Scientology abandoned by Hubbard's granddaughter & Miscavige's father

[Orphia Nay]

You're fighting a straw man, Justinian. The government doesn't teach us. People teach us.

You are free to learn for yourself. Right now, you're paying to be told what to think. Turn your anger towards Scientology/Freezone and really think.

 

[Justinian2]

a) Name some of these smart people.

b) How do you propose smart people gain power?

c) How is smart-people-protecting-you different from "government," other than that they are smart instead of idiots?

a) Smart people would know that they didn't know everything. They would know how to learn, they would constantly learn and they would know fact from fiction. Scientologists and universities try to endow people with these characteristics.

b) Smart people don't need power if people follow them because they have intelligent inspiration. Leaders lead, they don't force people to obey with their awesome government delegated power.

c) The point I was trying to make is that I don't want to be ruled by a government, I want only to be protected from foreign invasion and criminals. Protection gives me the freedom to govern myself. To hell with government, I want freedom. I want to govern myself.

The comment about wishing to be protected by the intelligent is a desire. The comment about being governed by idiots is an observation.

 

[Christian Klippel]

... they would constantly learn and they would know fact from fiction. Scientologists .... try to endow people with these characteristics.

Quite some contradiction right there.

 

[Justinian2]

How did MissCabbage manage to fool all those OT XX with the power over MEST so that he could take over the Church with scarcely a whimper from them? Is he cleared to OT XXI or sumtin'?

As PT Barnum may or may not have said, "There's a Fool born every minute".

MissCabbage didn't fool all the OT's. Before becoming an OT in the Freezone, I heard OTs mutter "I hate that man" as MissCabbage took to the podium to read his speeches to the Scientology world.

Many Scientologists spent considerable personal wealth (millions) to try to defeat MissCabbage only to fail when opposed by the Scientology wealth and slave labor which was available to MissCabbage.

The better half of Scientology has left the church.

 

[Justinian2]

You're fighting a straw man, Justinian. The government doesn't teach us. People teach us.

You are free to learn for yourself. Right now, you're paying to be told what to think. Turn your anger towards Scientology/Freezone and really think.

I choose to govern myself as much as possible. I only want a government that will protect me from others that would crush my rights to: life, ownership, consentual sex, a family, food, oxygen, water, housing, employment, a business, free thought, free speech, etc.

You'll note that government destroys those very rights that we need protected.

 

[Justinian2]

Quite some contradiction right there.

Universities owe part of their success to the fact they are selective. Good students learn more when the slow learners are removed from their group. Scientology attempts to uplift all that want to learn.

I said the attempt of Scientology was to teach everyone to recognize the difference between truth and fiction. I didn't say they were entirely successful. However, I think Scientology has succeeded in the Freezone.

 

[Christian Klippel]

I said the attempt of Scientology was to teach everyone to recognize the difference between truth and fiction. I didn't say they were entirely successful. However, I think Scientology has succeeded in the Freezone.

Yes. And i said that this is quite an contradiction. See, if they were successful in teaching "everyone to recognize the difference between truth and fiction", they would have exactly zero members by now. No matter if you call that Scientology of Freezone.

Face it, it's based on a trash science-fiction writing, that was so lousy that it didn't even make it to a silly b-movie. The founder openly stated that inventing a religion is the way to make a lot of money. The simple fact that both still have members who take any of that crap serious shows that, to become or stay a member of that cult, one must have extreme deficiencies in his/her mental capacity. No matter if you called it Scientology or Freezone.

And that is simply the exact opposite of "teach everyone to recognize the difference between truth and fiction". It is, instead, "keeping people as stupid as possible, even dumb them down several notches, while grabbing as much of their money as possible". Things like people willing to pay money to get hooked up to a lousy, crappy designed ohmmeter confirms that.

The only "gain" in either of them is for the bozos who cash in the money from the gullible.

 

[Justinian2]

Yes. And i said that this is quite an contradiction. See, if they were successful in teaching "everyone to recognize the difference between truth and fiction", they would have exactly zero members by now. No matter if you call that Scientology of Freezone.

Face it, it's based on a trash science-fiction writing, that was so lousy that it didn't even make it to a silly b-movie. The founder openly stated that inventing a religion is the way to make a lot of money. The simple fact that both still have members who take any of that crap serious shows that, to become or stay a member of that cult, one must have extreme deficiencies in his/her mental capacity. No matter if you called it Scientology or Freezone.

And that is simply the exact opposite of "teach everyone to recognize the difference between truth and fiction". It is, instead, "keeping people as stupid as possible, even dumb them down several notches, while grabbing as much of their money as possible". Things like people willing to pay money to get hooked up to a lousy, crappy designed ohmmeter confirms that.

The only "gain" in either of them is for the bozos who cash in the money from the gullible.

The truth is that what you have said is a joke, was intended as a joke, and is known to be a joke. What you have said is fiction.

The truth is in "The Scientology Handbook". None of what you say is in a seven pound, 871 page volume known as "The Scientology Handbook". MisCavage isn't all bad if he promotes The Scientology Handbook.

 

[tsig]

Scientology is more like chess. There's a book called "Chess Rules of Thumb" that contains hundreds of rules of thumb for chess. None are 100% always right, but they statistically steer your play in the right direction.

Government is always wrong.

Here's the definition of government:




I say government is ALWAYS WRONG because I don't want to be governed by idiots, I want to be protected by smart people.

Why do you need that protection?

 

[Justinian2]

The truth is that the book "The Scientology Handbook" is a synopsis of Scientology and is a synopsis of their bible.

The second truth is that Scientology is more expensive than the Freezone.

A third truth is that the Scientology sales techniques are like time share sales presentations. The Freezone doesn't sell. The Freezone just says "This is your next step. It will cost $x dollars.

 

[Justinian2]

Why do you need that protection?

Without protection from criminals and invading armies, we wouldn't last long. Our assets wouldn't last long. Heck, the Aztecs even ate people. The Aztecs may have eaten millions of people. History has shown us that there will be wars and criminals.

 

[gtm]

Nobody knows for certain how David Miscaviage became dictator and chief profiteer of Scientology. It happened right after the government threw Hubbard's wife in jail for spying on the FBI to learn about the FBI's plans to infiltrate Scientology.

Who knows, the Freezone may be the legitimate heir to Scientology.

It's pretty well documented.

See Janet Reitmans book 'Inside Scientology' - needless to say it's a pretty convoluted story.

 

[Christian Klippel]

The truth is that what you have said is a joke, was intended as a joke, and is known to be a joke. What you have said is fiction.

The truth is in "The Scientology Handbook". None of what you say is in a seven pound, 871 page volume known as "The Scientology Handbook". MisCavage isn't all bad if he promotes The Scientology Handbook.

Keep thinking that. Truth is that even Hubbard himself described the Scientology teachings as "space opera". You may also want to read this WP article about "Revolt in the stars".

The undeniable fact is that Hubbard was nothing more than a failed author of really bad SciFi. Publishers and filmmakers had at least some sense of reality to see that his work is just crap. However, he then found people who were stupid enough to believe in that lousy SciFi as "religion". He clearly realized that his SciFi work was just crap, and that to make money one has to start a religion.

You can check his quote here, for example. It plainly says:

You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion.

And you really don't find it suspect that a failed SciFi writer not only says that, but then goes ahead and really starts a religion, which is of course based purely on bad SciFi crap? Really?

Whoever thinks that Scientology or Freezone is about "teach everyone to recognize the difference between truth and fiction" has simply lost every connection to reality.

But then, fools and their money are parted easily....

 

[Christian Klippel]

The Freezone doesn't sell. The Freezone just says "This is your next step. It will cost $x dollars.

Haha. It really needs a massive disconnect from reality not to see the irony in what you just wrote. But i guess that's one of the prerequisites one must have to join that cult: almost complete loss mental capacity.

 

[Chris L]

It's pretty well documented.

See Janet Reitmans book 'Inside Scientology' - needless to say it's a pretty convoluted story.

I have, and it is. One of the more interesting things she talks about (and something I had never considered) is how LRH and the CoS use language as a programing device. They have all these odd terms for everything and even the terms that are standard English words don't have standard meanings. If you marinate long enough in the vocabulary, you lose the ability to even conceptualize life beyond the church. Very clever and very sinister. It sounds like something an SP would come up with.

 

[Myriad]

Personally, it matters a lot more to me whether or not the individual practices of freezone Scientology are healthy (safe, effective, and situated within a morally functional community) than whether its mythical narratives make sense. The Church of Scientology itself does not appear to be a physically or psychologically safe environment, but that seems to have a lot more to do with the way the organization conducts itself than with the supposed substance of the program. The actual individual practices of Scientology do not appear to be the problem.

What I've tried to learn from Justinian in past threads (without success) is how he feels freezone Scientology compares with other analogously comprehensive and widespread systems of practice that are also intended to promote individuals' well-being and social fitness. The comparison could be on any relevant measure including overall efficacy, broadness of efficacy (how well it holds up between different types of people), safety, time, and cost.

How does freezone Scientology rank as a system of practice in comparison to Wicca, Hermeticism, mainstream Christianity, mystical Christianity, mainstream Islam, Sufiism, Shinto, yoga, TM, animism, spiritual environmentalism, military discipline, martial arts, Classical stoicism, Freudian psychotherapy, modern (pharamaceutical) psychiatry, Zen, Taoism, salesmanship systems, and especially, skepticism?

Is there a case for why a practicing pagan, priest, or skeptic would be better off with Scientology instead?

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[Christian Klippel]

Personally, it matters a lot more to me whether or not the individual practices of freezone Scientology are healthy (safe, effective, and situated within a morally functional community) than whether its mythical narratives make sense. The Church of Scientology itself does not appear to be a physically or psychologically safe environment, but that seems to have a lot more to do with the way the organization conducts itself than with the supposed substance of the program. The actual individual practices of Scientology do not appear to be the problem.

Well, i'm not so sure that the practices are not the problem. After all they involve a lot of brainwashing. For example all that fuzz with giving words a completely new meaning, which makes it close to impossible to have a sane conversation with people outside that cult.

Or how they are teaching a pretty insane way of communications in general, all according to Hubbards doctrine. To me it looks like they take people who just happen to have a slightly distroted view of reality, and then mess their heads up completely.

After all, i consider mental health as important as physical health.

Greetings,

Chris

 

[Justinian2]

A joke: You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion.

Even though Scientology during LRH's life had amassed the equivalent of 3.5 billion dollars by today's standards, I don't see that he used the wealth for his own sake or that of his family.

Anyway, the easiest way to make money today is via capital gains in the stock market.

Am I to assume that a few misquotes from his detractors are anything but fiction?
Or am I to believe the 7 pound synopsis of Scientology known as "The Scientology Handbook"?

I heard the detractor statements when I read the book "Messiah or Madman? - Bent Corydon" written long, long ago. That is a partial truth about LRH.

The truth about the religion is in the 7 pound synopsis of Scientology known as "The Scientology Handbook". This is the only truth. Yeah, the world has Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny too. Scientology has paradigms that work. The bible has allegories that teach. The government has ways to make you believe that you should be subservient to the desires of the elected politician and the president.

 

[Justinian2]

If someone said the Taj Mahal wasn't splendid because the builder said such and such, would anyone believe him?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Taj_Mahal_2012.jpg/280px-

Read the 781 page "The Scientology Handbook" for the synopsis of Scientology.

 

[DuvalHMFIC]

Just because a book weighs 7 pounds, or is almost 800 pages long, doesn't make it correct.

I'm not saying it's incorrect, either, I haven't read it so I wouldn't know. But you keep throwing those figures out there like the weight or number of pages is important.