Descente aux enfers. Recits de deportes et de S.S. d’Auschwitz. Paris: Juillard, 1980
36. Projektgruppe Belarus im Jugendclub Courage Köln e.V. (ed), ‚Dann kam die deutsche Macht’. Weissrussische Kinderhäftlinge in deutschen Konzentrationslagern 1941-1945. Eine Dokumentation. Cologne, 1999
37. Rajewski, Ludwik, Oswiecim w systemie RSHA. Warsaw, 1946
38. Rosenberg, Otto, A Gypsy in Auschwitz. London: London House, 1999
39. Rozanski, Zenon: Mützen ab , , ., Eine Reportage aus der Strafkompanie des KZ Auschwitz, Verlag »Das andere Deutschland«, Hannover, 1948
40. Rushton, Colin, Spectator in Hell. A British Soldier’s Story of Imprisonment in Auschwitz. Chichester: Sommersdale, 2007 (original: 1998)
41. Sobolewicz, Tadeusz, Aus der Hölle zurück. Von der Willkür des Ueberlebens im Konzentrationslager. Frankfurt am Main: Fischer, 1999 (original 1993)
42. Szczerbowski, Kazimierz, ‘Der erste Schreiber im “Revier\” von Auschwitz. Erinnerungen’ in: Hamburger Institut für Sozialforschung (ed), Die Auschwitz-Hefte: Texte der polnischen Zeitschrift ‘Przeglad Lekarski’ über historischen, psychologischen und medizinischen Aspekte des Lebens und Sterbens in Auschwitz. Hamburg, 1987, Bd. I, pp.155-8; original as ‘Wspomnienia pierszwego pisarza “rewiru” oswiecimskiego’, Przeglad Lekarski 1970, H. 1, pp.198-201
43. Szmaglewska, Seweryna, Smoke over Birkenau. Oswiecim, 2001
44. Winter, Walter, Winter Time. Memoirs of a German Sinto who survived Auschwitz. Hatfield: University of Hertfordshire Press, 2004 (German original: 1999)
45. Zywulska, Krystyna, I Survived Auschwitz. Oswiecim, 2004

1. Pogonowski. Listy z Auschwitz
2. Oświęcimskie listy Henryka Serejskiego
3. Hoess, Commandant in Auschwitz

I'm especially looking forward to Clayton's explanation of why these non-Jewish inmates of Auschwitz-Birkenau - Poles, Russians, Belarusians, Ukrainians, French, Austrians and Roma - are all liars, and how come the SS witnesses are all liars. The above titles take up nearly 1/3 of the list originally posted.