General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[A'isha]

ANTPogo, we are still waiting for you to locate some still or newsreel images of the Auschwitz-Birkenau gas chambers taken during the liberation of the camps. Please hurry as your colleagues are getting worried they will have to explain why the Soviets would have ignored such important structures.

I've already done this...there's a picture of one right at the same webpage which has the picture of heaped bodies that Dogzilla didn't believe existed and still refuses to acknowledge.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Since when did the Soviets allow a little human suffering to get in the way of their ideological and military objectives?

There were about 7000 prisoners liberated by the 60th Army of the 1st Ukraine Front at the main camps of Auschwitz. Red Army medical corps in cooperation with the Polish Red Cross (mainly from Crakow but also from Warsaw and other cities) confronted and responded to a medical catastrophe of the first order with these prisoners. A number of Soviet field hospitals treated victims, as did a Polish Red Cross hospital established under the direction of Dr Josef Bellert; these improvised facilities cared for 4500 sick former inmates. Local residents also volunteered to work in the Red Cross hospital. A group of nuns was among those assisting the Soviet Medical Corps. The Polish Red Cross medical personnel and the Soviet doctors and nurses cooperated closely in view of the medical emergency.

The prisoners comprised more than 20 nationalities, 960 of the prisoners being Poles. There were over 200 children, many of them twins. Illnesses which the inmates suffered included those associated with starvation, dysentery being the leading diseases, and also tuberculosis.

Given the large number of patients, and the small group treating them, the medical personnel worked long hours, sometimes around the clock. During the first weeks, as conditions in Birkenau were poor, patients were transferred to impromptu housing in the brick buildings at the main camp. Mortality, especially from dysentery, was high at first. It took about two to three months for medical staff to stabilize the situation and move to regular shifts. Survivors with medical skills also assisted, as orderlies, nurses, and doctors, working under the direction of the Polish Red Cross and Soviet Medical Corps. Catholic clergy from Oscwiecim also assisted. Patients were discharged after three to four months of care, resulting in another emergent need - transportation and shelter for released former prisoners. Many patients were released into the local community, with small hospitals continuing treatment and a local order of nuns caring for some prisoners at their convent.

This picture of post-liberation events at Auschwitz may not comport well with Mr Traynor's biases and reflexes, but the medical and other effort to save prisoners at the Auschwitz complex is, unlike Mr Traynor's hip-shooting and incredulity, documented. E.g., the above notes are summarized from pp 219-228 of Andrzej Strzelecki's The Evacuation, Dismantling and Liberation of KL Auschwitz (2001). Deniers can continue to blow smoke out their nether parts - or they might, to make this discussion more interesting, actually consult sources or studies based on sources. It is, of course, their choice to make.

 

[LemmyCaution]

No one is trying wave out of anything except you.

Since when is documenting the genocide of Jews a Soviet ideological or military objective?

One of the strange, sad consequences of (nearly) everything being online is the belief, of some, that if something is not online it doesn't exist: I have already referred to Shneer's Through Soviet Jewish Eyes, which includes photographs (p 176) of victims of the Nazis' crimes at Auschwitz - a photograph of child's corpse, an emaciated survivor being examined by medical personnel. These were part of a photo-spread in Ogonyok, no. 11. (I can't link to this page, as it is not showing in Google books as I access Shneer's book.) This spread, which was constructed from photographs by Rafail Mazelev, one of three Soviet Jewish photographers (the other two were Mark Redkin and Vladimir Yudin) working at the liberated site, wasn't published until March 1945, weeks after the photographs were made, showing that documenting German atrocities - although not necessarily focusing on the Judeocide - remained a propaganda goal of the Soviets but perhaps not so urgent as other goals, given the time delay.

The text accompanying Mazelev's photographs gave the conclusions of the Soviet observers, which differ to ours in emphasis and detail, not to mention tone and style: "Here these German monsters tortured millions of people - Russians, Poles, Jews, French, Czechs, and Yugoslavs . . . In their attempt to maximize the efficiency and productivity of the death machine, the Germans . . . built gas chambers, used electric conveyors and shaft furnaces to incinerate the corpses in their so-called ovens. . . . In the photograph, on top: a general view of the camp - Birkenau [in a distance view]. Here there were four gigantic complexes in which hundreds of thousands [note the early Soviet estimate] of prisoners were exterminated with Zyklon gas. In the lower pictures: Soviet military doctor examines this engineer from Vienna, Rudolf Sherm, who was driven to this hopeless state. . . . On the left, corpses of tortured prisoners whom the Hitlerites did not manage to incinerate; in the foreground, corpse of a child who died from starvation of the camp." (p 175)

It would help if Mr Traynor and the others would at least try to mention facts somewhere along the way. I, for one, don't require that what they reference be online. Just that there be more than hot air behind their claims.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I've already done this...there's a picture of one right at the same webpage which has the picture of heaped bodies that Dogzilla didn't believe existed and still refuses to acknowledge.

http://portalwiedzy.onet.pl/140034,10,0,0,galeria_media.html

Interestingly - I'd missed this first time looking at ANTPogo's link - here http://portalwiedzy.onet.pl/140034,6,0,0,galeria_media.html is a photograph of one of the hospital facilities mentioned in my post above. And here http://portalwiedzy.onet.pl/140034,4,0,0,galeria_media.html are liberated prisoners, also photographed by Soviet photographers, in need of medical attention.

 

[000063]

We tried that, but you just misrepresent everything we say and continue lying.

Seconded. Dogzilla, you have been explicitly informed, multiple times, when you have been misrepresenting the positions of debunkers, and you just keep doing it.

We don't need to misrepresent what you say. It's just that when it's fed back to you from someone else's mouth in different words, you suddenly realize how silly it sounds, and rationalize it as a misrepresentation. A lot of CTs have this problem. Yet you seem to have no problem repeatedly "simplifying" others posts. In one recent case, you managed to get the argument almost entirely backward; we don't think Jews were murdered because they are missing, we think they are missing because they are murdered.

 

[000063]

How about you learn some new logical fallacies that you can attach to facts you don't like?

Why? You just keep making the same ones. Plus Appeal to Ignorance, Incredulity, Red Herring, and so on. I think it was Doc Terry who described Falsus in Uno, Falsus in Omnibus as the favorite tactic of you lot.

And for an example of "Red Herring", everyone note how Doggie doesn't actually say that I'm wrong. In fact, he rarely says anyone is wrong. by his own admission, all he has is incredulity.

And now you're just spinning nonsense from nothing. Where are you getting Russian motivations?

You made a post speculating on the motivations of Russians for performing certain acts. I asked for evidence, and you promptly backpedalled to say you were only making a claim about the acts themselves.

You asked me for evidence that photographs at Belsen showed skinny people or lots of dead bodies.

No, I did not, as I just told you.

There's a certain base knowledge people need to have to participate in these discussions. Knowing what somebody means when they say the Bulldozing Bodies of Belsen is one of those pieces of basic knowledge.

No it isn't. It's an idiomatic phrase. The only Google result I can really find with it is this thread.

How about you prove to me there's a photograph of US soldiers raising the flag on Iwo Jima?

Okay.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_the_Flag_on_Iwo_Jima
http://www.iwojima.com/raising/raisingb.htm
http://www.montney.com/marine/iwo.htm
http://photography.about.com/od/famousphotographers/qt/flagraisingoveriwojimacontroversy.htm

You might also want to check your local library.

You believe that holocaust denial is a conspiracy to rehabilitate Naziism and make it acceptable again so we can take over and kill all the Jews?

No, nor have I ever claimed such. In my entire life.

And you're the skeptic who demands evidence there were no gas chambers before you'll believe there weren't any?

Yes. I've seen the evidence that there was. In order to refute that, you need to refute the existing evidence, and/or provide contrary evidence. Which, by your own admission, you can't do.

...

I haven't refused to read the Jaeger report. I've read it many times. It's one of the shortest documents in the holocaust liturgy. If you want to talk about it, feel free. If you say something interesting maybe I'll chime in. But don't expect me to start the conversation.
...

That's funny. Why, then, were you asking questions not a month ago about information that is easily found in the report, and when people pointed out that it was easily found in the report, you tried some sort of "Gotcha!" by crowing about them not answering your questions?

OK, I'll address that. If anybody is interested is seeing the intellectual bankruptcy of the holocaust story, check this out to see what passes for scholarship in hololand. There are people who say they are skeptics AND who say there's a picture of a mass grave with 700,000 bodies.

Another example of Red Herring, everyone; Dogzilla uses mockery and incredulity to talk around the claim that he was wrong.

...
But still, you would think that a place like Treblinka, where murder occurred on such an unimaginable scale, would have presented an opportunity for a photograph of something incriminating.

Dogzilla you are talking rubbish again at this site you will find a picture of a mass grave at Treblinka

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/ar/treblinka.html

Now show us some REAL history and not your denial delusionist fantasy

Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

Also, who has claimed there's a mass grave with 700,000 bodies? Why do you keep saying people make certain claims and never actually providing evidence of people making these claims? Are you just spouting BS and incredulity to distract from the fact that you were proven wrong? Did you watch the Holocaust Denial Vids, as Clay demands debunkers do?

 

[000063]

00063, I didn’t answer your two other questions from post #4496 as I considered them to be spam. For a quiet life and to shut you up for a while here are the answers to those questions.

And what winter lasts nine months, pray tell?

A2. No

Um.

My point was that claiming that "the winter" hit everyone hard is prima facie wrong since winters don't last nine months. It's also an evasion of the claim that the Nazis were actively trying to kill their captives.

A3. I am not responsible for the conduct of other posters on this forum.

Not what I asked. I asked for your position on dodging questions when performed by someone on your side. You have no problem decrying it when Debunkers do it. But you can't even respond to the question whether you condone it when Deniers do it.

I like how you went back to my first post to you in order to evade the questions of my latest post, and you still don't actually answer the questions you evaded in the first place. I assume you have the same criteria for relevance as Dogzilla; "if I don't like it, it's not relevant, even when it directly discusses a claim I made."

You also do not actually dispute my claim that you have double standards, or that you did not acknowledge ANTPogo's claim, or that I was not lying, or my clarification of what I meant.

When have I ever demanded anyone should watch revisionist videos? I hope your are not attempting to misrepresent me again.

Ambiguous/poor phrasing. I meant that between the two of you, the claim that debunkers have to watch the HDV has been advanced, but no reciprocal has been made for deniers.

 

[LemmyCaution]

So I missed where Dogzilla expressed, er, incredulity regarding so-called missed opportunities for death camp photographs.

Another example of Red Herring, everyone; Dogzilla uses mockery and incredulity to talk around the claim that he was wrong.

Originally Posted by Dogzilla View Post
...
But still, you would think that a place like Treblinka, where murder occurred on such an unimaginable scale, would have presented an opportunity for a photograph of something incriminating.

Which led you to ask, pertinently . . .

Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

In addition to the obvious assumptions one would make given the nature of a) modern states dealing with b) their secret operations of a c) criminal nature, there was an oath taken by camp SS for, shall we say, "places like Treblinka":

I have been thoroughly informed and instructed by SS Hauptstuermfuhrer Hoefle, as Commander of the main division of "Einsatz Reinhard" of the SS and Police Leader in the District of Lublin:

1. that I may not under any circumstances pass on any form of information, verbally or in writing, on the progress, procedure or incidents in the evacuation of Jews to any person outside the circle of the "Einsatz Reinhard" staff;

2. that the process of the evacuation of Jews is a subject that comes under "Secret Reich Document," in accordance with censorship regulation Verschl. V. a; . . .

4. that there is an absolute prohibition on photography in the camps of "Einsatz Reinhard"; . . .

I am familiar with the above Regulations and Laws and am aware of the responsibilities imposed upon me by the task with which I have been entrusted. I promise to observe them to the best of my knowledge and conscience. I am aware that the obligation to maintain secrecy continues even after I have left the Service.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/operation-reinhard/reinhard-oath.shtml

Unless Dogzilla believes that the Jews shipped to "a place like Treblinka" came as tourists with their Minoxes, Rolleiflexes, and Leitzes hanging from straps around their necks, it is hard to know what he is getting at - other than incredulity and mockery.

 

[thedopefishlives]

So I missed where Dogzilla expressed, er, incredulity regarding so-called missed opportunities for death camp photographs.
Which led you to ask, pertinently . . .


In addition to the obvious assumptions one would make given the nature of a) modern states dealing with b) their secret operations of a c) criminal nature, there was an oath taken by camp SS for, shall we say, "places like Treblinka":



http://www.holocaust-history.org/operation-reinhard/reinhard-oath.shtml

Unless Dogzilla believes that the Jews shipped to "a place like Treblinka" came as tourists with their Minoxes, Rolleiflexes, and Leitzes hanging from straps around their necks, it is hard to know what he is getting at - other than incredulity and mockery.

Given the way the thread had been going, with references to the Soviets not being able to wind a watch, let alone operate a camera, I believe Dogzilla was actually referring to Soviet photography of the death camps. But there he runs into the pesky problem of Sonderaktion 1005, which I wouldn't be surprised to find out he knows nothing of.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Given the way the thread had been going, with references to the Soviets not being able to wind a watch, let alone operate a camera, I believe Dogzilla was actually referring to Soviet photography of the death camps. But there he runs into the pesky problem of Sonderaktion 1005, which I wouldn't be surprised to find out he knows nothing of.

Right you are. I went back and found the full reference (and reminded myself of the pitfalls of reading out-of-context material):

So it wasn't Russian backwardness that made it impossible for them to take a picture comparable to the Bulldozing Bodies of Belsen. It's just that the Industrialized Murder Factories didn't look as bad. But still, you would think that a place like Treblinka, where murder occurred on such an unimaginable scale, would have presented an opportunity for a photograph of something incriminating.

Which betrays, as you say, as startling a misunderstanding of the history of Treblinka as I imagined, only focused on the camp’s afterlife instead of its operation.

To consider what the Soviets found at Treblinka, as photo opportunities, one must recall a) the cremations of corpses in mid-1943, b) the prisoners' revolt and cleanup operation thereafter, including the final cremations and destruction of buildings, c) Globocnik's removal and delivery of assets stolen from the victims, d) Strebel's farmhouse and the planting of lupin and the plowing of fields, leaving what Bay calls "the sanitized remnant of Treblinka," e) the looting of the site by locals, evidence of this recorded later by Rachela Auerbach, f) the Soviets' overrunning of the camp in fall 1944. As Andrew Mathis has written, "the camp had been non-operational for a year by the time the Red Army arrived." This was "a year after the mass killing stopped and nine months after the camp had been completely destroyed by the SS." http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/12/red-army-red-herrings.html (note: this is from the HC links previously posted debunking denierbud's videos) The destruction of the camp is corroborated by US aerial reconnaissance photos of the area made in May 1944.

 

[000063]

...
You made a post speculating on the motivations of Russians for performing certain acts. I asked for evidence, and you promptly backpedalled to say you were only making a claim about the acts themselves.
...

Just for proof;

Yes. I'm sorry I said the Russians don't know how to use cameras. They did know how to use cameras and they were as capable of taking pictures as the British and the Americans were. Maybe they were not as adept at staging photos as the Americans were. Clearly, the Russians were hobbled by having liberated the death camps where the Jews were murdered en masse. The Russians didn't find hundreds of starving prisoners who could crawl onto the bunk beds for a photo op nor did they find the corpses of emaciated typhus victims scattered around the camp that they could put into a pile and push into a hole in the ground. They did the best they could with their hair brushes and prosthetic devices. But the hollow cheeks and eyes caused by starvation and the blotches caused by typhus gave the dead bodies in the ordinary concentration camps an appearance of death that ordinary citizens back home in Britain and especially America had never seen before. It was better than anything Psy Warfare had hoped to find!
....

I claimed Doggie was just making stuff up.

...

Do you really need proof that starving prisoners were photographed on three level bunk beds at the western camps?

or that emaciated corpses were pushed into mass graves?

or that Russians took pictures of ordinary personal care or household items in piles?

or that emaciated typhus victims present an unusually disagreeable picture of death?
...

Note that this is not what Doggie originally claimed. Even the actual word count is shorter.

He also makes the curious distinction "ordinary" concentration camps, which necessarily means that he believes there were extraordinary camps. Curious.

 

[Belz...]

Team holocaust

It's so much easier to hand-wave arguments and evidence when you can conveniently group all opposition together in a neat box with a ridiculous label, isn't it ?

 

[Belz...]

00063, I didn’t answer your two other questions from post #4496 as I considered them to be spam. For a quiet life and to shut you up for a while here are the answers to those questions.

A2. No

A3. I am not responsible for the conduct of other posters on this forum.

I consider this post to be spam and I can therefore safely ignore it. Phew !

 

[Belz...]

The attentive reader notes that you are routinely reduced to basing your defence of the holocaust lie on a game of semantics. In short, sir, you are exposed as a charlatan with an agenda.

After this weekend’s shenanigans I am left wondering if there are any honest amateur historians in the exterminationist camp at JREF.

ANTPogo, we are still waiting for you to locate some still or newsreel images of the Auschwitz-Birkenau gas chambers taken during the liberation of the camps. Please hurry as your colleagues are getting worried they will have to explain why the Soviets would have ignored such important structures.


PS. There is newsreel footage of Jodl signing the surrender. This forum is not a legal document and my use of the word “video” earlier rather than “movie” or “newsreel”, etc. is only a calamitous error in the eyes of a pedant.

The attentive reader will note that the poster quoted here has not responded to the questions posed. They will also note that this is a typical behaviour of the denier when taken out of its natural habitat.

 

[Nick Terry]

The attentive reader will note that the poster quoted here has not responded to the questions posed. They will also note that this is a typical behaviour of the denier when taken out of its natural habitat.

Correction: deniers don't actually respond to questions when in their natural habitat, either.

 

[Belz...]

One of the strange, sad consequences of (nearly) everything being online is the belief, of some, that if something is not online it doesn't exist:

To be fair, everything should be online.

 

[Belz...]

Correction: deniers don't actually respond to questions when in their natural habitat, either.

In their natural habitat, the skeptic is not a usual predator, Nick.

 

[Nick Terry]

In their natural habitat, the skeptic is not a usual predator, Nick.

I've seen deniers duck questions from each other, never mind noobs, fence-sitters or the merely curious.

 

[Border Reiver]

To be fair, everything should be online.

There's just that little problem of server space and time to get it up there. Maybe by the time our kids are grown, most written docs will be available.

Until then we'll just have to keep using those printed thingies, what are they again, oh yeah - books.

 

[Chaos]

I've seen deniers duck questions from each other, never mind noobs, fence-sitters or the merely curious.

They can´t afford not practicing that sort of behavior, even in the safest environment - or else they´re going to risk slipping up someday and giving a skeptic an honest answer:

"No, I know exactly what the evidence says - but how are we ever going to be in a position to enact our Nazi agenda if we don´t continuously lie through our teeth about the Holocaust?"