Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[crimresearch]

Do we know this for sure? Other reports said he was carrying a 9mm. Or do you mean that after he shot and killed someone, he went out and bought another handgun?

Interestingly, that unusual 5.7 cartridge has been adopted by the Secret Service and a number of police departments*. When it was introduced some critics complained that the high-velocity bullets could penetrate ballistic armor. It also is the same weapon that the Fort Hood shooter used to kill 13 people. The magazines hold up to 20 rounds. What does it say about GZ's mindset that he thought this particular handgun -- above all others -- would be the right choice for concealed carry and home defense?
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.7x28mm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Hood_shooting

Why would we think that's the reason he bought this one?

Whether the presumed assassination attempt ever happens or not, I don't see the logic in having less bullets and weaker bullets if one wants to prepare for the worst.

As you note, there is nothing really remarkable about it, it is in use by all sorts of civilian agencies and private citizens.

 

[crimresearch]

What I mean is... Will somebody please explain to me why this case is so complex? It seems like a cut & dry case of murder 2/ manslaughter to me.
I know why it can't be murder 1.

And what part of the explanation that you've been given, are you unsure of?

 

[Unabogie]

The drawing is *not to scale. So upon further thought, we really need from the corner of the house to the sidewalk and/or 'tee' to do accurate measurements.

Anyway, I think the not to scale helps account for the fact the phone looks 15' away, but actually isn't.

And I think the distance is somewhere between 22 and 40, but I don't know exactly where.

By the way, where does it say it's not to scale? If it isn't to scale, we shouldn't be using it for anything really, aside from the general locations of things.

I wonder why, if it's not to scale, they still list some distances? Especially distances from the corner of one of the houses to the spot of the shooting? My Pythagorean theorem says we already know the opposite and the hypotenuse. So they included some weird distances to show us.

Anyway, we at least know that Trayvon was shot right at the edge between the two houses. We can use that Google distance calc to see how far that would be from the T, where George claims he went down with one punch.

 

[Unabogie]

This site here calls that distance 48'

48.522

http://www.daftlogic.com/projects-google-maps-distance-calculator.htm

Absolutely not 20 feet. Can we agree on that now? We know the exact location of the body, so I think this issue is settled.

 

[sgtbaker]

This is something that bothers me as well. If he's being straddled, wouldn't that block the gun away from both of them? Wouldn't the "straddler's" left leg be right on top of the gun?

It's a hard question to answer, without knowing the exact position they both were in. If TM was sitting on his hips, than yes, it would be damn near impossible to even see the gun, never mind attempting to grab it. However, if for any number of reasons, TM was positioned further down, say on his thighs, then the gun would be visible. Assuming a struggle took place, it's plausible to think that they were not in the same position, the entire time. According to Zimmerman's version, TM noticed the gun when GZ tried to wiggle off the side walk. If TM was sitting, full weight, on his hips, he wouldn't have had much wiggle room but if he was further down on his thighs, he would have been able to bend his body, potentially exposing the gun. I think, though, this question can only be answered in hypothetical. I wouldn't be able to argue, either way.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

You know, I appreciate this post. And while I don't actually expect everyone to agree with me, I do personally find his story to be ludicrous. But again, I appreciate your post.

Same here, thanks for the thoughtful response. I'm going to read your post again, for now I am quoting the single part where I think we are the furthest apart.

And then finally, no one can ever explain WHY Trayvon would attack an older man who was scaring him...If evidence had come out that Trayvon had exhibited this kind of aggression before, I'd look at the case differently.

It's been my experience and observation in life that it's very common that people who are hot heads or who have a violent streak may have little to no criminal record to show for it, all the more so if they are younger. On top of that, under the right set of circumstances tempers can flare, even for people that normally aren't violent. I can imagine both of these people experiencing the event that night from two totally different perspectives, each seeing different things. Maybe GZ thinks he's being accosted by a criminal, maybe TM in turn thinks he's being accosted. Either way, I think the big difference between our viewpoints is that as the events unfolded that night, to me it doesn't take much of a stretch for me to imagine EITHER of them starting the fight.

 

[Unabogie]

It's a hard question to answer, without knowing the exact position they both were in. If TM was sitting on his hips, than yes, it would be damn near impossible to even see the gun, never mind attempting to grab it. However, if for any number of reasons, TM was positioned further down, say on his thighs, then the gun would be visible. Assuming a struggle took place, it's plausible to think that they were not in the same position, the entire time. According to Zimmerman's version, TM noticed the gun when GZ tried to wiggle off the side walk. If TM was sitting, full weight, on his hips, he wouldn't have had much wiggle room but if he was further down on his thighs, he would have been able to bend his body, potentially exposing the gun. I think, though, this question can only be answered in hypothetical. I wouldn't be able to argue, either way.

If Trayvon was that far down, then how was he able to repeatedly bash his head against the concrete? Did he have unusually long arms?

 

[Bob001]

Why would we think that's the reason he bought this one?

I don't pretend to be able to read GZ's mind. (If I could, I would just go ahead and solve this case!) But as I posted above, this is an unusual, large and expensive weapon that was designed for military purposes and has been adopted by a number of law enforcement agencies. It first came to public attention in connection with the Fort Hood shootings. I mentioned that by way of identifying it, not to compare GZ to Maj. N. But it's not necessarily the best for most civilian purposes. For one thing, law enforcement has access to an armor-piercing round that is not available to civilians. The civilian ammunition is hard to find. I simply wonder if this apparent police wannabe went into a gun shop, and instead of saying "I need a weapon appropriate to carry concealed and protect my family" -- like the one he owned previously -- he said, "Hey guys, what's the hot lick for the cops these days?"

I also think it's a little odd that after killing a kid he went right out and bought another handgun. That seems to indicate a lack of perspective and insight.

 

[crimresearch]

It's a hard question to answer, without knowing the exact position they both were in. If TM was sitting on his hips, than yes, it would be damn near impossible to even see the gun, never mind attempting to grab it. However, if for any number of reasons, TM was positioned further down, say on his thighs, then the gun would be visible. Assuming a struggle took place, it's plausible to think that they were not in the same position, the entire time. According to Zimmerman's version, TM noticed the gun when GZ tried to wiggle off the side walk. If TM was sitting, full weight, on his hips, he wouldn't have had much wiggle room but if he was further down on his thighs, he would have been able to bend his body, potentially exposing the gun. I think, though, this question can only be answered in hypothetical. I wouldn't be able to argue, either way.

That's all plausible. I'd add again that there is no legal requirement that the threat be real.

Martin doesn't have to have been actually reaching for the gun, nor is Zimmerman required to calculate in midstruggle that it would be impossible for the gun to be seen or grabbed.

The jury is supposed to place themselves in that situation and decide if a mere downard motion would cause them to fear a gun grab.

 

[crimresearch]

I don't pretend to be able to read GZ's mind. (If I could, I would just go ahead and solve this case!) But as I posted above, this is an unusual, large and expensive weapon that was designed for military purposes and has been adopted by a number of law enforcement agencies. It first came to public attention in connection with the Fort Hood shootings. I mentioned that by way of identifying it, not to compare GZ to Maj. N. But it's not necessarily the best for most civilian purposes. For one thing, law enforcement has access to an armor-piercing round that is not available to civilians. The civilian ammunition is hard to find. I simply wonder if this apparent police wannabe went into a gun shop, and instead of saying "I need a weapon appropriate to carry concealed and protect my family" -- like the one he owned previously -- he said, "Hey guys, what's the hot lick for the cops these days?"

I also think it's a little odd that after killing a kid he went right out and bought another handgun. That seems to indicate a lack of perspective and insight.

So you aren't buying the notion that he went into a gun store and said 'Hey what would you carry if you thought that there was a bounty on your head?', and took what the salesman offered as the latest in civilian weaponry?

Because that's basically what Hassan did, except for the bounty part.

 

[Unabogie]

Just to try and use the numbers they gave here in that map...

http://ostermiller.org/calc/triangle.html

You can use this to get some distances.

The edge of the sidewalk is 29 ft. That's the adjacent. The distance to Trayvon's feet is 45'.

That gives you 34 feet from the edge of the first house to the body. And then you add the distance from the T to the first house, which we can stipulate as 10'. That's still 45' to his feet from the T.

Math is fun!

 

[TheL8Elvis]

If Trayvon was that far down, then how was he able to repeatedly bash his head against the concrete? Did he have unusually long arms?

Was there a requirement that they remain stationary during the struggle ? I am also going to think quite a bit of latitude would be reasonable in how a person recalls a fight ... not getting beaten/killed being the number one thing in your mind, not taking mental notes on what happened and when.

 

[Unabogie]

Was there a requirement that they remain stationary during the struggle ? I am also going to think quite a bit of latitude would be reasonable in how a person recalls a fight ... not getting beaten/killed being the number one thing in your mind, not taking mental notes on what happened and when.

Care to check my math above? I feel I have sufficiently demolished the claim that the body is 20 feet from the T.

 

[sgtbaker]

That's all plausible. I'd add again that there is no legal requirement that the threat be real.

Martin doesn't have to have been actually reaching for the gun, nor is Zimmerman required to calculate in midstruggle that it would be impossible for the gun to be seen or grabbed.

The jury is supposed to place themselves in that situation and decide if a mere downard motion would cause them to fear a gun grab.

I do agree but if I were on a jury and it were proven that he made that up, I would have a hard time believing that he was reasonably in fear for his life. Not because the beating by itself isn't enough to reasonably be in fear but if he made that up, it would be a good indicator that he, himself, didn't believe the beating was severe enough to warrant use of a deadly weapon.

 

[triforcharity]

Yesterday, while driving home from work, I challenged myself to name the streets that intersect mine but I've never driven down. I couldn't. The idea that Zimmerman couldn't remember the street names isn't that implausible to me anymore.

Here's the only problem that I have with GZ not being able to recall a street name.

There's a total of 3 street names in his entire neighborhood, and he had assuming he was actually a NW captain, should know those 3 street names.

I can't really offer MY experiences, because I know just about every street in my city, and their major cross streets, and their parallels. I have to. So for me, I can't really try to give my personal experience WRT: naming street names.

It just seems...implausible to me. But, TheL8Elvis made a good point about brain farts.

 

[marplots]

Which is not the distance from the T, since that map shows the homes at 29' wide, which is almost exactly what I guessed!

It shows the body as almost exactly on the property line between the first and second house. So add to that the distance from the sidewalk to the house and you have 45'.

Does the discrepancy go away when "the T" doesn't precisely mean where the sidewalks join, but more generally that area? In the same way I might say I was "at the intersection" just to distinguish my location from down one road or the other. A better example might be, "I was by my car" to mean anywhere in the parking lot close to my vehicle.

I understand this implies that GZ was following TM farther than he might have wanted to say. Or, if not following with TM in sight, at least trying to find him.

 

[sgtbaker]

If Trayvon was that far down, then how was he able to repeatedly bash his head against the concrete? Did he have unusually long arms?

It's not that far down, though, GZ has a short body. He would just have to be down far enough that TM's rear end was just below GZ's groin. TM has a few inches on GZ so his reach would be longer.

When my fiance and I play wrestle/grapple, he gets on top and puts his weight on my thighs so I can't put my feet down to try and push him off me or push myself up, out from under him. He can easily grab my wrists and hold them on the ground, just above my shoulders and he is only 4" taller than me. That's the only reason why I can visualize it. The only point I am trying to make, though is there is not only one possible position for either of them to be in.

 

[Cylinder]

Absolutely not 20 feet. Can we agree on that now? We know the exact location of the body, so I think this issue is settled.

The CST actually measured the distances from the landmarks. You can't just handwave that away.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Care to check my math above? I feel I have sufficiently demolished the claim that the body is 20 feet from the T.

I will defer to you until I have a bit more time to focus on the distances. I admit my earlier post about distances appears to be incorrect. I initially overlooked the not to scale thing.

I agree, it's more than 20'

 

[Unabogie]

The CST actually measured the distances from the landmarks. You can't just handwave that away.

I'm not. The place where George claimed he was attacked does not appear to be one of those landmarks. So all we're left with is the numbers as they are written.

I used a little trig and showed that the distance from the T to the body is around 45 feet. I could be wrong, but I'm using your numbers. Then, I also showed the same thing on that Google maps calculator, and that also showed around 45 feet.

It may not be EXACTLY 45 feet, but it's not 20 feet. That's impossible.