Scientology abandoned by Hubbard's granddaughter & Miscavige's father

[Gord_in_Toronto]

MissCabbage didn't fool all the OT's. Before becoming an OT in the Freezone, I heard OTs mutter "I hate that man" as MissCabbage took to the podium to read his speeches to the Scientology world.

Many Scientologists spent considerable personal wealth (millions) to try to defeat MissCabbage only to fail when opposed by the Scientology wealth and slave labor which was available to MissCabbage.

The better half of Scientology has left the church.

But MissCabbage won. He kept the Church and all its accoutrements.

He must be smarter! Surely?

 

[gtm]

I have, and it is. One of the more interesting things she talks about (and something I had never considered) is how LRH and the CoS use language as a programing device. They have all these odd terms for everything and even the terms that are standard English words don't have standard meanings. If you marinate long enough in the vocabulary, you lose the ability to even conceptualize life beyond the church. Very clever and very sinister. It sounds like something an SP would come up with.

Yes, scientology jargon is fascinating isn't it?

If you lurk on a scientology related forum you'll finds that much of it is utterly incomprehensible to an outsider. Of course you're correct in saying that is the point. I also think it's designed to give some very silly & rather cranky ideas an veneer of intellectual weight. My guess is that Hubbard learned the power of jargon during his W11 service in the US Navy.

 

[Justinian2]

Well, i'm not so sure that the practices are not the problem. After all they involve a lot of brainwashing. For example all that fuzz with giving words a completely new meaning, which makes it close to impossible to have a sane conversation with people outside that cult.

Or how they are teaching a pretty insane way of communications in general, all according to Hubbards doctrine. To me it looks like they take people who just happen to have a slightly distroted view of reality, and then mess their heads up completely.

After all, i consider mental health as important as physical health.

Greetings,

Chris

A fundamental characteristic of the Scientology SP is that he won't learn. He isn't necessarily stupid. He doesn't necessarily have a learning defect. He isn't necessarily ignorant. Sometimes he just has an attitude problem. He thinks everything he believes is correct. He believes he doesn't have to learn. He believes others are idiots or brainwashed.

How would you differentiate between Scientology brainwashing and Government brainwashing? Government makes you believe that you need governing. Government makes you believe that the guy at the top deserves to be at the top. Government makes you believe that you ought to follow the guy at the top. Government says wall street is good. Government says outsourcing is good - but notice they don't outsource government.

The difference is in force. An idiot requires force in order to be followed.

The Freezone uses NO force. Freezone is unlike all cults in that a community isn't necessary. Freezone is unlike all cults in that a peer pressure isn't necessary. By these standards, Freezone Scientology is the only non-cult in the world.

 

[hgc]

A fundamental characteristic of the Scientology SP is that he won't learn. He isn't necessarily stupid. He doesn't necessarily have a learning defect. He isn't necessarily ignorant. Sometimes he just has an attitude problem. He thinks everything he believes is correct. He believes he doesn't have to learn. He believes others are idiots or brainwashed.

That's just a pleasing story you tell yourself to explain how people don't fall for Scientology. Your so-called SPs learn all the time. One of the easiest things to learn is that stupid cults are stupid. That's my attitude, and it's no problem at all.

Of course people believe that what they think is correct -- otherwise it wouldn't be belief, would it? I don't believe "others" are idiots or brainwashed. I believe Scientologists are brainwashed, and more than few of them just might be idiots.

 

[Justinian2]

[...]

How does freezone Scientology rank as a system of practice in comparison to Wicca, Hermeticism, mainstream Christianity, mystical Christianity, mainstream Islam, Sufiism, Shinto, yoga, TM, animism, spiritual environmentalism, military discipline, martial arts, Classical stoicism, Freudian psychotherapy, modern (pharamaceutical) psychiatry, Zen, Taoism, salesmanship systems, and especially, skepticism?

Is there a case for why a practicing pagan, priest, or skeptic would be better off with Scientology instead?

Respectfully,
Myriad

I have studied and participated in the underlined practices. I think some are sub worthless and others have some value. Nothing has compared qualitatively or quantitatively with what Scientology delivers. TM, Christianity, and Wicca have some value.

The Freezone is affordable for most. I have even seen Freezone auditors take boats, campers and cars in trade for services.

Scientology can be affordable for some. As an engineer in the 70s, I had only saved $4000 in four years. Then I moved in with some Scientologists, spent $12,000 (a years' pay for an engineer back then) on Scientology, and ended the year with $4000 in the bank. Scientologists don't spend their money on anything but Scientology. So even the CO$ is affordable for some. The Freezone costs a tenth as much.

I have no regrets about spending 1973 with Scientology and Scientologists. Scientology under LRH was fun.

 

[tsig]

I have studied and participated in the underlined practices. I think some are sub worthless and others have some value. Nothing has compared qualitatively or quantitatively with what Scientology delivers. TM, Christianity, and Wicca have some value.

The Freezone is affordable for most. I have even seen Freezone auditors take boats, campers and cars in trade for services.

Scientology can be affordable for some. As an engineer in the 70s, I had only saved $4000 in four years. Then I moved in with some Scientologists, spent $12,000 (a years' pay for an engineer back then) on Scientology, and ended the year with $4000 in the bank. Scientologists don't spend their money on anything but Scientology. So even the CO$ is affordable for some. The Freezone costs a tenth as much.

I have no regrets about spending 1973 with Scientology and Scientologists. Scientology under LRH was fun.

Where did LRH get his wisdom?

 

[Justinian2]

Where did LRH get his wisdom?

Probably the library. He loved older books and read everything.

However, when he wrote it was stream of consciousness. He could knock off a book in a week. He told people at Harvard that they had to write 100 pages a week. They groaned in disbelief. However, many authors have written that much.

Paraphrase: He said he was influenced by ideas from other worlds. However he also has said in lectures that all wisdom is influenced by learning. He maintains that a person would never learn much without relying on the wisdom of others and even gave a couple examples of how that would be so.

Sometimes I give an answer "maybe this or it could also be this other thing". If LRH seemed to give a couple of answers for a question, it was probably that he thought of a couple of possibilities and one may have even seemed humorous to himself at the time.

 

[hgc]

 

[Scopedog]

Yes, scientology jargon is fascinating isn't it?

If you lurk on a scientology related forum you'll finds that much of it is utterly incomprehensible to an outsider. Of course you're correct in saying that is the point. I also think it's designed to give some very silly & rather cranky ideas an veneer of intellectual weight. My guess is that Hubbard learned the power of jargon during his W11 service in the US Navy.

I think Scientology is a crock but I remember reading the intro to Dianetics as a child and I vaguely remember that whoever wrote the intro (probably L. Ron) encouraged the reader that a good habit of reading is to stop and look up words immediately if you don't understand them. This was in general, not just for Dianetics or Scientology. He also included a glossary of Scientology-specific terms that he encouraged the reader to refer to while reading Dianetics. I didn't finish the book because I thought it was stupid but ever since then (like 20 years ago) I have always followed the advice about immediately looking up words I don't understand while I'm reading.

 

[Chris L]

I think Scientology is a crock but I remember reading the intro to Dianetics as a child and I vaguely remember that whoever wrote the intro (probably L. Ron) encouraged the reader that a good habit of reading is to stop and look up words immediately if you don't understand them. This was in general, not just for Dianetics or Scientology. He also included a glossary of Scientology-specific terms that he encouraged the reader to refer to while reading Dianetics. I didn't finish the book because I thought it was stupid but ever since then (like 20 years ago) I have always followed the advice about immediately looking up words I don't understand while I'm reading.

Looking up words you don't understand is always a good idea. It's when people try to redefine them for you (the glossary you mentioned), that problems arise. Hubbard used the alternate vocabulary to reenforce the alternate reality he was creating for his followers.

 

[Chris L]

Probably the library. He loved older books and read everything.

And we know this how?.

However, when he wrote it was stream of consciousness. He could knock off a book in a week. He told people at Harvard that they had to write 100 pages a week. They groaned in disbelief. However, many authors have written that much.

I wasn't aware he taught at Harvard.

Paraphrase: He said he was influenced by ideas from other worlds. However he also has said in lectures that all wisdom is influenced by learning. He maintains that a person would never learn much without relying on the wisdom of others and even gave a couple examples of how that would be so.

Sometimes I give an answer "maybe this or it could also be this other thing". If LRH seemed to give a couple of answers for a question, it was probably that he thought of a couple of possibilities and one may have even seemed humorous to himself at the time.

And maybe he just made the whole thing up and the two answers are a product of him not remembering the first lie. That happens quite a bit with con men.

 

[Orphia Nay]

Just because a book weighs 7 pounds, or is almost 800 pages long, doesn't make it correct.

I'm not saying it's incorrect, either, I haven't read it so I wouldn't know. But you keep throwing those figures out there like the weight or number of pages is important.

Exactly. Justinian is committing the Appeal to Verbosity fallacy.

A fundamental characteristic of the Scientology SP is that he won't learn. He isn't necessarily stupid. He doesn't necessarily have a learning defect. He isn't necessarily ignorant. Sometimes he just has an attitude problem. He thinks everything he believes is correct. He believes he doesn't have to learn. He believes others are idiots or brainwashed.

How would you differentiate between Scientology brainwashing and Government brainwashing? Government makes you believe that you need governing. Government makes you believe that the guy at the top deserves to be at the top. Government makes you believe that you ought to follow the guy at the top. Government says wall street is good. Government says outsourcing is good - but notice they don't outsource government.

The difference is in force. An idiot requires force in order to be followed.

The Freezone uses NO force. Freezone is unlike all cults in that a community isn't necessary. Freezone is unlike all cults in that a peer pressure isn't necessary. By these standards, Freezone Scientology is the only non-cult in the world.

You've just proved that you've been forced into thinking that non-Freezoners are brainwashed.

The government does not brainwash people. Only conspiracy theorists believe that. You've willingly brainwashed yourself by buying into Hubbard's beliefs.

What benefits (monetary or otherwise) do you receive for praising him and Freezone here?

Your posts are riddled with begging the question that the government tells you what to think. This is false. The government is millions of individuals from all walks of life, and voting for different people. How can the government tell you what to think when, in the US at least, there are multiple parties who do not agree with anything each other say?

Your claims are ludicrous. You're repeating things you've been told to believe.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

It's easy to get men to have sex. Plus, Travolta is rich and famous. So why'd he have to harass anybody?

Not sure if serious...

 

[Justinian2]

deleted.

 

[GrandMasterFox]

Looking up words you don't understand is always a good idea. It's when people try to redefine them for you (the glossary you mentioned), that problems arise. Hubbard used the alternate vocabulary to reenforce the alternate reality he was creating for his followers.

Well he's not the only one. It's no different than the various new age woo-woo with quantum crap, or alternative medicine idiocies that try to measure your cellular level or whatever.

It amazes me how people don't put 2 and 2 together to identify that all these cons work exactly in the same way. Sure, they'll mock everyone else's woo, but their's is "special" and not the same.

 

[calebprime]

Not sure if serious...

Not serious.

 

[Justinian2]

I think Scientology is a crock but I remember reading the intro to Dianetics as a child and I vaguely remember that whoever wrote the intro (probably L. Ron) encouraged the reader that a good habit of reading is to stop and look up words immediately if you don't understand them. This was in general, not just for Dianetics or Scientology. He also included a glossary of Scientology-specific terms that he encouraged the reader to refer to while reading Dianetics. I didn't finish the book because I thought it was stupid but ever since then (like 20 years ago) I have always followed the advice about immediately looking up words I don't understand while I'm reading.

One of my children became a medical doctor by following LRH study advice since age six.

 

[Justinian2]

Looking up words you don't understand is always a good idea. It's when people try to redefine them for you (the glossary you mentioned), that problems arise. Hubbard used the alternate vocabulary to reenforce the alternate reality he was creating for his followers.

No. Hubbard created his own terms so that what he was saying wouldn't be confused by a reversion to previous meanings for the word. For example: I've used the word utopia to refer to a perfect society, but readers tend to smear the example of Sir Thomas More's 1516 book Utopia into the definition. (I think the society More described was dystopian.) When discussing the desire for a more (no pun) perfect society it is desirable to use 'utopia', but it confuses people.

The people that subscribe to the theory that Hubbard was trying to create a cult by his special words are wrong. If you want to hear cultish titles for things someday, go to a graduation and listen to the titles given to doctorial theses. Are they cultish?

 

[DrDave]

One of my children became a medical doctor by despite following LRH study advice since age six.

ftfy, if the claim is true at all

 

[Justinian2]

ftfy, if the claim is true at all

No, I was just saying that to deceive all of you disbelievers.

Why would I want to do that?

But then why would some of the disbelievers try to deceive? Is it because they know their 'instincts' are right and figure that lies that justify their intuition are OK?

Looking at your statement from the position of the disbelievers, it makes perfect sense. You must have at least thought of being deceptive.